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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Yes, the social changes came about because the working people banded together and formed unions....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre
    Are you serious?

    That was an already formed union that asked for a strike and went to war to force the company.
    Talk about making my point for me.

    Maybe consider that this happened the other way around, changes were coming and some took advantage of the disturbances to create and strengthen unions and use their members to fight in their name.


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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Are you serious?

    That was an already formed union that asked for a strike and went to war to force the company.
    Talk about making my point for me.

    Maybe consider that this happened the other way around, changes were coming and some took advantage of the disturbances to create and strengthen unions and use their members to fight in their name.
    LOL, AFTER the company attacked them...

    labor history is full of violence against workers.

    heck, just read European history of the turn of the last century:
    Rightwingers got a slap on the wrist, leftists, socialists and communists got hard labor (and served out the whole term)

    because...well...the establishment identified with the rightwingers...

    it takes two to fight a war.
    if it's one sided, you have raised camps and burned tents....But they usually start with 'Law Enforcement' opening fire on the workers...then of course, all bets are off.
    BTW, these things are still happening all over the world as we speak.
    Doors of sweat shops chained shut, protestors finding themselves in a hail of bullets and tear gas...because when you own the police, you own the law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.
    GNU Terry Prachett


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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    LOL, AFTER the company attacked them...

    labor history is full of violence against workers.

    heck, just read European history of the turn of the last century:
    Rightwingers got a slap on the wrist, leftists, socialists and communists got hard labor (and served out the whole term)

    because...well...the establishment identified with the rightwingers...

    it takes two to fight a war.
    if it's one sided, you have raised camps and burned tents....But they usually start with 'Law Enforcement' opening fire on the workers...then of course, all bets are off.
    BTW, these things are still happening all over the world as we speak.
    Doors of sweat shops chained shut, protestors finding themselves in a hail of bullets and tear gas...because when you own the police, you own the law.
    You realize who the "left leaning" ones were that wrote that history and made heroes out of the union, don't you.
    Yep, communists of their day, the same ones that Stalin and Mao and such other communist dictators commanded.

    That is the kind of world the unions were fighting for at the start of the 1900's.

    Are you not glad they didn't get any further than they did with what they were after, but that the changes that were already happening where there were no unions were showing all how to do things right without needing unions?

    That is the part of that story you won't get, but that coming from Europe you ought to realize is there if you look.

    I know staunch union people today that tell me all that is good about their union and also that "belonging to their union is to them like going to church, that important", their words.

    When asked about some that is not quite right, with personal examples of union members we both know, they fudge around and say, "well, everyone needs help" or some such, when others have plainly stated someone is truly from worthless to dangerous in the job, but no one can touch him because of his years as "union".
    I hear the same about bad teachers.

    It really is something wrong when union means you are saved now, no one can touch you and if you are not good, won't matter, because you are union.
    How would you like to employ anyone under those conditions?


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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLW View Post
    MY BIL and nephew are card carrying republicans who are union members (required) at the Savannah, GA port where they work. They shrug and take the $$ to the bank. They will tell you they are overpaid for what they do but hey, it's the contract that was negotiated.
    If they are longshoremen, they work in the 2nd biggest port on the east coast. Longshoremen have dangerous jobs here. I think unions are good IF they are not bigoted. My father cursed the IBEW every day for decades, since he was required to hire only union workers, and that union discriminated against blacks and women here in GA and at all the paper mills in GA and FL and AL where my father had contracts to do the electrical work. When the NAACP went to my father and asked why, out of hundreds of electricians he had working for him, there were no blacks, my father told them if the IBEW would license blacks, he'd hire them. Took a long time for the IBEW to get into the 20th century in Savannah. (And yes, my father had to be a union member even though he was the owner of the business, as he was an electrical engineer and often had to demonstrate how to do the work.)

