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  1. #221
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    Bilbo - The mustang!
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."



  2. #222
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    While I am not a fan of breed stereotyping, I am surprised that I haven't seen anyone mention Dalmatians.

    When I was a kid, I walked the neighbors' Dalmatian every day. I wasn't being paid, I just loved animals of all sorts. The daily routine was to pick up Charlie at their front door, walk him for 30 to 45 minutes, then come back and put him in the kitchen via an outside door. Sometimes they were home when I got back, sometimes they weren't. One hot day they were sitting out in the backyard. I let Charlie into the kitchen, then stopped and chatted with the owners for a few minutes. They offered me a glass of lemonade, and told me to grab the pitcher from the fridge. I opened the kitchen door and Charlie ran across the room, leapt into the air, and bit me across the face. The dog I had walked and handled not five minutes before!

    I don't think I walked Charlie with any regularity after that. I'm a little bit uncomfortable with dogs lo these many years later. I just recently encountered a surly Dalmatian in the vet waiting room; he was muzzled, and I was glad!

    Quite a few people to whom I've related this story have had bad Dalmatian experiences. Later, when I was a young adult, a coworker of mine had his nose bitten off by a Dalmatian. The dog was sleeping under the dining room table. My friend dropped his napkin and reached under the table for it. Bye-bye nose.

    Someone told me, no idea if this is accurate, that 101 Dalmatians caused a surge of breeding quantity over quality. With domestic animals, I pretty much figure it's always the human's fault.

    Edited to add: I just noticed that Simkie posted about Dalmatians. Similar experiences to what I've seen and heard.
    Arrange whatever pieces come your way. - Virginia Woolf

    Did you know that if you say the word "GULLIBLE" really softly, it sounds like "ORANGES"?



  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    no, I was just being mean and making fun of you.



    GAB, you were the one who dissed sweeping generalizations before making one....not me. I make generalizations all the time.
    Actually, you were being touchy. Face it. Snarky too.

    I did not even make a generalization. Here's my actual quote: Some current dog trainers just thank the dog for growling and then they wave their hands and say "omg, the dog is aggressive!" They either stuff the dog full of treats or suggest euthanasia.

    Saying "some" is not making a sweeping generalization. It's clear you identify as being one of "some current dog trainers" but that's not my problem. Please quit making stuff up.

    Look, just because you and some others who post here are unable or unwilling to use a method that works for many dog owners doesn't make it inhumane, mean, or not as good a method as yours. Fact.



  4. #224
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    In the spirit of the initial subject of this thread, I'll say that the most aggressive dogs I've seen were German Shepard crosses, a Great Dane, and a Rottweiler.



  5. #225
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    Dec. 18, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    An animal certainly can learn a lesson from a one time incident.
    Yes, I think it's possible, but you may not have any control over what they actually "learn" and take away from that one time incident. So, for that reason, I would not call it "training."



  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    Actually, you were being touchy. Face it. Snarky too.

    I did not even make a generalization. Here's my actual quote: Some current dog trainers just thank the dog for growling and then they wave their hands and say "omg, the dog is aggressive!" They either stuff the dog full of treats or suggest euthanasia.

    Saying "some" is not making a sweeping generalization. It's clear you identify as being one of "some current dog trainers" but that's not my problem. Please quit making stuff up.

    Look, just because you and some others who post here are unable or unwilling to use a method that works for many dog owners doesn't make it inhumane, mean, or not as good a method as yours. Fact.
    You are making SWEEPING generalizations. It is not beneficial to drive the dog to the point that it growls or snaps. That is why some many of the "old school" trainers get bit, they do not respect the dog or its cues.
    Bilbo - The mustang!
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."



  7. #227
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    Nov. 11, 2008
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    I'm currently living between the two most human aggressive dogs I've had the displeasure to meet: on one side the chihuahua who runs across both our front yards to bite me and on the other side the 3-legged pit bull who growls whenever we are in our yard and who jumps up and has bit my mother over the 4-foot fence on 3 separate occasions (reported her to animal control and DHEC- guess she IS current on rabies).



  8. #228
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    I was involved in a situation with an azawakh that I helped rescue at 16 weeks. Rescued 2 16 week old puppies who were being kept in a 4' x 4' pen (with two 300 crates in there as well) and fed only occasionally. They were skin and bones with pasterns touching the ground when I got them out. They were fine and first and with good care seemed to really come around. The one is fine now but the more dominent of the two developed first major food aggression, then human aggression (had to keep a snow shovel between you and the dog for your own safety). The dog was euthanized.

    The other littermates and both parents were fine so the thinking was that the food deprivation when very young may have caused some brain issues.



  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by MustangSavvy View Post
    thanks for this MustangSavvy! I did not know Nicole had a blog!



  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    Actually, you were being touchy. Face it. Snarky too.
    Snarky yes. Touchy, no.



