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  1. #21
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    Being a biologist you should do a little more research. It don't take a rocket scientist to see there's a problem. One only has to see what happened to the elk and deer populations in the Yellowstone and the Bitteroot Valley. Fed FWP finally admitted to a problem with wolf management. These are only the publicized areas. The wolf population has more than flourished throughout the west without control. So, now, we have uninformed self proclaimed wolf experts from out of state telling us how to manage our wildlife. Oh, and by the way, to quote a famous book called "Custer Died For Your Sins",doesn't just abour everybody have some Cherokee grandmother in their lineage. Even so, Idaho isn't Montana and, believe you me, they have quite a problem with wolves too!


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  2. #22
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    The chicken or the egg. Are the deer in the town because wolves pushed them there or are they there because a town was built in the wilderness?

    My boyfriend lives near Pocatello, so West Yellowstone/ Grand Teton is an easy drive up for us. We don't go on photography tours and such. We go with specific ideas in mind, like looking for wolves around Lamar Valley and things of that nature. My boyfriend has seen wolves once in Yellowstone, and I have not yet viewed any, anywhere except in a zoo. I have seen about a million elk, buffalo, ground squirrels, a few coyote, fox, beaver, pronghorn, some bear tracks, but no bear.
    Rhode Islands are red;
    North Hollands are blue.
    Sorry my thoroughbreds
    Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dklime View Post
    Being a biologist you should do a little more research. It don't take a rocket scientist to see there's a problem. One only has to see what happened to the elk and deer populations in the Yellowstone and the Bitteroot Valley. Fed FWP finally admitted to a problem with wolf management. These are only the publicized areas. The wolf population has more than flourished throughout the west without control. So, now, we have uninformed self proclaimed wolf experts from out of state telling us how to manage our wildlife. Oh, and by the way, to quote a famous book called "Custer Died For Your Sins",doesn't just abour everybody have some Cherokee grandmother in their lineage. Even so, Idaho isn't Montana and, believe you me, they have quite a problem with wolves too!
    I proclaimed myself a wolf expert? Wow, I need to update my resume. I have been researching, while doing my actual work as well, and I have yet to find anything to back you up. Please post links, to somewhere other than a pro hunting site or blog and I will check them out. I know you can't turn down the chance to educate me. =)
    Rhode Islands are red;
    North Hollands are blue.
    Sorry my thoroughbreds
    Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :


    5 members found this post helpful.

  4. #24
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    Why bother. I'm sure whatever I posted it wouldn't fit your agenda or those with the same. There's a lot of studies covering this. There's others out there that talk quite objectively about this problem. I can name countless numbers of "tourists" who haven't seen many wolves. I can also name many who have never seen wolverines,bobcats, or grizzlies for that matter either. But, let me reassure you, they are there. One only has to look at the documented decline of elk, deer and the like to know. That's part of the problem. Tourists come out to the west for a day or two and say, "Well, I don't see any wolves..." Then they go home and don't see a problem. All one has to do to be made a believer is to spend some time with your pets and or livestock out unprotected and then we'll see.


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  5. #25
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    There are always the claims that wolves (or whatever predator hunters hate) are decimating another species. More deer are killed by cars than by wolves and more elk, moose, etc are driven to death by starvation from man encroaching than anything else. Ranchers have ruined grasslands from over grazing their cattle. And just because I don't live in Wyoming doesn't mean I can't see the problems created by that over grazing.

    On a brighter note the Oregonian will occasionally print an update on a lone wolf that is believed to be traveling throughout Oregon and N California looking for a mate. I hope he finds a wife.

    There is a similar problem with cheetahs in Africa. Farmers and ranchers killing the cheetahs towards annihilation. Rescue groups are working with the farmers for alternative ways to protect their goats. Big dogs and holding pens seem to be providing relief for both cheetahs and farmers. Killing isn't the answer to the question.
    "All top hat and no canter". *Graureiter*


    4 members found this post helpful.