    The reason that so many of our factories closed is because the owners chose to move their businesses to China and to India and to Bangladesh because they wanted that cheap labor and those awful working conditions so that the profits of the owners would continue to increase. It's almost impossible not to buy products made in sweatshops there, as even Rambo now makes my horse blankets in China. And they are not as good as they used to be. The Bucas blankets are even worse.

    Do we really want to buy products made by women and children in places like that factory in India where the building collapsed last year and so many people died? Do we really want to go back to the era when women and children were locked into factories in our country and died in fires? People like Caesar Chavez risked their lives to unionize and create better living conditions for people. We need unions. Yes they have their problems, but as others have said supra, unions have helped people make a living in our country. We should demand that owners of companies pay a living wage to employees. That owner of Malden Mills paid his workers after a fire closed down his business for months. Owners should be like him.


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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    If they are longshoremen, they work in the 2nd biggest port on the east coast. Longshoremen have dangerous jobs here. I think unions are good IF they are not bigoted. My father cursed the IBEW every day for decades, since he was required to hire only union workers, and that union discriminated against blacks and women here in GA and at all the paper mills in GA and FL and AL where my father had contracts to do the electrical work. When the NAACP went to my father and asked why, out of hundreds of electricians he had working for him, there were no blacks, my father told them if the IBEW would license blacks, he'd hire them. Took a long time for the IBEW to get into the 20th century in Savannah. (And yes, my father had to be a union member even though he was the owner of the business, as he was an electrical engineer and often had to demonstrate how to do the work.)

    The reason that so many of our factories closed is because the owners chose to move their businesses to China and to India and to Bangladesh because they wanted that cheap labor and those awful working conditions so that the profits of the owners would continue to increase. It's almost impossible not to buy products made in sweatshops there, as even Rambo now makes my horse blankets in China. And they are not as good as they used to be. The Bucas blankets are even worse.

    Do we really want to buy products made by women and children in places like that factory in India where the building collapsed last year and so many people died? Do we really want to go back to the era when women and children were locked into factories in our country and died in fires? People like Caesar Chavez risked their lives to unionize and create better living conditions for people. We need unions. Yes they have their problems, but as others have said supra, unions have helped people make a living in our country. We should demand that owners of companies pay a living wage to employees. That owner of Malden Mills paid his workers after a fire closed down his business for months. Owners should be like him.
    You do realize that many, many business do fine for their workers without unions?
    That those with unions are not that "special", if nothing else, they are not harming the business or industry, if worse, they are harmful and eventually get the plants closed?

    Unions are one more player in the game of our society, in many eyes, on both sides of the divide unions create, the workers and management, not a welcomed one.

    Unions are not necessary, laws and regulations work fine for today most of the workers in the USA, that is why the controversy when unions want to expand their influence, too many today understand they are selling an unnecessary bag of goods and those come with a big baggage.

    Does anyone really believe without unions where unions are dominating workers would not be treated as laws and regulations determine?
    Proof that is not so, what is the rate of unionized workers in the USA and many not in unions are doing fine, thank you.


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  6. #46
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    Unions often cater to the least common denominator. Virtually impossible to fire the slacker, the pot stirrer, the inefficient. There are so many hoops and levels to get rid of a union worker that it's often not worth the effort. That means less motivation for co workers who decide it's not worth bustimg their butt any more than necessary. It can slow down productivity and innovation.


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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    You do realize that many, many business do fine for their workers without unions?
    That those with unions are not that "special", if nothing else, they are not harming the business or industry, if worse, they are harmful and eventually get the plants closed?

    Unions are one more player in the game of our society, in many eyes, on both sides of the divide unions create, the workers and management, not a welcomed one.

    Unions are not necessary, laws and regulations work fine for today most of the workers in the USA, that is why the controversy when unions want to expand their influence, too many today understand they are selling an unnecessary bag of goods and those come with a big baggage.

    Does anyone really believe without unions where unions are dominating workers would not be treated as laws and regulations determine?
    Proof that is not so, what is the rate of unionized workers in the USA and many not in unions are doing fine, thank you.
    And many are not. Good employers, like Costco, don't motivate their workers to unionize. Employers like WalMart or McD's, OTOH do.

