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  1. #1
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    Default Anyone want to talk about wolves?

    I got to spend 6 hours in Yellowstone 13 years ago with my sister watching the wolves. It was one of the most peaceful days of my life just watching them.

    I feel awful that people out West are intent on wiping them out again

    Why do we have to kill everything?
    Missouri Fox Trotters-To ride one is to own one

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  2. #2
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    I'm with you on this one, OP. Normally, I take the farmers/ranchers side on most things, because I think they have it hard enough, but not when it comes to wolves. I think returning wolves to the west is one of the best things we can do for the ecosystem.

    And important for agriculture or not, we don't own the entire planet. We should learn to share.
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
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  3. #3
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    I lived in Idaho for almost thirty years, and lived there during the reintroduction of wolves to Idaho and Yellowstone. Most people love or hate wolves. I'm a middle of the roadist, a wildlife artist with friends who are ranchers.

    Wolves have made a great recovery. I actually do not have a problem with the controlled hunting of wolves, tags, limits, etc. What I do have a problem with is states like Wyoming (and I love Wyoming) taking wolves from the endangered list and putting them on the predator list which means there is no limit on how many can be killed, or how they can be killed. I am hugely against trapping.

    I hate how wolves have become a statement, the haters trying to torment the lovers with dead wolf photos and videos etc., the lovers saying no wolf should die ever. Parking on the square in Jackson Hole with a dead wolf strapped to the top of your car... uncalled for.

    I do believe wolves have to be managed. I am sad at how some people and states are "managing" them. But the writing was basically on the wall when they were reintroduced. A lot of us figured it would end up here.
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  4. #4
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    I agree, I do not have livestock at stake out west. But I'm tired of man having to wipe out anything that is the smallest amount of competition.

    I really don't agree with the predator killing contests that they have.
    Missouri Fox Trotters-To ride one is to own one

    Standardbreds, so much more then a harness racing horse.


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  5. #5
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    Wolves are a conservation success story. Just like the Buffalo, Bald Eagle, and countless less charismatic species.

    The ESA was never intended to be a method of permanently protecting species regardless of its population. The goal of the ESA was to protect endangered species.

    The wolves are no longer endangered. In some areas they have not only recovered, but they are so plentiful their populations can be managed the way other species are managed. The North American Wildlife Conservation Model is the standard; and one of its tenets is that science be used when managing wildlife populations. Bounties and zero tolerance policies are not part of the Model.

    The science supports their delisting from the ESA. That's just the truth. This does not mean that they're going to be wiped out. It means that the process of managing them can commence. When and where it is needed.

    This takes place largely at the state level, and is public and transparent. Wildlife biologists are part of that process, utilize science to determine what (if any) management needs to occur; and then the public is invited to comment.

    We shouldn't allow emotion to take precedence over science. Wolves are beautiful, romantic, charismatic, and deadly. Where there is significant depredation, where they have abandoned natural behavior and are living in close proximity to humans, where their population rises to the point that they are negatively impacting an ecosystem, their numbers should be managed.

    The wolf is not just a predator. It's an apex predator. From a conservation standpoint this species is vital to the health of an ecosystem. From a practical standpoint, the wolf is happy to attack and snack on people, livestock, and pets, and it's a lot easier to do that than to run down an Elk in heavy snow. Wolves do not stay in their release area. They happily travel great distances. It's nice to think that they are somewhere, out there, in some vast empty land. But in truth they also exist near highly populated areas. (The Red Wolf is an example)

    But we're not going to wipe them out.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
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  6. #6
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    I love wolves.Would love to see them in the wild. I know two people that own a wolf and got to feel their coat and see their massive size up close. When I was 16 my sister and BIL had a wolf hybrid. He was mixed with a german shepard, looked like a shepard, but was HUGE!



  7. #7
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    I was amazed to learn that the wolves have resulted in an ecology change at Yellowstone.

    Because of their presence, the grazers do not stay in one spot and graze, They eat and move, eat and move, As a result, the vegetation patterns and growth have changed to a more natural growing pattern and ecology
    _\\\\]
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  8. #8
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    It really was an amazing experience. We sat on the top of a hill watching them through spotting scopes. They were feeding on a moose (we did not see them kill it) and at one point they wandered right through a herd of buffalo.