  6. #26
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    Doubt there was ever a problem with any wildlife before man became involved. There are prey and predator animals to keep both populations in check naturally. It is only when man invades the animals' spaces that problems ensue.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  7. #27
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    Yes, you are right. Howvever, to quote a gentleman from an African nation once said to some westerners who came to his country. "We are so grateful that you white people came here to help us manage our wildlife...." Oh, I better qualify this by saying he meant that with extreme sarcasm.


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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dklime View Post
    Oh, and by the way, to quote a famous book called "Custer Died For Your Sins",doesn't just abour everybody have some Cherokee grandmother in their lineage. Even so, Idaho isn't Montana and, believe you me, they have quite a problem with wolves too!
    Love Vine Deloria, Jr. Red Earth White Lies had so much tongue in cheek humor and still laugh over him saying that telling someone you are Cherokee is really just another way of saying you were born in the US! We lost a great voice when he walked on



  9. #29
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    Please read "Never Cry Wolf" by Farley Mowat. It is an exceptional book. There's also a great book by(David?) Mech on the wolves of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, but I forget the name. That book is also great. I always wanted a wolf. Not a wolf dog, as they can have the worst traits of both breeds. I understand the issue of preying on livestock. But wolves are the ultimate canine, the smartest and the best. Even better than aussies, which I think are the smartest dogs.



  10. #30
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    I really don't understand wanting a wolf. I think they're beautiful, intelligent, etc, etc, etc, but wanting to own one? That's like wanting to own a zebra. Easy to get blinded by the beauty/wildness, etc, but not taking into account the essential nature of what the animal IS. A wolf is not a german shepherd any more than a zebra is a quarterhorse or a mountain lion is a tabby.

    *scratches head*

    As for the debate, I'd be curious to see actual documentation on the decimation of elk herds - along with what the populations actually were (were they overpopulated to begin with? just hanging on?). Is the reduction in population an actual ecological problem, or just a problem for people who want to hunt/see elk? I'm asking these things honestly, as a yankee who lives far away.
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

    My CANTER blog.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dklime View Post
    Why bother. I'm sure whatever I posted it wouldn't fit your agenda or those with the same. There's a lot of studies covering this. There's others out there that talk quite objectively about this problem. I can name countless numbers of "tourists" who haven't seen many wolves. I can also name many who have never seen wolverines,bobcats, or grizzlies for that matter either. But, let me reassure you, they are there. One only has to look at the documented decline of elk, deer and the like to know. That's part of the problem. Tourists come out to the west for a day or two and say, "Well, I don't see any wolves..." Then they go home and don't see a problem. All one has to do to be made a believer is to spend some time with your pets and or livestock out unprotected and then we'll see.
    No one said they weren't there, but if they are climbing in your window to steal your children, as you make it sound, one would think you might see one when hiking in the back country, looking in known territory, for certain species. I've had to deal with catching, tagging, and releasing endangered species for projects, so I'm not exactly as naïve as you would like to attempt to make it seem. I dare say that I likely have a fair bit more knowledge than most tourists, but I'm not ashamed to wear the tag. It's not a dirty word.
    Oh, and I live in the country, I don't leave pets or livestock unprotected as I know what can happen to them if you do so, but I also don't fault predators for acting like predators.

    I'm looking for these studies you mention and haven't found them yet. I have also asked a few of my friends at Fish and Game if they could lead me to anything they know about this, but I haven't heard back yet.

    I'm actually not against proper management. It's just that when you come out all fire and brimstone, with your wanting to scorch the earth to rid it of the damn vermin wolves, spouting things as truth, that are questionable, that I find reason to...question your claims.
    Rhode Islands are red;
    North Hollands are blue.
    Sorry my thoroughbreds
    Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :


    8 members found this post helpful.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gestalt View Post
    There are always the claims that wolves (or whatever predator hunters hate) are decimating another species. More deer are killed by cars than by wolves and more elk, moose, etc are driven to death by starvation from man encroaching than anything else. Ranchers have ruined grasslands from over grazing their cattle. And just because I don't live in Wyoming doesn't mean I can't see the problems created by that over grazing.