    Treat your employees like crap, don't be surprised if they form a union. Threat them well and they probably won't.
    Unions are the result of greedy employers.
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.


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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    And many are not. Good employers, like Costco, don't motivate their workers to unionize. Employers like WalMart or McD's, OTOH do.

    Treat your employees like crap, don't be surprised if they form a union. Threat them well and they probably won't.
    Unions are the result of greedy employers.
    How about government unions?
    How about teacher's unions?
    What "employers" were not treating them right?
    The unions are the ones that try to convince the workers they would be worse off without a union, when obviously that is not so, as most of the USA is working fine without being unionized.

    You want to find fault, you can find it in badly managed business just as much as in bad unions.

    I had a very good friend that was a very good teacher, had many teaching awards over her lifetime.
    She always was grumbling about the union this and that and how bad it was for how education could be managed, always interfering and making it difficult, not better for teachers.
    The stories she told, I would never have worked under those conditions.
    Having to follow what the union wanted, even when I would have been completely against what they were doing, strikes over nothing and not letting anyone work in peace if they didn't join and such.

    Eventually she retired and some years after that, surprise, they asked her to be a director in their regional section of the union.
    After that, she changed to how good the union was and all that it was trying to do for teachers, etc.

    Years later, she was again not involved any more and went back to grumbling about the union was doing this or that which was completely wrongheaded!

    I could never figure that one out.


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  9. #49
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    I am a nurse practitioner and I work for a company that is unionized. The union does many good things for us. A few years ago, new management came in and wanted to fire all of my group because we were all a few years away from retirement eligibility. The union reps talked with the new management and persuaded them that firing a group of 60 women who have had years of good evaluations, just before retirement eligibility would not be a good idea. If not for the union, we would have been gone and our retirement benefits from 20-30 years of work would have been diminished to almost nothing.

    The union provided us with Spanish language classes when management decided to send/loan us out to help in community clinics. These classes were really useful since most of the families I now care for do not speak English.

    The clinic that I am on loan to is nonunion. They did not follow basic OSHA standards like using the safety needles that were mandated years ago to prevent HIV/AIDs in health care workers. When workers had a needle stick from the old needles, they were told not to report it to Employee Health and not to ask for the medication to prevent HIV. If they objected, they were fired! I was very concerned, and went to talk with the medical director. I explained that all clinics have to follow OSHA safety standards and laws. If he had not listened and fixed the problem, he knew I would have gone to the union. There is no reason for health care workers to be exposed to HIV or hepatitis because a clinic wants to save 3 cents per needle by using improper needles.

    My boss explained once that he is happy to work with the union. If an employee is not doing his or her job, he can go to the union rep and arrange to have them retrained. If the retraining does not work, they are fired. Very few people are fired, as when a union rep tells someone they need to work harder and retrain, they usually listen.


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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKB View Post
    I am a nurse practitioner and I work for a company that is unionized. The union does many good things for us. A few years ago, new management came in and wanted to fire all of my group because we were all a few years away from retirement eligibility. The union reps talked with the new management and persuaded them that firing a group of 60 women who have had years of good evaluations, just before retirement eligibility would not be a good idea. If not for the union, we would have been gone and our retirement benefits from 20-30 years of work would have been diminished to almost nothing.

    The union provided us with Spanish language classes when management decided to send/loan us out to help in community clinics. These classes were really useful since most of the families I now care for do not speak English.

    The clinic that I am on loan to is nonunion. They did not follow basic OSHA standards like using the safety needles that were mandated years ago to prevent HIV/AIDs in health care workers. When workers had a needle stick from the old needles, they were told not to report it to Employee Health and not to ask for the medication to prevent HIV. If they objected, they were fired! I was very concerned, and went to talk with the medical director. I explained that all clinics have to follow OSHA safety standards and laws. If he had not listened and fixed the problem, he knew I would have gone to the union. There is no reason for health care workers to be exposed to HIV or hepatitis because a clinic wants to save 3 cents per needle by using improper needles.

