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  1. #61
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    I'm an atheist, my sister is born again, we focus on the things we admire and love about each other, she has a good heart, she is very helpful, she prays for me and I am not offended, lots of people pray for me, what do I care? it makes them think they're doing something. I work in a catholic hospital system, I can see some of the good things people do because of their faith, I prefer to focus on those aspects and not take it personally if someone believes I will suffer eternal damnation, since I don't believe that anyway I don't care what they think.


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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    OMG! I'd never seen anything like that before.

    I made the mistake of looking at this one. What a bunch of disgusting bigots.

    http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp
    I can kill hours looking at Chick tracts. Keep in mind I'm laughing at them the whole time. The people writing them must be at least a little disturbed. Reading them is an exercise in crazy.


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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rackonteur View Post
    Bummer of an impression, Bluey! Sorry your experience of very religious people has been so narrow. Seriously.

    "Religious people" come in as many varieties as there are religions and denominations within those religions.

    Nothing in Christianity, for instance, (the religion I know most about and am no academic expert by any means! ), teaches anything about making second [class -- I assume you meant "class"] citizens of anyone. Christianity does teach love of one's neighbor, "Love your neighbor as yourself."

    Far from being exclusive, some denominations are quite eager to include everyone, even to the extent of proselytizing quite actively. That, after all, is Christianity's main mission, evangelism, sharing the Good News that Christ came to save the world.
    I did say "very religious".

    You do make my point for me in the last sentence.

    "Evangelism" is exactly what we are talking about when, as in so many instances, it is taken to those extremes that impinge on other's individual freedoms of self determination and on those of different faiths and/or no faith.

    I quit telling everyone at about 7 what the tooth fairy left for me under my pillow.

    I feel that adults telling about their religion, as you say there "Christ saving the world", is about on the same level to those that know that is mere fictional story telling.


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  4. #64
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    Nojacket, I completely agree with you. I've actually been at a dinner party where a person at the table told the rest of us we should, 'Come to Jesus.' Then there was the $5,000 he gave away to a missionary without telling his wife, telling her that the Bible says she should 'be subserviant to the man because he is the Lord of the House and all decisions should be made by him.'
    The fervor of a newbie Born Again can be a very dangerous and destructive thing with its "I'm so righteous, I'm right," outlook.


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  5. #65
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    Haven't read all replies, so forgive if this is redundant.

    Am I the only one who suspects these extreme bible thumpers are suffering from some mental illness?


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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansena View Post
    Haven't read all replies, so forgive if this is redundant.

    Am I the only one who suspects these extreme bible thumpers are suffering from some mental illness?
    There's a big resemblance to cults (and in many cases, I think it is cult like behavior).

    From NIH:

    Unprecedented escalation of secular and religious cults has necessitated further inquiry into more precise conditions under which individuals develop vulnerability and become converted by these groups. The present discussion focuses on a number of factors which seem to influence individuals' susceptibility and recruitment by cults. These variables include (a) generalized ego-weakness and emotional vulnerability, (b) propensities toward dissociative states, (c) tenuous, deteriorated, or nonexistent family relations and support systems, (d) inadequate means of dealing with exigencies of survival, (e) history of severe child abuse or neglect, (f) exposure to idiosyncratic or eccentric family patterns, (g) proclivities toward or abuse of controlled substances, (h) unmanageable and debilitating situational stress and crises, and (i) intolerable socioeconomic conditions. Also presented are methods utilized by cults, e.g., intimidation, coercion, and indoctrination, for systematically recruiting, initiating, and influencing inductees. More careful attention to these factors might help health care providers, educators, clergy, and concerned family and friends determine more precisely individuals at greater risk for recruitment into cults.
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  7. #67
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    Okay, your personal position aside, let's not forget we're talking about our fellow human beings. "Bible thumpers" are people.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).


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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    Okay, your personal position aside, let's not forget we're talking about our fellow human beings. "Bible thumpers" are people.

    Paula
    Yes they are, but the extreme evangelical worship is cult like.