    On a brighter note the Oregonian will occasionally print an update on a lone wolf that is believed to be traveling throughout Oregon and N California looking for a mate. I hope he finds a wife.

    There is a similar problem with cheetahs in Africa. Farmers and ranchers killing the cheetahs towards annihilation. Rescue groups are working with the farmers for alternative ways to protect their goats. Big dogs and holding pens seem to be providing relief for both cheetahs and farmers. Killing isn't the answer to the question.
    Do you really have to repeat that myth of "ranchers ruining the land by overgrazing their cattle"?

    Those lands are in a severe to record breaking drought and cattle have not even been grazing in many of those permits there for some years now.

    The drought and wildlife still there is who is grazing now, overgrazing where that is happening, as some feral horse herds are doing, while those evil ranchers keep paying for permits they don't get to use, as the BLM is not letting anyone in there because of the drought, for years now.

    There really is way more to these questions than what some with agendas want us to know.
    Be especially careful when you read something that at the end asks for donations to save whatever cause of the moment.


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboymom View Post

    I think wolves have a place in the wilderness but they went and took ALL the places. And did it so quickly, while wiping out outfitting, hunting, and ranching industries, that nobody had a chance to come around to the idea and polarizing the issue even further. The biologists were even shocked at how quickly they spread and reproduced. I think it should have been more gradual for a lot of reasons.
    I agree; the success took a lot of folks by surprise. I agree with the poster who was ticked about the gov't lying to the people in or near release areas. I have seen that where I live and it is a major reason why there is no much opposition to all these experiments. Notice how the releases are almost always on federal land? Gov't and NGO's will come into a locality and explain what they're doing, that it won't disrupt surrounding communities, and they gain support by promising (and funding) livestock compensation programs, as well as assuring people that the economic benefits far outweigh the damage the reintroduced species inflict.

    Except things don't go that way, do they. Wildlife move. They abandon natural prey because it's easier to eat your cattle and dogs. The livestock compensation programs run out of money; so ranchers, already operating on thin margins, have to absorb yet more losses. They can't deal with a problem animal because the animal is protected. If they try to defend themselves, the feds and NGO's sue the rancher or farmer. (I'm thinking of a case here in the Dismal Swamp with the red wolf)

    I don't mind the reintroductions so much. I mind the lying. By conducting the releases on federal land, the feds and NGO's essentially bypass the democratic process at the state and local level. By making promises of prosperity, they prey on the poorest and least able to defend or advocate for themselves.

    I think they know exactly what they're doing. I think they know that all they have to do is get people to accept the idea of apex predators (and large prey that have been extirpated) so the locals don't cause any trouble. Then, once the animals are released and cause problems - too bad, toots.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


    3 members found this post helpful.

  14. #34
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    Sep. 2, 2008
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    There have been no recorded wolf populations in Colorado since 1940. However I know several people who will swear on their life that they've seen wolves here. A suspected wolf was recently killed out on the interstate. The official word was that it was an overgrown coyote but anyone who saw it said it was definitely a wolf. A guy I work with saw a wolf on his farm. My SO swears he saw one one night working in the oilfield.

    Here's an article with a photo
    http://www.9news.com/news/local/arti...roams-Colorado

    Apex predators near large population area seem like a really dangerous thing.
    **Friend of bar.ka**

    Fils Du Reverdy (Revy)- 1993 Selle Francais Gelding
    My equine soulmate


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  15. #35
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    Dec. 31, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Those that are against managing wolves I assume have mice nesting in their pantries and cockroaches running around their kitchens?

    Well, the same with wild life and how humans care for the animals under their charge and control their predators.

    We live in a wildlife preserve, where wildlife can raise their young and live very much undisturbed.
    When they move off into other lands, they are then hunted and/or controlled as needed, as there are more interests using those other lands, why we are a wildlife preserve in the first place.

    There is room for everyone, just have to be sensible about it.