    My boss explained once that he is happy to work with the union. If an employee is not doing his or her job, he can go to the union rep and arrange to have them retrained. If the retraining does not work, they are fired. Very few people are fired, as when a union rep tells someone they need to work harder and retrain, they usually listen.
    I assume you also have stories where the union was not quite up to par?

    As for anyone not doing their work up to regulations, that is stupid and illegal, unionized or not, doesn't has anything to do with the union, as some unions are keeping workers that are a danger to others, the same as your story, but this time the union is at fault.

    It is the nature of the beast, some workers and work places will not do what they are supposed to do, unionized or not, we all have heard those too, once they get caught.

    I am glad that you like your union and working under them, many do.



  11. #51
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    Bluey, our union used to be useless or worse than useless. Finally, a nursing union tried to come in because we felt our issues were not being addressed. Much to our dismay, our union found a way to keep us from having an election to throw them out. However, they then realized that they needed to start representing us.

    Our union has worked hard for us over the last 10 years. They sponsor lots of classes and relevant training. When we got an incredibly complex but excellent computerized electronic medical record, the union was heavily involved in our training. The first week that we went "live", specially trained union reps were at every nursing station making sure we got the help we needed so patient care did not suffer because of the computer system. The union recently had to get involved because some budget person cut the group that does our CPR and Advanced Life Support Training without setting up an alternative for the training. We now have the training back.

    A good union makes a big difference in worker satisfaction and competence, as well as patient care. A bad union is useless or worse than useless.


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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKB View Post
    Bluey, our union used to be useless or worse than useless. Finally, a nursing union tried to come in because we felt our issues were not being addressed. Much to our dismay, our union found a way to keep us from having an election to throw them out. However, they then realized that they needed to start representing us.

    Our union has worked hard for us over the last 10 years. They sponsor lots of classes and relevant training. When we got an incredibly complex but excellent computerized electronic medical record, the union was heavily involved in our training. The first week that we went "live", specially trained union reps were at every nursing station making sure we got the help we needed so patient care did not suffer because of the computer system. The union recently had to get involved because some budget person cut the group that does our CPR and Advanced Life Support Training without setting up an alternative for the training. We now have the training back.

    A good union makes a big difference in worker satisfaction and competence, as well as patient care. A bad union is useless or worse than useless.
    The same can be said about management, without a union involved.

    Lets be glad that we have choices, you can have a union represent you, or you can work without one.
    Ooops, not really so, too bad, is it.

    There are many unionized places and industries where you are forced to employ only union workers, or as a worker belong to their union and pay into it if you are working there, even when you don't want to, or they are clearly a bad one.

    That in my book is in a very basic way wrong, as wrong as an employer breaking laws and abusing their workers in any way, what unions PR tell you they are there to avoid.
    What unions don't tell you is what you will have to give up to belong to them, or what it will cost you if you decide not to in an unionized workplace.

    Others are free to disagree.


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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by quietann View Post
    I do wonder, sometimes, how much anti-union sentiment is just plain envy. A lot of people have NO job protection.

    My mom was a teacher and was in the union. At times she grumbled about it, because there *was* some corruption and especially protecting people who were in favor but really screwing up. Overall, though, she was happy to be in a unionized job.

    I have not been in unionized jobs, though when I worked at Harvard, the presence of a union protected the working conditions and benefits of the non-union workers (managerial/"professional") such as myself to some extent.

    I'm happy to see SEIU starting to lobby for hotel workers, fast food workers and others at the very bottom of the wage scale.
    I was in the Harvard union (Harvard Union of Technical and Clerical Workers). I was working as a staff assistant, so non-exempt, at the time they started trying to organize. First, unsuccessfully, with UAW, then, successfully, with AFSCME, which was a better cultural fit. I still have one of the "Strike!" buttons from 1988! That first contract was good, it improved a lot of benefits right away and, yes, the exempt/professional, staff benefitted as well. Later contracts were not as progressive.

