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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot's View Post
    I can bet that if anyone has been caught before they committed the act, if they had support from people that care and from health professionals, if they had overcome their problem and lived a different life, they would be thankful they came through that episode - suicide is just so final, and probably cannot be overcome alone.

    I'm shocked at the attitude: "It is their life, they can do what they want with it",
    and appalled that our society has become so desensitised..
    The two people I know (one a past lover, one a riding friend) who committed suicide did so 1) the night before entering rehab, and 2) shortly after telling people that additional professional help was being sought.

    Having friends, family, professional support was not enough to stop them. AFAIK, neither had made previous attempts. Both were gunshots to the head.

    Did I feel guilt about both, especially as a long-time sufferer of depression, wondering if I could have said/done something differently that might have "saved" them? You bet I did.

    I think some people just want to die and it might be delayed, but if it is their intent, they will make it happen. Other people, like my MIL who swallowed too many pills as an attention-grab, didn't really want to die and might have been talked out of it had she reached out to someone.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot's View Post
    I'm shocked at the attitude: "It is their life, they can do what they want with it",
    and appalled that our society has become so desensitised..
    But isn't that not desensitization, but in fact EXTRA sensitivity to the fact that people should be allowed to have some control over their OWN lives?

    To those saying it's selfish...I completely understand where you're coming from, but isn't it just as selfish to want someone in such extreme pain to stick around, just so that YOU aren't unhappy? Particularly if they have tried meds/therapy/etc and are still in that same low spot? What makes YOU so special that THEY need to accommodate your own feelings before their own?


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  3. #43
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    I think that someone really has to fear life in order to face the unknown afterlife by committing suicide. I was approached by a co-worker whom I was NOT friends with, although we'd gone to grad school together, and told by him that he was going to commit suicide. And kill 3 others guys in our office. In the courthouse. In Atlanta. Long story short, I did all I could to convince him that life was worth living. Six months later, he shot himself in front of his 9 yr old child on the boy's birthday. Well duh. Talk about screwing up your own kid just because your father beat your mother and siblings and gave you everything.

    Suicide is selfish. I know another guy (brother in law of my then best friend) whose father committed suicide the night of the boy's senior prom, and left a note saying it was all his son's fault. Screw up your kid, much?

    BTW, sex will not prevent suicide.

    ETA I do think that people with terminal illnesses have the right to commit suicide to end the pain.
    Last edited by cloudyandcallie; Mar. 19, 2014 at 06:56 PM.


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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nezzy View Post
    i am sorry, OP but there is no NORMAL person who just chooses to end their life. Either they have a mental illness, a chronic illness( or dying) , or severe depression. whether they show that to the world or not. As humans we have a need for self-preservation. It's not selfish, it's a tragedy.
    I agree, and depression IS a form of mental illness. Many mental illnesses are not treated easily, and medications can have unpleasant side-effects. I think that if these people could feel NORMAL, they probably wouldn't contemplate suicide, but that isn't as simple as just saying "get therapy and stay on your meds".

    This thread is a great example that people don't consider mental illness to be the same as physical illness. In my cousin's case, we believe "the people" he heard in his head told him to commit suicide, or somehow convinced him that he should, or - honestly - who knows. It's unfair to call him selfish - he was sick. He was having breaks from reality, even though he was in therapy and he was taking medication. Perhaps it was the wrong treatment, but I am convinced that if he had felt normal, he would not have killed himself.


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  5. #45
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    Not sure, but I believe that one motivation for suicide is extreme anger at the world and waiting to hurt other people.

    One supposes that anyone who chooses death must have already gone past caring about an afterlife because this life is so horrible that any escape will do.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot's View Post
    I can bet that if anyone has been caught before they committed the act, if they had support from people that care and from health professionals, if they had overcome their problem and lived a different life, they would be thankful they came through that episode - suicide is just so final, and probably cannot be overcome alone.
    That's an awful lot of "if"s.

    I'm shocked at the attitude: "It is their life, they can do what they want with it", and appalled that our society has become so desensitised..
    What's wrong with letting people live their lives? No one is suggesting that depressed people be handed a bottle of sleeping pills and told to take a handful with a shot of vodka. What we're saying is if a person has made a sound, reasoned decision to end their life, they should be allowed to do so and not be condemned or judged.
    Against My Better Judgement: A blog about my new FLF OTTB
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nezzy View Post
    exactly. IF he was not normal. IF he was ill. I get ending your life due to fear of suffering to come, that is not what the OP was discussing.
    You don't know any better than I do if the person ended their life due to fear of suffering to come. You jumped to a mental disorder, I jumped to a physical one.

    OP said it was an online acquaintance with no outward signs. Just because OP doesn't know what caused this person to take their life doesn't mean there wasn't something.

    I think you and I are arguing the same point, just from different perspectives.



  8. #48
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    A word of caution for everyone who seems intent to judge suicide. Anti-depressants can cause suicide and suicidal thoughts and tendancies in people who were not suicidal before taking the medication. It happened to me, the warning is very real.


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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invested1 View Post
    You don't know any better than I do if the person ended their life due to fear of suffering to come. You jumped to a mental disorder, I jumped to a physical one.

    OP said it was an online acquaintance with no outward signs. Just because OP doesn't know what caused this person to take their life doesn't mean there wasn't something.

    I think you and I are arguing the same point, just from different perspectives.
    no, what i said in the first post was that no NORMAL person kills themself. If they are sick, that is not normal. Whether sick physically or mentally.