    We ended up by ourselves on that hill and finally I got the heebie jeebie on the back of my neck and decided it was time to get back in the car.
    Missouri Fox Trotters-To ride one is to own one

    Standardbreds, so much more then a harness racing horse.


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  9. #9
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    Yes, hoopoe - apex predators keep the pressure on.

    If anyone wants a good read, I'd recommend "Where the Wild Things Were" by Will Stoltzenburg. Also, "Rat Island" by the same author. I disagree with him on the eventual need to manage wolf populations; but his perspective is different which is perfectly ok. We used to work together - he's a fine person and an excellent writer.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


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  10. #10
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    Those that are against managing wolves I assume have mice nesting in their pantries and cockroaches running around their kitchens?

    Well, the same with wild life and how humans care for the animals under their charge and control their predators.

    We live in a wildlife preserve, where wildlife can raise their young and live very much undisturbed.
    When they move off into other lands, they are then hunted and/or controlled as needed, as there are more interests using those other lands, why we are a wildlife preserve in the first place.

    There is room for everyone, just have to be sensible about it.

    I saw a real, big wolf here, in a canyon, as I was opening a gate, that was not worried about my driving up and walking around, just watched me.
    I went thru the gate, closed it and went on and coming back, it was still around there, hunting whatever it was hunting, rabbits or mice or who knows.

    I notified the game warden, that was busy somewhere else and could not come, but he took the report, one of several on big grey, not smaller mexican red wolves here.

    No way to tell if it was a domestically raised one or from the North, as some do come from there at times following the Rockies and our canyons into the plains.

    One other time I saw one big, mostly black one, but that one was trotting over a caprock and back down in the canyons and I didn't really get to watch it but for a minute.

    When they first came here in 1910, there were wolf packs here and they did threaten and some attacked humans and definitely were killing livestock, so they were hunted down.
    Most everyone had a pack of greyhounds trained just for that and used them to hunt wolves down, mostly in the winters.
    After wolves were eradicated, coyotes took over, that were rare before that.
    Wolves tend to be really deadly and don't hold back, can decimate a flock of sheep, when they only need one to eat, so have a more serious effect on what they kill.
    Coyotes at least are a different sort of predator, humans and their animals have a bit better chance to make it with them around than with wolves.

    There is no action without reaction.


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  11. #11
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    Default

    I'm not against control, but there are some hunters and ranchers out there that would rather just see them gone. I for one dream of the day that I am able to get back out to Yellowstone again and hope they are still there when I finally make it
    Missouri Fox Trotters-To ride one is to own one

    Standardbreds, so much more then a harness racing horse.



  12. #12
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    Oh, you don't need to go that far, Cashela. You've got timber wolves right near you.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


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  13. #13
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    Default

    I think it's sort of sad the extreme amount of hate that some people seem to have for these animals. I've seen them described as evil and all this, and have FB friends posting photos of dead wolves, etc.

    I think it's sort of like killer whales. Apex predators do what they do, and are what they are. They are incredibly important to the ecosystem, and I think it's very important/good that they got reintroduced.

    That said, I think it's equally stupid to imbue them with some sort of spiritual quality or romanticism. I can understand being fascinated with them, but like orcas, they are NOT there to provide spiritual awakenings and whatnot.

    I think management is a smart thing, given that they are smart animals and absolutely will go for easy pickings like livestock when given the opportunity. I think the system by which ranchers get some sort of payback for lost animals needs to be improved, because I think a lot of the frustration and 'hate' is coming out of the fact that they stand to lose more than they gain. If they lose a calf, the burden of proof to show it was a wolf, and then the payback they get, is almost certainly more work and less reward than if the calf had not been killed in the first place. And that is a problem.

    Either way I think it's great that they're back out there. But I think people on both sides of the issue need to step back a little and meet in the middle.
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoopoe View Post
    I was amazed to learn that the wolves have resulted in an ecology change at Yellowstone.