    Anyone who doubts the value of labor unions should come visit and tour the mills in next door Lowell, MA to see what things were like at the height of the industrial revolution. I've been several times, it's eye opening. Girls and women working 12-14 days, 7 days a week, in a deafening environment, breathing fiber fille air for very low pay (most of which ended up going to housing in mill owned tenements).


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  14. #54
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    Wow. I love the comparison between unions and communism.

    "Are you not glad they didn't get any further than they did with what they were after, but that the changes that were already happening where there were no unions were showing all how to do things right without needing unions"

    Preemptive. Non union companies had to do something to keep up with the changing work regulations and stay relevant. Its no different than companies trying to stay ahead of the health market, so many ingredients are getting banned/consumers are avoiding purchasing, that companies are try to stay ahead of it and change ingredients so people still buy their product.

    "When asked about some that is not quite right, with personal examples of union members we both know, they fudge around and say, "well, everyone needs help" or some such, when others have plainly stated someone is truly from worthless to dangerous in the job, but no one can touch him because of his years as "union"."

    Like what? Its kind of confusing when you don't include an example/question from a conversation but you include a response. As far as worthless employees? I know as far as my union go's not pulling your weight is a fast way to get laid off, sure you can pull a ticket and go to another job but if you don't pull your weight your going to get another lay off. One time a friend of mine became dangerous when he broke a series of safety rules, he was not only laid off but banned from that employer and could only pull slips from other company heads.


    "You do realize that many, many business do fine for their workers without unions? That those with unions are not that "special", if nothing else, they are not harming the business or industry, if worse, they are harmful and eventually get the plants closed?"

    Yes. Some companies are top notch and don't give reason for their employees to unionize (Toyota, Costco and Google come to mind) but they can be rare. It really depends on your industry, someone who has gone through years of post secondary may have no need to unionize because the more money or more valuable you are to a company the better they are going to treat you. Unions help people that are potentially being taken advantage of because there considered replaceable in such a poor job market, they help the middle class.

    As far as plant closures? open you eyes and take a look at how many non union plants are being closed. It has nothing to do with unions and everything to do with greedy corporations knowing they can pay someone 1/5 of the money in a foreign country to do the same job and not worry about health and safety.

    Unions are one more player in the game of our society, in many eyes, on both sides of the divide unions create, the workers and management, not a welcomed one.

    Unions are not necessary, laws and regulations work fine for today most of the workers in the USA, that is why the controversy when unions want to expand their influence, too many today understand they are selling an unnecessary bag of goods and those come with a big baggage.

    Does anyone really believe without unions where unions are dominating workers would not be treated as laws and regulations determine?
    Proof that is not so, what is the rate of unionized workers in the USA and many not in unions are doing fine, thank you.


    My management is union... I'm not sure of an instance where union members would be working with management that isn't union?

    Unfortunately working for "Most" is not acceptable, the laws/regulations need to work for everyone not a select few and unfortunately to many are told they don't need unions when they could stand to benefit.

    I believe workers would be treated as well as the letter of the law/regulations dictates how ever some of us want more than that. According to the law I don't have to pay someone a living wage, I can get away with paying minimum wage, I can bend the hours so even though you technically deserve overtime your not going to get it. If I have an apprentice yes he worked 40 hours, but only 20 of them count because blah blah blah and now that apprentice has to work more hours before he can get his pay increase etc

    Whats your idea of workers/companies doing well? Is by how much money they makes? Mcdonalds is doing very well, making billions of dollars. Pays and treats there employees crud, no union but they are doing fine depending on which angle you look at, same with Walmart, makes tons of money, no union, pays employees next to nothing and treats them like crud but they are a success and do employee allot of people.

    I assume you also have stories where the union was not quite up to par?


    I assume you have stories where your employer was not up to par?

    The same can be said about management, without a union involved.