    "Cults are manipulative, deceptive. They do what they believe they must to entice you.
    • They’re exclusive; they always claim to have the “only right way.” And everyone else is hellbound.
    • Cults use spiritual, psychological, and financial exploitation. They catch you at the emotional rather than logical level.
    • They are totalitarian; you must think, feel, and act in the group’s prescribed manner at all times. (Now, that’s scary!)
    • Commits—or at least, threatens—psychological or physical harm to members and/or their families, in this life or the life to come. They may even preach that a punishing deity is always watching you."
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    I did say "very religious".

    You do make my point for me in the last sentence.

    "Evangelism" is exactly what we are talking about when, as in so many instances, it is taken to those extremes that impinge on other's individual freedoms of self determination and on those of different faiths and/or no faith.

    I quit telling everyone at about 7 what the tooth fairy left for me under my pillow.

    I feel that adults telling about their religion, as you say there "Christ saving the world", is about on the same level to those that know that is mere fictional story telling.
    Who are "those that know that is mere fictional story telling"? They don't know, because it is not "mere fictional story telling." That is where faith comes in. Believing and trusting 'til one does come to know, in one's heart.

    There are people in the world who truly believe that sitting on a moving horse is the same thing as riding. They do not know the truth, because they have never experienced it. They are convinced they have ridden horses because they have sat on a moving horse. It is so cool when they do realize there is more to it. When they stop looking surprised and puzzled when you talk about working on something with the horse, when you talk about communicating with the horse. And then, if and when they ever get back on a horse and ride .... awesome.

    My favorite quote from C.S. Lewis:
    These small and perishable bodies we now have were given to us as ponies are given to schoolboys. We must learn to manage: not that we may some day be free of horses altogether but that some day we may ride bare-back, confident and rejoicing, those greater mounts, those winged, shining and world- shaking horses which perhaps even now expect us with impatience, pawing and snorting in the King’s stables. Not that the gallop would be of any value unless it were a gallop with the King; but how else— since He has retained His own charger—should we accompany Him?
    http://www.biblegateway.com/devotion...ily/2014/04/07
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wellspotted View Post
    Who are "those that know that is mere fictional story telling"? They don't know, because it is not "mere fictional story telling." That is where faith comes in. Believing and trusting 'til one does come to know, in one's heart.

    There are people in the world who truly believe that sitting on a moving horse is the same thing as riding. They do not know the truth, because they have never experienced it. They are convinced they have ridden horses because they have sat on a moving horse. It is so cool when they do realize there is more to it. When they stop looking surprised and puzzled when you talk about working on something with the horse, when you talk about communicating with the horse. And then, if and when they ever get back on a horse and ride .... awesome.

    My favorite quote from C.S. Lewis:


    http://www.biblegateway.com/devotion...ily/2014/04/07
    To anyone that is not a believer, whatever those that believe tell is stories told about fictional figures.

    There are plenty that are not christians and think just that of the christian mythology, just as christians think other religions are, why they choose to be christians and "evangelize" away.

    I know that for believers of all kinds of faiths, what they believe is very real and also know why that may be so.

    Then, when you look at the big picture of what all religions are and how they fit in this world between all what we know and all humans, those that are believers of any kind and those that are not, you realize that something is not adding up to how real faith of all kinds may be, that indeed it is stories people tell about fictional figures, no matter how real they seem to them.

    That is why it is called "faith", by definition believing something without proof, on "faith".


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  11. #71
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    I don't believe other religious stories are mythology, and find it rather tasteless of you to suggest that. See, in most cultures, the religious back story is *history*. I can no more say one is right or wrong than you can. I have chosen who I follow, because his message resonated with me, but I cannot say that the people who follow Buddha or Krishna don't have that same truth for themselves. And even for those who profess not to follow anyone, I won't call your beliefs silly or myths, so it'd be really really cool if you could extend that courtesy to your fellow man.

    There's a lot of archaeology that proves that much of the Books of the Bible actually happened. To dismiss that dismisses the entire history of the Jewish race. Not cool.


