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  1. #1
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    Default Proposed Rule Change - Martingales

    How NICE to see that there is the possibility of a running martingale being considered standard hunter tack again! Way to go USHJA.

    https://www.usef.org/documents/ruleChanges/513-13.pdf
    Cherry Blossom Farm - Show & Field Hunters, Side Saddles


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  2. #2
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    Default

    Oh wow! I'm not old enough to have been around when running martingales were used in the hunter ring, so out of curiosity--why were they determined at some point to be unconventional if they were OK originally?
    Quote Originally Posted by rustbreeches View Post
    [George Morris] doesn't always drink beer, but when he does, he prefers Dos Equis



  3. #3
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    "Standing and running martingales used in the conventional manner are allowed for all over fences classes." I would love to see a definition of "conventional manner" that excluded leaning on a standing martingale every step of the way.
    madeline
    * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis


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  4. #4
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    OK? Back in the old days, for Corinthian (Formal attire, appointments classes) only running martingales were allowed...
    madeline
    * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis


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  5. #5
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    I'm not sure why a running wouldn't be considered unconventional since for it to even work, the horse has to be pulling his head up.
    .אני יכול לעשות הכל על ידי אלוהים


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  6. #6
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hunterrider23 View Post
    I'm not sure why a running wouldn't be considered unconventional since for it to even work, the horse has to be pulling his head up.
    Same is true for the standing.

    Most horses seem to hit the standing when they land off a fence, which should not happen with a running martingale.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  7. #7
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    How would this affect the equitation divisions? Currently there is no specification for which type of martingale is to be used (EQ109.2 just says that "martingales" are allowed over fences) except for the USET and the Washington Jumper Phase which both mandate a running. Does this mean that running martingales have been permitted all along in equitation classes over fences and are just unused because they would be considered unconventional for a hunter class per HU125, so that, if the rule passes, we might see horses wearing them in the Maclay?
    "I'm not always sarcastic. Sometimes I'm asleep."
    - Harry Dresden

    Horse Isle 2: Legend of the Esrohs LifeCycle Breeding and competition MMORPG



  8. #8
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    Many horses that I saw in the Maclay were hitting the standing every stride...
    madeline
    * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis


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  9. #9
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    Aug. 31, 2011
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hunterrider23 View Post
    I'm not sure why a running wouldn't be considered unconventional since for it to even work, the horse has to be pulling his head up.
    Actually, the running martingale was once much more common than the standing for serious hunters and jumpers. It's actually more "conventional" in that respect. I took a long break from the horse world and was very surprised to find when I returned that the standing martingale is now considered standard equipment for hunters and eq. horses. I believe many European riders are astonished that American riders think nothing of jumping 3'6' courses with a standing martingale--many of them consider it unsafe.
    I heard a neigh. Oh, such a brisk and melodious neigh as that was! My very heart leaped with delight at the sound. --Nathaniel Hawthorne


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  10. #10
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    A hunter, by definition, should move with a long, low frame with a daisy cutting stride. This is incompatable with a running martingale, the purpose of which is to change the action of the bit onto the bars from the corner of the lips. A running martingale is an additional form of brakes. Nothing advertises "I can't stop" better than a running martingale. There will be hunters who go around their course in a proper frame with their running martingale properly looped. But even seeing one on a horse advertises that the horse's brakes are not secure.
    ~Kryswyn~ Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryswyn View Post
    A hunter, by definition, should move with a long, low frame with a daisy cutting stride. This is incompatable with a running martingale, the purpose of which is to change the action of the bit onto the bars from the corner of the lips. A running martingale is an additional form of brakes. Nothing advertises "I can't stop" better than a running martingale. There will be hunters who go around their course in a proper frame with their running martingale properly looped. But even seeing one on a horse advertises that the horse's brakes are not secure.
    I am confused. Exactly what message does a standing martingale adjusted so that it is under constant tension give? I realize that on a perfectly manicured surface there is little need for a horse to be able to recover from a stumble, but I would really like to know that a horse could use his head and neck if necessary.
    madeline
    * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis


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  12. #12
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    Dec. 22, 2011
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryswyn View Post
    A hunter, by definition, should move with a long, low frame with a daisy cutting stride. This is incompatable with a running martingale, the purpose of which is to change the action of the bit onto the bars from the corner of the lips. A running martingale is an additional form of brakes. Nothing advertises "I can't stop" better than a running martingale. There will be hunters who go around their course in a proper frame with their running martingale properly looped. But even seeing one on a horse advertises that the horse's brakes are not secure.
    If the hunter is going in a long, low frame, that should be perfectly compatible with a properly fitted running martingale. It shouldn't come into play unless the horse raises its head too high.

