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  1. #61
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    Nebraska, I believe, OneGrayPony. And yes, it was repealed in rather short order.
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris



  2. #62
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    Toddlers and young children ARE given up for adoption. My girlfriend adopted her son at 6, he is now in his 30's and very well adjusted. When I was looking into adoption we were looking at a 12 year old. There is no reason to parent if you are not enjoying it and want out. Social services will find parents for you.

    I certainly would take any child no questions. Kids are tough and deserve the best, anytime anyone wants out I will step in.


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  3. #63
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    Thanks SNL! I couldn't remember enough to construct a useful search lol!



  4. #64
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    No, there's no governmental agency where you can just go and give them back. At least in my state, DSS will not get involved unless there's abuse and/or neglect. Which is exactly right, because that's their governmental mandate.

    If you abuse and/or neglect your children, then DSS will take them. If not, then you will need to arrange a private adoption.

    And, forgive me for mentioning this but I feel I should based on some nightmare experiences I've seen - if you adopt a child who's been abused and find you cannot mange him or her? Same rule applies. Nowhere to give them back. I find these situations particularly heartbreaking. Someone trying to do good adopts a troubled child, then that child sets fire to the house or kills the pets or harms a family member - and suddenly the government agency you got them from is like - whatever. Not my problem. Keep them or we'll charge you with neglect.
    Last edited by pAin't_Misbehavin'; Jul. 5, 2014 at 08:19 PM.


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  5. #65
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    My guess is that if this murderer wanted to sell that kid, then there would have been people lined up around the block to adopt him, and pay well to do it. This is so like the Susan Smith case, where she rolled her car into the water, and let those two little boys drown because she wanted to be free of them.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White


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  6. #66
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    I've read stories recently about the underground message boards where people who have an adopted child they don't want, match with people who want the child, and just give them away. Many are foreign adoptions, or older children, and some of the kids don't even know they're going to be dumped on new people until it happens. This is unregulated, and there is no paper work involved, and from what I read many of the 'adopters' who take the children have neglected and abused them. http://www.reuters.com/investigates/...#article/part1
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White



  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanM View Post
    I've read stories recently about the underground message boards where people who have an adopted child they don't want, match with people who want the child, and just give them away. Many are foreign adoptions, or older children, and some of the kids don't even know they're going to be dumped on new people until it happens. This is unregulated, and there is no paper work involved, and from what I read many of the 'adopters' who take the children have neglected and abused them. http://www.reuters.com/investigates/...#article/part1
    Or worse.

    I have 3 grown kids and no, I would never have given them up.
    But you don't know what it's like to be a parent till you become one. Add that maybe to becoming a single parent and maybe losing a job and sometimes stuff happens and maybe the child has issues.
    Yeah, I can see someone wanting to bail, particularly if they had the child to satisfy outside pressure.
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  8. #68
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    I used to read on some home schooling message boards and some of the parents were HS'ing because their kids had psychological issues. I couldn't believe what some of them had to endure, some kids had been adopted and had MAJOR behavior problems, like killing the family pets and abusing other kids in the house problems. And very few resources or support. Can not imagine.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” Stephen R. Covey


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  9. #69
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    Yes, I understand some of the children are very damaged, and the parents have no outside support. However, some of the secondary adopters have been pedophiles, and convicted abusers, and still keep getting new victims. I think the procedure to reverse an adoption is very complicated, and if you aren't given authority to cancel the adoption, then you are responsible for their care until they grow up. Some of the stories by the children, and the reporter's investigations were heart breaking.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White



  10. #70
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    My post followed yours but it wasn't intended as a justification for giving kids away on some sort of craigslist for children; only that I was remembering the horrible circumstances that some adoptive parents found themselves in. I should have been more clear.
    Last edited by cowboymom; Jul. 5, 2014 at 11:11 PM. Reason: clarity
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” Stephen R. Covey



  11. #71
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    No, I understood what you meant. I know you weren't justifying anything these people did. I was just amazed at the scope of the underground rehoming network, and how much it happens. I was also surprised that there was no way to terminate the adoption without a judge's permission.