    Because of their presence, the grazers do not stay in one spot and graze, They eat and move, eat and move, As a result, the vegetation patterns and growth have changed to a more natural growing pattern and ecology
    The presence of wolves at Yellowstone has also allowed the Grizzlies and other berry eating animals to flourish. Just this year a study was released that stated that due to the wolves eating prey that would compete with the bears for food items such as berries, the bears have been ingesting much more berries, which will help them go into the winter in much better shape and bring about a stronger population emerging in the Spring.

    I was in Yellowstone in June and July, and there was some discussion about this.

    http://news.discovery.com/animals/en...one-130729.htm
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  15. #15
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    As a Montana native, born and bred, and a member of the Blackfeet Nation, I look at a lot of these threads and have to laugh! How many are from out of state telling us here how to manage our wildlife? If you love wolves so much, go to where they are native such as Alaska, Canada and wherever, but don't tell us what has to be done here. The government lied to us out west about the introduction. Now, they have a problem on their hands and a major problem for ranchers, hunters and wildlife in general. Theiir current overpopulation has devastated the elk, deer and small game populations. Something the state has so diligently tried to manage over many decades! Now, in a matter of a couple, the wolves have successfully done serious damage to the eco system. I don't advocate the total annihilation of the timber/gray wolf hybrids which were planted here, but I do believe the f..king government should do something to manage their numbers. If that means total annihilation of many packs, so be it. If you aren't from here, mind your own business and take care of your own f..ked up states!


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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dklime View Post
    As a Montana native, born and bred, and a member of the Blackfeet Nation, I look at a lot of these threads and have to laugh! How many are from out of state telling us here how to manage our wildlife? If you love wolves so much, go to where they are native such as Alaska, Canada and wherever, but don't tell us what has to be done here. The government lied to us out west about the introduction. Now, they have a problem on their hands and a major problem for ranchers, hunters and wildlife in general. Theiir current overpopulation has devastated the elk, deer and small game populations. Something the state has so diligently tried to manage over many decades! Now, in a matter of a couple, the wolves have successfully done serious damage to the eco system. I don't advocate the total annihilation of the timber/gray wolf hybrids which were planted here, but I do believe the f..king government should do something to manage their numbers. If that means total annihilation of many packs, so be it. If you aren't from here, mind your own business and take care of your own f..ked up states!
    I agree with you completely. The Canadian government did the same thing and lied about it. Wolves are not a problem right where I live as the pair they released only survived a couple of years and either died or moved on, but farther west, into the Cypress Hills and on west and north from there, the problem is huge.

    I am awaiting the next failure as the bison in Grasslands Park are reproducing like rabbits and are not being culled. I expect they will make a break for freedom at some point and then there will be a mess.

    The upshot in my area from the wolf problem is we now have elk and moose here in ever growing numbers as they have moved from their normal range. We used to have rats with antlers.......er whitetails, pronghorn antelope and mule deer in this area. Last winter took care of the over population of rats with antlers but the antelope and mulies moved out with the influx of moose and elk and the gov't denies the existence of the latter but finally figured out the former are a huge problem.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dklime View Post
    As a Montana native, born and bred, and a member of the Blackfeet Nation, I look at a lot of these threads and have to laugh! How many are from out of state telling us here how to manage our wildlife? If you love wolves so much, go to where they are native such as Alaska, Canada and wherever, but don't tell us what has to be done here. The government lied to us out west about the introduction. Now, they have a problem on their hands and a major problem for ranchers, hunters and wildlife in general. Theiir current overpopulation has devastated the elk, deer and small game populations. Something the state has so diligently tried to manage over many decades! Now, in a matter of a couple, the wolves have successfully done serious damage to the eco system. I don't advocate the total annihilation of the timber/gray wolf hybrids which were planted here, but I do believe the f..king government should do something to manage their numbers. If that means total annihilation of many packs, so be it. If you aren't from here, mind your own business and take care of your own f..ked up states!
    Oh aren't you the voice of reason! Cherokee here, lived in Wyoming, my boyfriend lives in Idaho. HHmm, does that give me enough cred to be able to speak on your thread? I'm also a biologist.
    The only information I can find on wolves devastating elk and other wildlife is on pro hunting websites. I did find this, which included thoughts by a wolf hunter:

    "In an article about the first wolf killed by a hunter in northern Montana, the hunter that killed the wolf, Dan Pettit, offers some surprisingly candid commentary on wolves and elk in the Northern Rockies.