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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    I don't believe other religious stories are mythology, and find it rather tasteless of you to suggest that. See, in most cultures, the religious back story is *history*. I can no more say one is right or wrong than you can. I have chosen who I follow, because his message resonated with me, but I cannot say that the people who follow Buddha or Krishna don't have that same truth for themselves. And even for those who profess not to follow anyone, I won't call your beliefs silly or myths, so it'd be really really cool if you could extend that courtesy to your fellow man.

    There's a lot of archaeology that proves that much of the Books of the Bible actually happened. To dismiss that dismisses the entire history of the Jewish race. Not cool.
    No, not dismissing history, but the idea of gods directing that history, as those that believe that on faith insist.

    And yes, many think their religion is the one and only and the rest are false gods and prophets.
    Surely you don't deny that?


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  13. #73
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    Indeed, Bluey, many a human dismisses other people's beliefs as nonsense bordering on insanity.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).


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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    Indeed, Bluey, many a human dismisses other people's beliefs as nonsense bordering on insanity.

    Paula
    To christians, muslims religion, viking, greek and roman mythologies and other are flights of fancy about gods that never existed.
    Why are they so defensive when others see christian religion the same, when it is all based on believing all those stories on faith alone?


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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    Indeed, Bluey, many a human dismisses other people's beliefs as nonsense bordering on insanity.

    Paula
    To christians, muslims religion, viking, greek and roman mythologies and other are flights of fancy about gods that never existed.
    Why are they so defensive when others see christian religion the same, when it is all based on believing all those stories on faith alone?


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  16. #76
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    Yeah, I think I was too coy on that observation.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).


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  17. #77
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    Not all Christians believe that, Bluey. Not even the Pope. So far, the only absolutism that I've seen is from you. I'm not offended for me, I'm offended for all people of faith, including Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews...insert other religions here.

    My faith stands despite your continued attempts to tell the rest of us saps how it really is. As though we hadn't read what you have read, as if having faith is just a matter of not having the information you have. Have you ever stopped to think that perhaps we had been exposed to the things you were exposed to, and simply understood things *differently* than you do?


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  18. #78
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    I think, based on what Bluey has revealed at various times about her background, that none of the rest of us have been exposed to anything like what she has been through. Which may or may not have anything to do with her religiosity or lack thereof.

    I am Jewish and quite firmly agnostic. I have faith that G-d, if G-d exists, understands faith far better than any of us mere humans.
    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

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  19. #79
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    I am happily agnostic. I've had two people who consider themselves born again who are very close to me (neither is recent).

    One is my sister--she is a very "live and let live" kind of person, she believes that truth can present itself in many forms, and she and never mentions her faith unless I ask her a specific question. She knows I don't share it, and that doesn't seem to be a problem for her. We've remained close, and I value our relationship.

    The other is someone I've been friends with for about 50 years, since we were children. She considered herself born again when I first met her, when we were six or seven years old. When I was too young to know how to say no, I let her drag me to church a couple of times, and finally I felt so uncomfortable that I put my foot down. We've kept up our friendship (from a distance as I moved away when we were 10), but recently she started pushing me. I had to get some distance from her as I will not tolerate being lectured by anyone. I feel bad, as she told me that she doesn't want to go to heaven without me. But I simply do not share her beliefs, I told her so, and it seems she cannot respect the boundary I've set.

    The rather odd thing about my sister being born again is that we were raised as cultural, secular Jews (no religious upbringing at all--I've always identified as Jewish, even though I don't believe). But whatever works for her is fine.

    Rebecca


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  20. #80
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    It always amazes me how "devout" my band of criminals at work are. More than a few believers and zealots here.

    Lots of saving to be done, not a lot of repenting though.


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  21. #81
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    I think, based on what Bluey has revealed at various times about her background, that none of the rest of us have been exposed to anything like what she has been through. Which may or may not have anything to do with her religiosity or lack thereof.
    I know that she suffered and for that I am very sorry.

    And I'm perfectly fine with her atheism, really honestly. My mom is an atheist too, and I respect that position. What I am NOT okay with is her dismissing all people of ANY faith.

    She wants to be free to be an atheist without being looked down upon, and I think people of faith (all different ones) should have the same freedom. That is what I am saying.


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