  11. #231
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    Aug. 21, 2002
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    Two St Brnards. Owned by the same family, bot were inclined to bite unfamiliar men. Two Great pyrenees. Euthanized due to r aggression or management issues

    Llassa apsos seem to bite for no good reason.
    As a regular petssitter, I have to say that the German Shephards are the best. They stick close and come when called but don't need every second attention



  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1969 View Post
    Yes, I think it's possible, but you may not have any control over what they actually "learn" and take away from that one time incident. So, for that reason, I would not call it "training."
    Silly semantics. You certainly CAN have control over what they learn. If the animal learns something, that is training, for all practical purposes. You can build on and reinforce the lesson, but a lesson can be learned as a one time incident.

    What you're saying does not match up with my experience.



  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    Snarky yes. Touchy, no.
    Congratulations!



  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by MustangSavvy View Post
    I wouldn't likely correct a dog for growling at another dog, but if it's growling at me, that's another story. You see, the owner is supposed to be top dog. Makes life easier and happier for everyone, including the dog. Articles like that basically suggest that you do what the dog wants or distract it with a treat so that you won't get bitten.

    Yes, there are different reasons why a dog might growl, and dealing with those reasons involve different strategies. But it's a dog owner's job to teach the dog that there are different ways to deal with a situation other than aggression. Growling will often escalate to aggression.

    Quote Originally Posted by MustangSavvy View Post
    You are making SWEEPING generalizations. It is not beneficial to drive the dog to the point that it growls or snaps. That is why some many of the "old school" trainers get bit, they do not respect the dog or its cues.
    I suggest you look up the definitions of the words "sweeping" and "generalization". And try to get in touch with the logical part of your brain. You sound like you are about 16, maybe less.
    Last edited by grayarabpony; Oct. 27, 2013 at 11:31 AM.



  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    Ahem, what matters is how the dog acts with HER. The dog may still growl at other people. What the heck? Dogs don't all act the same with different people.
    The issue for me is that I absolutely expect my dogs to behave the same way to every person in most situations. Me "paddling" my dog so that he's scared/respectful enough of me to jump off the couch when I come close isn't going to help matters when someone else gets near the couch. And yes, I went through a short period where my younger dog would sometimes growl if you tried to pick him up off the couch or chair. I didn't need him to think "Oh, here comes that 'pack leader'/scary person/raving lunatic, I better get up" when he was on the chair; I needed him to be completely fine with anyone from me, to my mother, to my nephew grabbing his collar and pulling him off the chair.

    So I taught him that people grabbing his collar and dragging him around was a fun game. That people picking him up in their arms (which he didn't like either) meant cookies were incoming. If you hold your hand out anywhere near his neck, he THROWS his collar into your hand because this is how the game starts. Problem solved. I have zero concerns about people moving him around now, even if I'm not in the room to give him the evil eye as 'pack leader'.

    He's an odd, touchy little dog. I think he could easily have become nasty and snappy in the wrong home, and he's the type of dog that I think would absolutely take corrections, back off and internalize until the day that he finally snapped. Instead he's turned into a funny, confident little sport dog who spends his waking hours looking for an opportunity to earn rewards. He's safe with kids. He's fun to live with.

    And honestly, I just don't like hitting my dogs. It's not why I own them. It doesn't create the type of dog with which I like living and working. There is no doubt in my mind that positive punishment works in a lot of situations - it's why it still persists despite the other options out there. I think ignoring that fact does nothing to benefit those promoting positive reinforcement based training. Punishment works.

    There are downfalls to both types of training. Punishment (done correctly) works quickly to stop behaviors. Downsides: It stops behaviors, creating dogs who are less willing to try new things (maybe a positive to some people). You do not always control what the dog will associate the punishment with (true with reward training as well, but less fall out). The fence collar above is a good example. Another is the experience of someone I used to work with, who is one of the best trainers I've ever known; she used to work with marine animal shows. Her dog was starting to growl and rush the door when people came over, so she used a shock collar (this was a long time ago). Rather than "when I charge the door it hurts" the dog clearly processed it as "when people come to the door it hurts", and for the rest of his life, they had to put the dog away when people came over, because his aggression to people coming into the house just escalated.

    Positive trained dogs can also have downsides. Especially with the ones who are very savvy to shaping, you can unknowingly reward behaviors without realizing what it is the dog thinks the reward is for; the difference is that when they are seeking a cookie rather than looking to avoid a punishment, the result is less likely to include aggression. You can get dogs like my younger dog who constantly try to play you like a slot machine, looking for reinforcement. When I'm standing around a parking lot talking to someone and he starts to back up their legs into a handstand because sometimes that means a reward, I think it is hysterical - not everyone may think the same way. You may get paired behaviors that you don't realize, because the dog is trying to work out what gets the reward - in teaching my dog to bark on cue, I didn't process that he was pairing it with down, so now he can't down without barking or bark without downing (winter project to fix that). A lot of people don't want a dog who seeks interaction. They want a houseplant that sits quietly on a bed until they want to do something with the dog. A positively trained dog can absolutely learn to do that, but it is often something you need to make a point to train/reinforce.