    I remember an article in Texas Monthly years ago, about a program called (if I recall it correctly) Wednesday's Child, where older foster children eligible for adoption were advertised. The state of Texas was being sued by several parents who adopted children with horrible psychological and behavioral, and even criminal issues that were adopted as someone with no problem. These parents claimed the state authorities were unwilling to give the promised help, and refused to help at all. One couple lived in terror of the adoptee coming back to kill them, because he had apparently tried before, from what they said.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White



  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanM View Post
    I've read stories recently about the underground message boards where people who have an adopted child they don't want, match with people who want the child, and just give them away. Many are foreign adoptions, or older children, and some of the kids don't even know they're going to be dumped on new people until it happens. This is unregulated, and there is no paper work involved, and from what I read many of the 'adopters' who take the children have neglected and abused them. http://www.reuters.com/investigates/...#article/part1
    Horrifying and fascinating. Thanks for sharing, JanM
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanM View Post
    No, I understood what you meant. I know you weren't justifying anything these people did. I was just amazed at the scope of the underground rehoming network, and how much it happens. I was also surprised that there was no way to terminate the adoption without a judge's permission.

    I remember an article in Texas Monthly years ago, about a program called (if I recall it correctly) Wednesday's Child, where older foster children eligible for adoption were advertised. The state of Texas was being sued by several parents who adopted children with horrible psychological and behavioral, and even criminal issues that were adopted as someone with no problem. These parents claimed the state authorities were unwilling to give the promised help, and refused to help at all. One couple lived in terror of the adoptee coming back to kill them, because he had apparently tried before, from what they said.
    I understand and agree with not being able to just terminate an adoption (since an adopted kid is *your* kid, just like one you birthed is), but it's terrible if US agencies lie. How is it any help for the child to be adopted out without the new parents being aware of the issues? That just leads to frustration and anger on all sides. In cases where the agency can be shown to have suppressed info like that, I think the adoption should be able to be reversed.

    For out-of-country adoptions, well, you take your chances. Just as unfortunate, but it's unlikely that the foreign agencies will play ball if they don't feel like it.
    Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia


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  14. #74
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    Then there are the foster families who use and abuse children. I learned that while trying a cruelty to children case where a child had been burned and beaten for years. The social worker explained to me that the $ made by families in GA who took in foster kids was used for the families to live on, and some of the kids were abused. Eye opening as I'd thought that fostering was done by people who loved kids. Instead, the money is good in GA, and pays the mortgage, etc.

    When I retired and moved to the coast, I, let me be somewhat subtle here as some Cothers are friends with these people, I boarded C&C somewhere where the people had prior to my moving there had something like 28 or 32 foster kids over the years. Who were home schooled, and then who worked at the location. One Saturday the woman told me that the husband had been falsely accused of molesting some of the kids. Uh, I'd worked in a profession for decades where a lot of adults had never told when they were molested as children. So i believe that so many kids are molested that we never hear from or that people, including prosecutors, don't care about. So I said that to the woman. Then I learned from people there that a child who boarded her horse there had reported to her parents that the husband had tried to molest her, so that family moved their horse elsewhere. Years later I learned that the old farrier had taken one of the kids on Saturdays to work with him and paid the kid and bought him lunch because he felt so badly for that kid being treated badly in front of him when he was shoeing there. When that kid graduated from high school, he joined the navy. A few years later, he wrote a letter to the old farrier thanking him for being so nice to him and giving him those saturdays away from that foster home, because he was able to survive the foster years he spent there, graduate from high school, and go into the navy, thanks to the kindness of the old farrier.

    so yes, there are emotionally disturbed kids who are adopted. But there are also good kids who are abused in foster homes. And I'm sure some of them end up adopted. (Oh yeah, the couple who fostered the 28 or 32 kids over years complained to me that not one of those kids every contacted them again after they went to other foster homes. Let's guess why.)


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  15. #75
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    C&C, do you know why foster kids seem to move so frequently from family to family? Do foster families tend to specialize in certain age ranges, so the kids age out? It would seem that barring adoption, a stable foster situation would be the next best thing, rather than frequent changes.
    Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia



  16. #76
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    In my state, it's highly unusual for a kid to spend more than eighteen months in foster care and a year is more the norm.

    After a year, if the parent hasn't got his/her act together and done what s/he needs to do to get the kid back, the state will file a termination of parental rights action so the kids can be freed for adoption. Actually, the state can file TPR anytime, but usually unless the parent is a repeat player, they'll get a year to complete their treatment plan and get a job and stable housing. If they're pretty close to completion after a year, I can usually get them another six month extension. After that, though, they're looking at a TPR.

