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  1. #201
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    Yes, telling a dog to get down is what you'd do with a trained dog that respected you. That's how it's supposed to work!

    She was taking care of the dog (Boston terrier), I'm not surprised she wanted the dog to show some manners.



  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    Not false at all. You just don't know any better and are making a sweeping generalization based on false assumptions. Growling and snapping IS a way for a dog to put you in your place. Not acceptable in my house. So I TRAIN the dog, and that begins with the dog respecting me, not just getting a treat.
    text in red mine.

    They either stuff the dog full of treats or suggest euthanasia.
    wait! That was a sweeping generalization! Oh noes!

    Perhaps there really isn't much hope for aggressive dogs, but the current methods certainly don't seem to be any better than the old ones. I dunno, I haven't dealt with an aggressive dog because our family always nipped that sort of behavior in the bud.
    of course you did. and that fixed it byGawd!

    My dog got off the couch because I said so. lol Sometimes the dog just has to do what you say, whether they want to or not, just like kids and horses. Guess what she loved me to pieces.
    I had a client once, who had a rescued dog. Had you used this on him, you would have been missing a nose and perhaps all or most of the skin on your face. He was a very self confident dog who had learned how to use his mouth and wasn't afraid of being punished. However, if you asked him politely, and you were clear about what you wanted, he would do it. This dog was faster, bigger than I was and I value my face far too much to have argued with him. He was actually quite a nice dog, once he understood what you wanted, but had you forced him...you would have lost.

    The funniest thing about this is that people are criticizing something that worked. The dog didn't growl at her again and didn't bite her either.
    I'm glad for her. But I think she was lucky, it was a Boston and not this dog I knew.



  3. #203
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    What is the redeeming value in a dog that will rip your face off?

    Isn't this the thread where we're talking about breeding for temperment?


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  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboymom View Post
    What is the redeeming value in a dog that will rip your face off?

    Isn't this the thread where we're talking about breeding for temperment?
    Personally? I didn't care for the dog, but he wasn't mine and the owner(s) felt he was worth saving. He was a client and I was being paid to help them.



  5. #205
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    I may be too late for the actual aggressive dog portion of this, but working at a vet clinic the worst dog I ever encountered was a wolf hybrid. Extremely beautiful, big white boy that was abandoned during boarding and eventually had to be PTS. He could not be handled except with a catch pole and gave zero warning about attacking. He'd even launch himself at the kennel door. I'm sure his issues could largely be attributed to upbringing.

    The worst, and only scary dog I've ever encountered in a home situation, was a duck tolling retriever/lab mix that belonged to friends of ours. She was completely untrustworthy, and always had this look in her eyes like she was just waiting for an opportunity to bite you. I'd swear she was calculating the whole time. She bit both of her owners on multiple occasions and bit both DH and I twice, always very aggressive sneak attacks with zero provocation. She would actually seek you out to bite.

    They finally had her PTS when she bit their infant.



  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    Personally? I didn't care for the dog, but he wasn't mine and the owner(s) felt he was worth saving. He was a client and I was being paid to help them.
    I wondered what his redeeming feature was? Was he cute? I just wonder what a dog can do or be that makes it worth risking someone getting their face ripped off. Strange priorities in people sometimes.


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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboymom View Post
    I wondered what his redeeming feature was? Was he cute? I just wonder what a dog can do or be that makes it worth risking someone getting their face ripped off. Strange priorities in people sometimes.
    I think she felt sorry for him (rescue), and he was not aggressive to her. Just to strangers (which is why the post about the Boston brought the memory to the surface).

    I don't understand people who keep aggressive dogs, they are such a liability. I would hate to have a first responder not get to me in time, because a dog was standing between me and them.



  8. #208
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    With respect to dog training and punishment of a growling dog not wanting to move off his space... (and no, I do not claim to be an expert, btw)

    Wouldn't a useful question be what would the boss dog do? When we had multiple canines in one house of varying ages, I happen to know that the old lady, may she RIP, bit the ear of an disrespectful puppy and chewed his butt vocally and w/ strong body language that he.will.treat.her.respectfully. There were no long lasting repercussions. It was over and down in 10 seconds. And he didn't cross the line again for at least a few weeks...

    I've seen a momma cat tolerate the kitten chewing on her - until he bit down too hard and then she nailed him. Over and done. Kitten got the message.

    Momma horse hit her nursing baby so hard in the butt w/ her mouth that he bounced. He was nursing very roughly. He got the message.

    Perhaps don't we over analyze too much... make corrections too long, drawn out and difficult for a dog/cat/horse to relate the mistake w/ the correction?

    And one more thought - isn't there a big difference using positive reinforcement to train a dog to do wanted behavior and a strong correction to instill respectful behavior in a herd/pack animal?


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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by millerra View Post
    Wouldn't a useful question be what would the boss dog do?
    no. I'm not a dog, and cannot do what dogs do to each other.

    Perhaps don't we over analyze too much... make corrections too long, drawn out and difficult for a dog/cat/horse to relate the mistake w/ the correction?
    you must analyze the situation you find yourself in. Dogs are faster and stronger than we are, they can get a bite in before you know it.

    Just like good horse trainers, good dog trainers don't even let it get to that point, but if they acquire a dog who has the behavior in place, they will try to prevent it before they use confrontational responses. A trainer can do no dog or person any good if their hand/arm has been permanently damaged by a bite.