    At the end of the day, for me, it comes down to what I can live with, both in terms of the dogs' behavior and my own. I've been in one seminar situation where the trainer encouraged much more correction based training than I've ever done with either of my dogs (and I'm not talking smacking or much in the way of physical corrections). I saw my confident young dog start to shut down. He hid in a tunnel at one point. I went home practically in tears because I felt I had failed him by continuing to participate. That's not what I want in a dog.


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  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
    At the end of the day, for me, it comes down to what I can live with, both in terms of the dogs' behavior and my own. I've been in one seminar situation where the trainer encouraged much more correction based training than I've ever done with either of my dogs (and I'm not talking smacking or much in the way of physical corrections). I saw my confident young dog start to shut down. He hid in a tunnel at one point. I went home practically in tears because I felt I had failed him by continuing to participate. That's not what I want in a dog.
    Good post.

    I went to a dog show handling seminar (of all silly things) and my dog shut down because we were not allowed to reward with food. He tried to run back to his crate.

    He wasn't afraid, or being beaten, or anything 'bad' - but he didn't "get it" and got confused. He thought he was doing the right thing, but without reinforcement, he didn't seem to know for sure and got very anxious.

    Working with a dog is a partnership -- no one method (reinforcement or punishment, positive or negative) works for every situation or for every dog. Using the right tools for each job is the better approach.

    And I agree - teaching a dog not to growl at "the pack leader" for example, but allowing it to growl at other people, or other dogs in various situations, is not a great idea. Actual training would teach it to DO something, or NOT to do something based on specific commands and consequences for correct or incorrect responses. If more people used actual training, fewer situations would occur where the babysitter has to decide whether to paddle someone else's dog.



  17. #237
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    I was cornered once by 2 Rottweilers, and I can safely say Ive never been so scared before or since in my entire life. After they were called off I just dissolved into tears. Ruined my interest in big dogs. My neighbor was badly mauled by a pitbull. Now Id just as soon shoot a Rottweiler or pittbull as look at them. Im sure thats not a popular opinion, but I dont care.

    I know people love to defend those dogs by saying they know chihuahuas or shiz zu (sP)s that will bite, but Ive never heard of anyone killed by them. Any time I see a big dog close by, my heart starts pounding. Its not a good feeling.


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  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    I wouldn't likely correct a dog for growling at another dog, but if it's growling at me, that's another story. You see, the owner is supposed to be top dog. Makes life easier and happier for everyone, including the dog. Articles like that basically suggest that you do what the dog wants or distract it with a treat so that you won't get bitten.

    Yes, there are different reasons why a dog might growl, and dealing with those reasons involve different strategies. But it's a dog owner's job to teach the dog that there are different ways to deal with a situation other than aggression. Growling will often escalate to aggression.



    I suggest you look up the definitions of the words "sweeping" and "generalization". And try to get in touch with the logical part of your brain. You sound like you are about 16, maybe less.
    You are not the dog's boss. Dominance theory was dis-proven, years ago. Hence, why that training is old school and incorrect. Hence, why growling is a good thing because it precedes the actual bite. I would much rather have my dog growl before biting then bite without warning.

    Dog's should not be put in the situation where aggression is the only way out, we need to set them up for success not failure.

    You may want to get in touch with the logical part of your brain, but you are clearly incapable of logic and reason. Saying those things is still a generalization and is not necessary. You may want to do some research.

    How the hell does my age have anything to do with anything? It doesn't, not even remotely. I work at a animal shelter, I work with top trainers and I know what I am talking about. Just because I am 19, does not mean I cannot have knowledge. I am a hell of a lot more mature and responsible then many adults. You are being incredibly rude and making sweeping generalizations again.
    Bilbo - The mustang!
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."



  19. #239
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    So... those who expect their dogs to be respectful must use be using force, terrorizing their dogs, then. I guess?

    I don't hit, beat, smack or spank my dogs. But they also better not growl at me. They get chewed out if they do something against the rules - like chase the cat... and they are very sorry for their mistake and then they get cuddled and hugged and rewarded.

    I don't hit, beat, smack or spank my kids either. But they also better not back talk or be disrespectful to me, DH or other adults. Or they get sent to their room for time out. Then they say they are sorry and we discuss how they can fix their behavior.

    My horses - well, they do get a quick smack for being cheeky. And then, when they are good, they get petted and treats.

    you do NOT have to beat or terrify something to gain respect. In fact, terrifying some one is NOT the way to get good behavior. But again, in my little world - RESPECT is very important.

    Given how so many on these threads rant and rave about naughty children and disrespectful people, they would be more attune to respectful behavior.

    By the way, one my dogs was laying on the couch. He just looked at me like "really, I'm here". I went all ape on his butt and... oh wait. No. I just sat on the edge of the couch and leaned back over him into his space. he sighed and moved off the couch... no growls, no hits. He did get his butt scratched when he got down, though.


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  20. #240
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    Shiba Inus are popular here in NY. While I think they are beautiful, I have yet to meet a nice one.



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