    Exactly, are unions the answer to everything? No, but they arnt the problem to everything either.

    Lets be glad that we have choices, you can have a union represent you, or you can work without one.
    Ooops, not really so, too bad, is it.

    There are many unionized places and industries where you are forced to employ only union workers, or as a worker belong to their union and pay into it if you are working there, even when you don't want to, or they are clearly a bad one.


    Yes, You have the option of working for a union company or you have the choice to work for a non union company, Noone is forcing you to do either. Any job can be found in and out of the union scope.

    If you don't like that a certain company wants you to join there union(even if you thinks its the worst of the worst) in order for you to work for them then clearly that is not the company for you and you should continue your job search. If you really like this company and you want to work for them, well into the union you go, clearly this company will benefit you in a way that combats the union aspect.



    People unionize for a reason, If you have to ask yourself today " who's treating you wrong? you don't need a union" than the union did there job. Unions are not always perfect, like everything there are the good the bad and the ugly, you give me an example of something bad a union did Ill give you an example of something bad a non union did.

    Unfortunately there is still a need for unions, it would be nice if we all got benefits, were paid a living wage and had people that would fight for us and make sure labour laws/regulations are enforced but there are so many people without those very things working for people that follow the letter of the law....


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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchop View Post
    Wow. I love the comparison between unions and communism.

    "Are you not glad they didn't get any further than they did with what they were after, but that the changes that were already happening where there were no unions were showing all how to do things right without needing unions"

    Preemptive. Non union companies had to do something to keep up with the changing work regulations and stay relevant. Its no different than companies trying to stay ahead of the health market, so many ingredients are getting banned/consumers are avoiding purchasing, that companies are try to stay ahead of it and change ingredients so people still buy their product.

    "When asked about some that is not quite right, with personal examples of union members we both know, they fudge around and say, "well, everyone needs help" or some such, when others have plainly stated someone is truly from worthless to dangerous in the job, but no one can touch him because of his years as "union"."

    Like what? Its kind of confusing when you don't include an example/question from a conversation but you include a response. As far as worthless employees? I know as far as my union go's not pulling your weight is a fast way to get laid off, sure you can pull a ticket and go to another job but if you don't pull your weight your going to get another lay off. One time a friend of mine became dangerous when he broke a series of safety rules, he was not only laid off but banned from that employer and could only pull slips from other company heads.


    "You do realize that many, many business do fine for their workers without unions? That those with unions are not that "special", if nothing else, they are not harming the business or industry, if worse, they are harmful and eventually get the plants closed?"

    Yes. Some companies are top notch and don't give reason for their employees to unionize (Toyota, Costco and Google come to mind) but they can be rare. It really depends on your industry, someone who has gone through years of post secondary may have no need to unionize because the more money or more valuable you are to a company the better they are going to treat you. Unions help people that are potentially being taken advantage of because there considered replaceable in such a poor job market, they help the middle class.

    As far as plant closures? open you eyes and take a look at how many non union plants are being closed. It has nothing to do with unions and everything to do with greedy corporations knowing they can pay someone 1/5 of the money in a foreign country to do the same job and not worry about health and safety.

    Unions are one more player in the game of our society, in many eyes, on both sides of the divide unions create, the workers and management, not a welcomed one.

    Unions are not necessary, laws and regulations work fine for today most of the workers in the USA, that is why the controversy when unions want to expand their influence, too many today understand they are selling an unnecessary bag of goods and those come with a big baggage.

    Does anyone really believe without unions where unions are dominating workers would not be treated as laws and regulations determine?
    Proof that is not so, what is the rate of unionized workers in the USA and many not in unions are doing fine, thank you.


    My management is union... I'm not sure of an instance where union members would be working with management that isn't union?

    Unfortunately working for "Most" is not acceptable, the laws/regulations need to work for everyone not a select few and unfortunately to many are told they don't need unions when they could stand to benefit.