    One of the most common -- and most erroneous -- gripes from the anti-wolf community is that wolves have annihilated the elk population in the Northern Rockies.

    When asked about wolves and elk, Pettit gave an honest answer:


    "Do wolves affect elk? Absolutely. But in my opinion, the story of the wolves going into a basin and decimating the elk herd just isn't true."

    Pettit is right, the "wolves have decimated all the elk" argument isn't true, and it's encouraging to hear a wolf hunter admit that.

    What are the facts? According to the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, which is certainly not a wolf-loving organization, the elk population in the Northern Rockies has skyrocketed in the last twenty-five years, notwithstanding the reintroduction of wolves in the mid-1990s. Wyoming's elk population has grown 35%, Idaho's has grown 5%, and Montana's a whopping 66%.

    So, how have wolves affected elk? Simple: the presence of wolves on the landscape has made elk act more like . . . well, ummm . . . elk.

    When wolves, a native predator to the Northern Rockies, were eradicated from this region in the 1930s, elk lost their primary predator and stopped behaving like wild elk. They became less cautious and overbrowsed streamside vegetation, which negatively affected beavers, songbirds, and coldwater fish species like trout.

    The reintroduction of wolves has been an ecological boon to the Northern Rockies. So much so, in fact, that scientists hope to restore wolves to other ecosystems for purely ecological reasons -- chief among them the ecological devastation caused by overbrowsing elk. An article about the need to restore wolves to Olympic National Park in Washington noted:


    Most famously, [two ecologists] showed that within three years after wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone National Park and elk populations fell, pockets of trees and shrubs began rebounding. Beavers returned, coyote numbers dropped and habitat flourished for fish and birds.

    It was an "explosive" discovery, said David Graber, regional chief scientist for the National Park Service. "The whole ecosystem re-sorted itself after those wolf populations got large enough."

    The elk population in the Northern Rockies is strong -- stronger than it was a quarter century ago -- but elk use the landscape differently with wolves present -- they use it in a more natural, ecologically friendly way.

    And that means hunters have to hunt elk differently. They need to cover more ground and move around the landscape more. In essence, they need to hunt.

    Pettit admitted that, too:


    Wolves, he said, surely have changed the way deer and elk act in the wilds, and that's changing the ways hunters must hunt.

    Sure, hunters need to hunt differently nowadays, but the elk are still here, they're here in great numbers, and hunters can still find them, as evidenced by Petit's recent trip into the backcountry:


    "But in that same small basin, on the same morning we saw the eight wolves, we also saw seven cow elk. Right there in the same little drainage with the wolves.

    The very next day, in fact, one of his hunting partners shot a five-point bull elk in the same area.

    NRDC and other groups fought hard to stop the premature wolf hunts from proceeding, and it's difficult to read about Pettit or any other hunter killing a wolf.

    But it's refreshing to see a wolf hunter finally talk straight about wolves in the heated debate over how they should be managed. I hope others take notice.
    "
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    Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :


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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacetrackReject View Post
    Oh aren't you the voice of reason! Cherokee here, lived in Wyoming, my boyfriend lives in Idaho. HHmm, does that give me enough cred to be able to speak on your thread? I'm also a biologist.
    The only information I can find on wolves devastating elk and other wildlife is on pro hunting websites. I did find this, which included thoughts by a wolf hunter:

    "In an article about the first wolf killed by a hunter in northern Montana, the hunter that killed the wolf, Dan Pettit, offers some surprisingly candid commentary on wolves and elk in the Northern Rockies.

    One of the most common -- and most erroneous -- gripes from the anti-wolf community is that wolves have annihilated the elk population in the Northern Rockies.

    When asked about wolves and elk, Pettit gave an honest answer:


    "Do wolves affect elk? Absolutely. But in my opinion, the story of the wolves going into a basin and decimating the elk herd just isn't true."

    Pettit is right, the "wolves have decimated all the elk" argument isn't true, and it's encouraging to hear a wolf hunter admit that.