  10. #50
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    Having been suicidal at one point in my life I have an understanding of at least one angle that can push people to the end. In many cases depression is temporary and treatable. Not talking about long term mental illness or terminal illness, but situational depression that is treatable and temporary.

    I see situational depression as an illness that is potentially fatal without treatment. No different than any other illness that could be fatal if not treated. Pneumonia kills as it fills your lungs with fluid, depression kills because it fills your head with hopelessness. People who chose to end their lives when effected by depression are not making an informed choice because they can't see anything through the hopelessness.

    If someone had just told me, okay, you have thought about it for a long time, you can't come up with a good reason not to, just go ahead and kill yourself. I would never have found a way through the pain. I never would have come out on the other side and found the joy that is in life. That is what depression does to you, it can last for a long time and the hopelessness makes it impossible for you to see that are reasons not to take your own life.


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  11. #51
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    It's condemned in my religion.

    But it's not my place to judge

    My personal thoughts are that it's the easy way out. There are times when I wished the whole world would go away and I could get out. When I see no future, have no desire to do anything, nothing to look forward to. When I don't care what anyone else thinks or how my actions would affect them. Those are the types of thoughts that I think often lead to suicide. Trying to serve God is the reason I keep going during dark times, and the other reasons return slowly. I begin to appreciate spring flowers, the purpose of my job, the love of my family, and the world looks brighter again. I wish I could help everyone feel the love of God, especially when everything feels like everything's crumbling around you.


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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by amastrike View Post
    What we're saying is if a person has made a sound, reasoned decision to end their life, they should be allowed to do so and not be condemned or judged.
    Yes, but, by definition, a person with a mental illness may not be able to make a sound, reasoned decision.


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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    Six months later, he shot himself in front of his 9 yr old child on the boy's birthday. Well duh. Talk about screwing up your own kid just because your father beat your mother and siblings and gave you everything.

    Suicide is selfish. I know another guy (brother in law of my then best friend) whose father committed suicide the night of the boy's senior prom, and left a note saying it was all his son's fault. Screw up your kid, much?
    Now, see, I feel the act of suicide was not selfish, the act of committing violence on the other people was. Like another poster, if you feel the need, go somewhere alone and do this, not in front of others. That's being hurtful and malicious-or simply insensitive anymore...

    So to me, these examples are committing violence to others, but the suicide was still that person's personal choice....just could have done it in a more private way.
    "As a rule we disbelieve all the facts and theories for which we have no use."- William James
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nezzy View Post
    no, what i said in the first post was that no NORMAL person kills themself. If they are sick, that is not normal. Whether sick physically or mentally.

    But what IS "mentally sick"? That comes back to our society's definition of 'normal', which I abhor.
    "As a rule we disbelieve all the facts and theories for which we have no use."- William James
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Proud member of the Wheat Loss Clique.


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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melelio View Post
    But what IS "mentally sick"? That comes back to our society's definition of 'normal', which I abhor.
    Mental illnesses have specific definitions and diagnoses, not just a general sense of "not normal".

    From Wikipedia: A mental disorder, also called a mental illness or psychiatric disorder, is a mental or behavioral pattern or anomaly that causes either suffering or an impaired ability to function in ordinary life (disability), and which is not developmentally or socially normative.

    Mental illnesses aren't just people who are feeling grumpy or sad from time to time, or who have personalities that you don't like.


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  16. #56
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    I used to think suicide was selfish, I no longer do. My good friend in college committed suicide, a close relative tried and an aquaintence I knew fairly well committed suicide. None of these people were in a place to make the decisions they did. They were in so much emotional pain they could no longer bear it and my relative was pushed over the edge from an increase in a medicine with serious side effects.
    My college friend blew out his brains in his bedroom and his father found him. I was initially pissed at him for leaving me like that. But came to understand that you don't do something like that easily or without a lot of turmoil and pain.
    My relative was on medication and he wasn't feeling better. He was told to double the meds over the phone which caused him to go completely off of the deep end. He took the whole bottle of pills. Luckily the pills made him vomit. He easily could have blown his brains out or crashed his car if he had had the opportunity. He was hallucinating so badly that he could not have been responsible for his actions.
    These were not sound, reasonable decisions. They were ill.
    Accuracy is the twin brother of honesty; inaccuracy, of dishonesty.
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  17. #57
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    My opinion is that there is no difference in your body becoming ill enough to kill you or your mind becoming ill enough to kill you. Suicide runs in one side of my family, and at least one person in each generation pulls it off successfully, the strangest of which was my cousin who held a .44 magnum under his chin and pulled the trigger. He survived, only to wander away from the care facility in -20 degrees and freeze to death. At least his death was ruled "accidental"....yeah, right.


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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nezzy View Post
    no, what i said in the first post was that no NORMAL person kills themself. If they are sick, that is not normal. Whether sick physically or mentally.
    Nuh uh. You said "depression or severe mental disorder." When I brought up physical ailment, you said "that's not what the OP is discussing."

    And I'm curious what your definition of "normal" is.



  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invested1 View Post
    And I'm curious what your definition of "normal" is.
    Not suffering from a mental illness or disorder.


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  20. #60
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    I have a different view, and not sure why...but I think if someone wants to end their own life, it;s their decsiion and should be able to do it if they want to (unless they are young, a teenager or such who really may not understand that it is final or be going through a phase)

    It may be a form of mental illness or depression, but they are still an autonomous person and made that decision in whatever state they were in.

    A number of people, imo are completely rational, and just are tired and have enough and they decide it's time, they're done. .I guess I am unconventional in not many people seem to feel the way I do about it.


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