    I believe workers would be treated as well as the letter of the law/regulations dictates how ever some of us want more than that. According to the law I don't have to pay someone a living wage, I can get away with paying minimum wage, I can bend the hours so even though you technically deserve overtime your not going to get it. If I have an apprentice yes he worked 40 hours, but only 20 of them count because blah blah blah and now that apprentice has to work more hours before he can get his pay increase etc

    Whats your idea of workers/companies doing well? Is by how much money they makes? Mcdonalds is doing very well, making billions of dollars. Pays and treats there employees crud, no union but they are doing fine depending on which angle you look at, same with Walmart, makes tons of money, no union, pays employees next to nothing and treats them like crud but they are a success and do employee allot of people.

    I assume you also have stories where the union was not quite up to par?


    I assume you have stories where your employer was not up to par?

    The same can be said about management, without a union involved.


    Exactly, are unions the answer to everything? No, but they arnt the problem to everything either.

    Lets be glad that we have choices, you can have a union represent you, or you can work without one.
    Ooops, not really so, too bad, is it.

    There are many unionized places and industries where you are forced to employ only union workers, or as a worker belong to their union and pay into it if you are working there, even when you don't want to, or they are clearly a bad one.


    Yes, You have the option of working for a union company or you have the choice to work for a non union company, Noone is forcing you to do either. Any job can be found in and out of the union scope.

    If you don't like that a certain company wants you to join there union(even if you thinks its the worst of the worst) in order for you to work for them then clearly that is not the company for you and you should continue your job search. If you really like this company and you want to work for them, well into the union you go, clearly this company will benefit you in a way that combats the union aspect.



    People unionize for a reason, If you have to ask yourself today " who's treating you wrong? you don't need a union" than the union did there job. Unions are not always perfect, like everything there are the good the bad and the ugly, you give me an example of something bad a union did Ill give you an example of something bad a non union did.

    Unfortunately there is still a need for unions, it would be nice if we all got benefits, were paid a living wage and had people that would fight for us and make sure labour laws/regulations are enforced but there are so many people without those very things working for people that follow the letter of the law....
    I bolded that last paragraph, everything else I have already addressed, no need to repeat the same again.

    Unfortunately there is a need for regulation and inspection, unions or not, because people that do wrong will do so with and without unions.

    I will repeat, unions only add one more middleman to the worker/employer equation.
    That is for some way too costly for the worker, so much of what unions are supposed to give you already provided thru laws and inspection.

    The main problem with unions is, well, who they are and the world view they want to bring to the table by making it mandatory to belong to them.
    Don't bother trying to deny that, anyone that belongs to a union can explain that to you, you better vote as they tell you, strike when they tell you, if it is against what you believe or cost your job, now or eventually by the business closing.

    Unions are the unwelcome, unwanted, unnecessary bully in the playing field.
    Glad that you like and defend them, that is the beauty of the freedoms we have.
    Too bad you don't realize how that freedom is cut back by unions.
    Call it what you want, but in the end, it is history now that unionizing workers is a big part of what drove to communism as it's end result when they became a big player in some countries at the start of the 1900s.

    Today, because of the unions trying to take workers freedoms away, we now have "right to work" laws, to try to curb union's heavy handed bullying of workers.
    That bullying of workers by who unions are, to some, is as objectionable as employers not doing right by their workers.

    Some workers can't see how unions are taking so many rights away from them, while telling them over and over how much they are doing for them, as long as they give their rights over to them to do as they wish and the good little worker follows their lead.
    For some, that is a good trade-off.
    Many don't realize what they are giving up.

    I think these discussion are good, so more will become informed and have a better base to make their decisions when it comes to all that is involved in belonging to unions when those come bearing their oh so tempting gifts, Big Brother will come make it all right, as long as you do it's bidding.
    If not, watch out.
    Last edited by Bluey; Mar. 31, 2014 at 07:43 AM.