    What are the facts? According to the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, which is certainly not a wolf-loving organization, the elk population in the Northern Rockies has skyrocketed in the last twenty-five years, notwithstanding the reintroduction of wolves in the mid-1990s. Wyoming's elk population has grown 35%, Idaho's has grown 5%, and Montana's a whopping 66%.

    So, how have wolves affected elk? Simple: the presence of wolves on the landscape has made elk act more like . . . well, ummm . . . elk.

    When wolves, a native predator to the Northern Rockies, were eradicated from this region in the 1930s, elk lost their primary predator and stopped behaving like wild elk. They became less cautious and overbrowsed streamside vegetation, which negatively affected beavers, songbirds, and coldwater fish species like trout.

    The reintroduction of wolves has been an ecological boon to the Northern Rockies. So much so, in fact, that scientists hope to restore wolves to other ecosystems for purely ecological reasons -- chief among them the ecological devastation caused by overbrowsing elk. An article about the need to restore wolves to Olympic National Park in Washington noted:


    Most famously, [two ecologists] showed that within three years after wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone National Park and elk populations fell, pockets of trees and shrubs began rebounding. Beavers returned, coyote numbers dropped and habitat flourished for fish and birds.

    It was an "explosive" discovery, said David Graber, regional chief scientist for the National Park Service. "The whole ecosystem re-sorted itself after those wolf populations got large enough."

    The elk population in the Northern Rockies is strong -- stronger than it was a quarter century ago -- but elk use the landscape differently with wolves present -- they use it in a more natural, ecologically friendly way.

    And that means hunters have to hunt elk differently. They need to cover more ground and move around the landscape more. In essence, they need to hunt.

    Pettit admitted that, too:


    Wolves, he said, surely have changed the way deer and elk act in the wilds, and that's changing the ways hunters must hunt.

    Sure, hunters need to hunt differently nowadays, but the elk are still here, they're here in great numbers, and hunters can still find them, as evidenced by Petit's recent trip into the backcountry:


    "But in that same small basin, on the same morning we saw the eight wolves, we also saw seven cow elk. Right there in the same little drainage with the wolves.

    The very next day, in fact, one of his hunting partners shot a five-point bull elk in the same area.

    NRDC and other groups fought hard to stop the premature wolf hunts from proceeding, and it's difficult to read about Pettit or any other hunter killing a wolf.

    But it's refreshing to see a wolf hunter finally talk straight about wolves in the heated debate over how they should be managed. I hope others take notice.
    "
    I may not agree with you completely on the blackfish thread, but I agree with you here 100%.
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  19. #19
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    Reintroducing wolves at the rate they did was like reintroducing rabbits in a greenhouse.

    I don't think it was fair to any of the creatures to throw out a predator that was going to take off that fast, not fair to the wolves either.

    Yellowstone is NOT reality in any stretch, it's an over crowded mess of animals and arteries of people in a place where nearly NO animals ever spent much time until they had to.

    I live in the Cabinet Wilderness in NW MT and wolves will come kill your dog if you take it for a hike. The deer and elk are diminished and the dang deer are thicker than ticks on a hound IN CITY LIMITS b/c the pressure from the wolves are running them into town where it's safer. The system is skewed, for all the animals.

    I've slept out in the wilderness and listened to the wolves, the Bear Trap pack in the Greater Yellowstone, specifically... seen their tracks up the Hilgard. Seen them trot across my pasture here. I like and respect them but this reintroduction has not gone well, IMO.

    I agree perspectives that come from the romanticism of the animal or going on a photography tour in Yellowstone BEG BEG BEG the comparison to the orca thread. Wolves (and bears) are over-crowded and being used for research and making money in Yellowstone.

    I think wolves have a place in the wilderness but they went and took ALL the places. And did it so quickly, while wiping out outfitting, hunting, and ranching industries, that nobody had a chance to come around to the idea and polarizing the issue even further. The biologists were even shocked at how quickly they spread and reproduced. I think it should have been more gradual for a lot of reasons.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” Stephen R. Covey


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  20. #20
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    Yes, Cowboy Mom, you really have to live in the area to understand how things are. Avoiding this one but of course agree (and with dklime as well!)


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