    Somehow I doubt that nearly every grand prix rider "can't stop".

    Does a standing martingale on a hunter advertise that the horse flips its head?


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  13. #13
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    Over here it is very rare to see someone ride in a standing martingale and they are not allowed in competition. However a running martingale is very common and (I wouldn't be sure of the figures) I'd guess 80% of horses wear them as standard kit rather than for any particular reason. Of course they can't be used in dressage or in showing (on the flat no jumping).


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  14. #14
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    I am 43 and it is news to me that running martingales used to be commonplace in the hunters - I never recall seeing them when I was showing as a kid (granted, I didn't show at the really big shows). But now that I think about GM's "good old days" photos, a lot of them had running martingales. It would be tough for me to get used to that look though.

    I would like to know if an "unconventional" snaffle includes the ones with the little rings to hold cheek pieces and reins in place and give you some leverage?

    And they are pretty vague as to what an illegal noseband is - would a crank be illegal or legal?



  15. #15
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    Default I think that in the hunters they ought to do away with them altogether.

    Really.

    I swear some of the horses don't need them, people just slap them on to complete some sort of imaginary "look".

    I'm with Wofford, they only need them as a young horse til they stop thinking that head up is an evasion.

    Comes off as soon as that evasion stops.

    But I'm a dinosaur, what do I know?


    I shudder to think of some of these poor horses in some of the o/f classes. Bad enough hands without compounding it with a running martingale. It will be ugly. Really ugly.

    Besides, with all the "crest release" posers, it'll just be flopping around over fences anyway.


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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    Many horses that I saw in the Maclay were hitting the standing every stride...
    Those martingales were so taut, you could play Ode to Joy on them with a comb,
    F O.B
    Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
    Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique


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  17. #17
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    Every time I see a thread about standing martingales and the hunters, I am reminded of this passage from Jane Marshall Dillon:

    "Naturally, anyone knew that a standing martingale, tying the horse's head down, was just a clear admission that the rider had rough hands and didn't know how to school!"
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline View Post
    I am confused. Exactly what message does a standing martingale adjusted so that it is under constant tension give? I realize that on a perfectly manicured surface there is little need for a horse to be able to recover from a stumble, but I would really like to know that a horse could use his head and neck if necessary.
    A standing martingale's purpose is to keep the horse from raising his head and avoiding the bit. Correctly adjusted it does just that; loose until the horse raises his head when it becomes taught.

    Currently in the hunter ring, usually adjusted incorrectly, it serves a secondary purpose of allowing the horse to balance on it, keeping himself in a frame.

    Judges know when martingales are too tight, and they can also see if the horse's head and neck are being restricted.

    Also, in the hunter ring, a standing martingale is part of the look. You can tell those because they are adjusted correctly and there's always a loop and they are never stretched taut. Those horses have had better training.
    Last edited by Kryswyn; Nov. 10, 2013 at 04:05 PM.
    ~Kryswyn~ Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo
    Check out my Kryswyn JRTs on Facebook

    "Life is merrier with a terrier!"


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  19. #19
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    I agree with Kryswyn, judges aren't stupid, they know their stuff, they can tell if a standing is adjusted correctly.
    Both of my horses wear them, on one of them it is purely aesthetic, his neck is a bit long and the martingale helps to break it up and make a prettier picture. The other one is young and on occasion will land from a big effort, and throw his head up with a little squeal. I would much rather have him hit the end of a standing so the pressure is applied through the noseband, then have the running come into effect and apply pressure through the bit.



  20. #20
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    Jun. 10, 2009
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    Years ago, standing martingales were considered unsafe at higher fences, at least in Africa and the UK. Hunting in England, I saw lots of running martingales but no standing martingales because a horse might need the use of its head and neck after a fence when jumping into deep ground. I hate the standing martingales on hunters. My old hunter wore one for the "look" (trainer pick, not mine) and the new one did when he was young for the purpose of a standing: to help him stay low to the fences. He doesn't wear one now.
    kenyagirl


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