    The result is a shift away from professional foster homes - who, for the most part, were people who needed the money and considered raising children an acceptable way to earn it (although there are the horrible exceptions). Instead, most foster homes nowadays are fostering because they want to adopt children. In most of the cases I'm involved in these days, the child is placed right from the start with a parent who would be a potential adopter if the child is eventually freed for adoption.

    Except in the cases of those children who require higher maintenance. They are generally older - pre-teens or teenagers - and they go to foster homes who are specially trained in how to manage high risk kids. These placements often "disrupt" as they call it, and the kids are moved either to another in-home placement who might be better able to handle them, or to a group home if the child is deemed too disruptive for a family setting.



  17. #77
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    There is going to be a jury trial, right? No way I could serve on that jury. Trying to be fair and impartial to the parents would just not be possible for me.


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  18. #78
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    I had both a teen male friend and a family member in foster care during the '70's and both of them were almost professional users of the system - the boy had had a very hard time with a psychotic mother and unfortunately understood the foster system so even when his older brother took him in, when this boy couldn't have what he wanted he just shopped around and got a different foster home - granted he had to do a lot of work for a teenager, getting out the Yellow Pages and calling down the list till he found himself a spot, nonetheless he found a spot, and when he couldn't have what he wanted there he did it yet again.
    My family member had been adopted and when my relatives, her adopters as an infant, wouldn't allow her the freedoms she desired she wound up in juvenile hall and then in foster care. My relatives had to pay the state for the cost of her care - but they didn't have to see and condone her behaviors when she lived elsewhere, that was up to the foster home.

    But these were not small children, they were disruptive teenagers.

    I've only heard of small children being "farmed out" with relatives in the event of a serious problem with the parents - both my DH's grandfathers had a large young family and a parental death and both sent kids to live with aunts and uncles. Literally on the farm in a couple of cases.

    That Susan Smith person, she could have easily petitioned to grant custody to her boys' father and been rid of the kids to pursue the guy she was after - this fellow and his wife would have had a harder time, not least from relatives - but how in God's green earth did either of them expect their disgusting plan to hold up in the face of an investigation?

    Kids can go missing pretty easily when there are different fathers and no marriages on record, frequent moves, one kid leaves one school and doesn't get to the new one with his sibs - oh, he went to live with his dad, his aunt, his grandma - I have no clue how serious things are handled, medical issues and the like because I know how hard it is to get formal custody of a niece, grandchild etc. and I know how much trouble we had when our exchange student needed surgery for an injury - wonderful insurance but the hassle of dealing with the surgeon's office - oh my. I guess a pedo doesn't care that much about caring for and raising a competent adult. Horrible thought.
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  19. #79
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    P'aint has it pretty much right. After a kid has been in foster care for a year a permanency planning hearing is required to determine a permanent placement for the kids. Parents can get a 3 month extension if they have substantially complied with the case plan and just have some loose ends to wrap up.

    Parents can leave their children of any age at a DHS office or anywhere else but only infants qualify for safe haven status. If you leave an older child it is considered abandonment which falls under the definition of abuse. So there will be repercussions to the parents like being placed on the central registry of child abusers and being required to pay child support to the state.

    As far as adoptions go, the state is supposed to disclose any special needs the child may have. When I conduct an adoption hearing I ask the specialist who placed the child if the child is special needs and if those have been disclosed to the adoptive parents. There are subsidies available to people who adopt special needs kids to help with things like counseling and medical care. A child also must be in the home for 6 months before the adoption is final. Adoptions do disrupt. An adoptive parent can "give back" an adopted child with no repercussions if they have exhausted all remedies to save the adoption.
    I'm a second hand Vegan. Cows eat grass. I eat cows.


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  20. #80
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    The Texas case I talked about was a lot of years ago, I think about 20, but I imagine the lawsuits from the one set of parents, and apparently other parents joined the suit, and I'm hoping the parents won.

    I know why they have the laws about abandonment, and paying child support, but it seems to me that there should be some way for people to safely give up children.

    I don't know why the original people involved in the GA case did this, but I suspect that they never wanted kids, and didn't want to put up with the condemnation of others for giving a child up for adoption, and I suspect they thought they would be pitied, and get a lot more than the insurance money when the poor child died. I read how a child dies and what they go through in a hot car in some of the stories about this, and how anyone can voluntarily do that to a child is beyond my understanding. I could never be on a jury for these people.
    Last edited by JanM; Jul. 7, 2014 at 03:30 PM.
    You can't fix stupid-Ron White


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