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  16. #56
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    Interesting comments about RTW states
    http://mediamatters.org/research/201...s/191810#myth2
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  17. #57
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    Seriously? Teachers and government workers are treated so "right" that we've no need to unionize?? Really? I am paid at the will of a legislative body. I have not received a pay raise in 6 YEARS. My union makes sure that all teachers are paid/benefited equally. All this talk of math/science/technology teachers being more "special" than other subjects? Yeah...the legislature in my state wanted to pay them significantly more than say, English or history teachers. Uh, no. Still gotta read to do all that fancy-dancy engineering crap...and write about it, too.

    Teachers have several "bosses" if you will that we work for: parents, students, the local and state governments (elected officials, school boards). All of them have demands. I'd prefer to have a single, strong voice at the table when decisions about my job are made. I'd say any government employee would fee the same way--taxpayers and elected officials are often not the best bosses in the world.

    There is good and bad in any workplace, and unions absolutely still are necessary and beneficial to ALL workers.
    Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!


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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchop View Post
    Today unions are demonized as expensive, slow labour performed by lazy workers that can't get fired and will strike if they don't get there way. I can tell you right now, You can get fired, you can get fired from the site your on and if you really mess up you can get banned from the overhead company which means you cant work on their other job sites either which can really effect your pocket book. We also have a clause in our agreement that forbids us from striking, every 3 years we sit down with the other trade unions and we write a new agreement that stays current with the changing times and it stays law until the next time we rewrite.
    Unions were started for a very good reason, but like everything else, as they evolved they became just like other entities. There are good and there are bad. There are union leaders that are not really in it for the workers and there are some that are downright corrupt. Corruption, lazy workers and bad unions are pretty common in my area. Teacher friends complain about the union not really listening to what the teachers want. Labor unions working on a strict tenure structure for promotions - you are the dirtbag that has been with the union for 10 years, you get the promotion instead of the intelligent young kid that has been with the union for only 5 years. Electric companies that have to hire out of unions and get no say if the job they get the contract for will be done by good electricians or dirtbags. Slow workers that delay projects and complain because their parking spot is not near enough to the building for their tastes.

    No, I am not going to buy a laptop that costs twice as much and is the same quality just to "buy American". What am I paying for with that extra $1,000? It isn't a better built product, it is just an American built product. That is capitalism for you. I can buy what I want, where I want. A few dollars more for American, fine. Twice the price? No.

    Also, the store that was built in PA that took twice as long to build? Yes, it was due to union issues. It was due to having to wait for the plumbers to decide they had time to work on the building. It was because breaks were taken every 2 hours because that was the union contract. While state laws dictate what breaks you are required to get in a company, it is often that I would work through a break (15 minute breaks, not lunch breaks) to get a job done. The store in DE was completed on time because workers did not insist on taking those breaks. The auto workers' unions did the same thing, as does the Port. To me, it is as bad as working with smokers.

    I do not think anyone without special skills should get $80K/year. The problem with that is when the plants closed, they expected jobs for $80K/year, but did not have any skills to show for it. No education beyond high school, not special skills learned; only an expectation of a high salary. Unions shoot themselves in the foot with that.

    I will continue to not think much of unions. They are just another form of corporate America.


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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajierene View Post
    No, I am not going to buy a laptop that costs twice as much and is the same quality just to "buy American". What am I paying for with that extra $1,000? It isn't a better built product, it is just an American built product. That is capitalism for you. I can buy what I want, where I want. A few dollars more for American, fine. Twice the price? No.
    The price of non American made goods really has nothing to do with unions. The prices are low because they are made in sweat shops in countries with no worker or environmental protections. That's why they are so cheap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    The price of non American made goods really has nothing to do with unions. The prices are low because they are made in sweat shops in countries with no worker or environmental protections. That's why they are so cheap.
    To clarify, I stated in my earlier post that the laptop that is $1,000 more is union made. That is it's entire selling point - union made. Part of Lambchop's reply is that I should buy American, so I generalized from built in the US to not necessarily built in the US.

    To reiterate - the most expensive laptop the company has to offer is UNION BUILT and the quality is the same as the other ones.



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