    I saw a real, big wolf here, in a canyon, as I was opening a gate, that was not worried about my driving up and walking around, just watched me.
    I went thru the gate, closed it and went on and coming back, it was still around there, hunting whatever it was hunting, rabbits or mice or who knows.

    I notified the game warden, that was busy somewhere else and could not come, but he took the report, one of several on big grey, not smaller mexican red wolves here.

    No way to tell if it was a domestically raised one or from the North, as some do come from there at times following the Rockies and our canyons into the plains.

    One other time I saw one big, mostly black one, but that one was trotting over a caprock and back down in the canyons and I didn't really get to watch it but for a minute.

    When they first came here in 1910, there were wolf packs here and they did threaten and some attacked humans and definitely were killing livestock, so they were hunted down.
    Most everyone had a pack of greyhounds trained just for that and used them to hunt wolves down, mostly in the winters.
    After wolves were eradicated, coyotes took over, that were rare before that.
    Wolves tend to be really deadly and don't hold back, can decimate a flock of sheep, when they only need one to eat, so have a more serious effect on what they kill.
    Coyotes at least are a different sort of predator, humans and their animals have a bit better chance to make it with them around than with wolves.

    There is no action without reaction.
    You DO realize that in the US there have been no deaths confirmed due to wolves in the US. There were 2 possible ones, but they can't rule out bear in those 2 attacks.
    http://www.livingwithwolves.org/AW_question1.html

    You are far more likely to be killed by a domestic dog than a wolf.

    They need to outlaw leg traps...PERIOD.


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    They need to outlaw leg traps...PERIOD.
    Totally agree with this!

    I will add that being out in and really spending time in the wilderness you get a much better feel for what's there than many of the studies.


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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    You DO realize that in the US there have been no deaths confirmed due to wolves in the US. There were 2 possible ones, but they can't rule out bear in those 2 attacks.
    http://www.livingwithwolves.org/AW_question1.html

    You are far more likely to be killed by a domestic dog than a wolf.

    They need to outlaw leg traps...PERIOD.
    What is your point, to say that wolves are not dangerous because they don't kill people wholesale?

    You realize there have not been many wolves in contact with humans for decades in the USA, don't you and that before people living in the wilderness carried guns all the time?

    There are some deaths and wolves attacking humans in Canada, recently where they have come in steady contact and people don't carry guns.

    When they first came here in 1910, there were wolves here and yes, it is not recorded on the internet maybe, but there were wolves attacking humans.
    There is a reason they carried guns around here.


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  18. #38
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    The wolves don't get in a word do they? People move in and the wolves are a "problem". Geez! They are a predator at the top of the chain and that puts a target on their backs since the human wants to be the only one at the top. Yeah, I live in Alabama. But I will speak out on this since I do know that when the government is involved, it is because the lobbyists and PAC groups rule -- such as the NRA and the ranchers. Where the hell is the wolf supposed to go? They've been run totally out of many states that were natural habitats and are being killed from helicopters and other ways because it increases the testosterone for some "hunter" to kill one or more. So if they cross some imaginary "line" that I guess they should know where it is, they are fair game? Really? It's all about money, ego and selfishness. They get so decimated they are on an endangered list and they start getting a population started and -- OH NO !!! they might limit our bag limit on elk or moose! So let's wipe them out so we can increase that population and get to hunt more! Forget ecology or what's fair. They are family units that mate for life and we kill them like we do and wipe out entire families and eliminate the young one's ability to feed themselves through the winter without help from the older ones. It's a shame for them. They are gorgeous creatures who should be allowed to live in their natural territories. If YOU move in, then deal with it and learn to live WITH them. People are definitely the problem.
    PennyG


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  19. #39
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    TKR, the wolves were eradicated because of the problems they caused ranchers in the early 1900s. They have been reintroduced in areas where people are several generations removed from those who originally moved into wolf territory



  20. #40
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    I sure hope that wolves eat feral hogs.
    That would be so nice.

    I don't hold much hope, feral hogs are I expect even too tough for wolves to mess with.



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