    And one more thought - isn't there a big difference using positive reinforcement to train a dog to do wanted behavior and a strong correction to instill respectful behavior in a herd/pack animal?
    you totally lost me with this. There is a correlation to using +R to train an incompatible response, but punishment by definition reduces behavior.



  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    you totally lost me with this. There is a correlation to using +R to train an incompatible response, but punishment by definition reduces behavior.
    I was thinking of two different scenarios.

    I want my dog to "shake". In this case I wouldn't punish the dog for not shaking (lifting his leg). I would praise, give rewards, etc when ever the dog started to lift his leg in the shaking motion so that he learns that's what's wanted. To little ol' amateur me it's amazing how fast dogs learn stuff like this.

    Scenario 2 - dog growls at me for moving his toy off the couch. Dog gets immediately growled at scolded/chewed out/moved out of his local, what ever for daring to growl at me. And you are correct, I do not and will not tolerate a dog growling at me. If that's the dogs temperament, he will not be living in my house. Having raised dogs from puppies, this has never been an issue yet, by the way. they learn their place - and it's below even the littlest of humans. Again, period.

    And I think saying you can't do what a dog does to another dog a bit obtuse, no? Clearly you can make your opinion of the dog's behavior well known to the dog... in a way the dog understands.


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  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by millerra View Post
    I was thinking of two different scenarios.

    I want my dog to "shake". In this case I wouldn't punish the dog for not shaking (lifting his leg). I would praise, give rewards, etc when ever the dog started to lift his leg in the shaking motion so that he learns that's what's wanted. To little ol' amateur me it's amazing how fast dogs learn stuff like this.

    Scenario 2 - dog growls at me for moving his toy off the couch. Dog gets immediately growled at scolded/chewed out/moved out of his local, what ever for daring to growl at me.
    this assumes your timing is impeccable and that the dog will know what s/he is being scolded/chewedout/moved out of his local for.

    Here is a real life example. I put in an underground fence. I had 5 dogs. 4 of the dogs figured it out correctly, but dog #5, got shocked 2x. By the second time, when I brought her collar and lead out, she ran away, as HER association was that the lead with her flat buckle collar was what did it.

    Because you don't always know what the association is, it is much easier to put a positive behavior in place that is incompatible with the aggression instead of punishing the aggressive behavior.

    And you are correct, I do not and will not tolerate a dog growling at me. If that's the dogs temperament, he will not be living in my house.
    to each his own. I don't consider growling to be anything other than communication. I live with 6 dogs, none of which have aggressed toward me but most of whom have growled for various reasons.

    And I think saying you can't do what a dog does to another dog a bit obtuse, no? Clearly you can make your opinion of the dog's behavior well known to the dog... in a way the dog understands.
    ummmm, we are talking apples and oranges I think. I can make what I want clear to the dog without behaving like a dog. I'm not about to bite a dog, or snarl like a dog or sniff a butt like a dog does. Of course it's very clear to me that I'm not a dog so.....



  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    this assumes your timing is impeccable and that the dog will know what s/he is being scolded/chewedout/moved out of his local for.

    Here is a real life example. I put in an underground fence. I had 5 dogs. 4 of the dogs figured it out correctly, but dog #5, got shocked 2x. By the second time, when I brought her collar and lead out, she ran away, as HER association was that the lead with her flat buckle collar was what did it.

    Because you don't always know what the association is, it is much easier to put a positive behavior in place that is incompatible with the aggression instead of punishing the aggressive behavior.



    to each his own. I don't consider growling to be anything other than communication. I live with 6 dogs, none of which have aggressed toward me but most of whom have growled for various reasons.



    ummmm, we are talking apples and oranges I think. I can make what I want clear to the dog without behaving like a dog. I'm not about to bite a dog, or snarl like a dog or sniff a butt like a dog does. Of course it's very clear to me that I'm not a dog so.....
    This!

    Great observations! Thanks for posting this. I get weary!



  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by millerra View Post
    I was thinking of two different scenarios.


    Scenario 2 - dog growls at me for moving his toy off the couch. Dog gets immediately growled at scolded/chewed out/moved out of his local, what ever for daring to growl at me. And you are correct, I do not and will not tolerate a dog growling at me. If that's the dogs temperament, he will not be living in my house. Having raised dogs from puppies, this has never been an issue yet, by the way. they learn their place - and it's below even the littlest of humans. Again, period.
    This is how my household runs--spank! spank! LOL! Actually, I just use my voice for correction. But I strongly feel you must begin at puppyhood and cannot change the rules. Having a balanced animal means being a balanced leader.
    I LOVE my Chickens!



  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    text in red mine.



    wait! That was a sweeping generalization! Oh noes!



    of course you did. and that fixed it byGawd!



    I had a client once, who had a rescued dog. Had you used this on him, you would have been missing a nose and perhaps all or most of the skin on your face. He was a very self confident dog who had learned how to use his mouth and wasn't afraid of being punished. However, if you asked him politely, and you were clear about what you wanted, he would do it. This dog was faster, bigger than I was and I value my face far too much to have argued with him. He was actually quite a nice dog, once he understood what you wanted, but had you forced him...you would have lost.



    I'm glad for her. But I think she was lucky, it was a Boston and not this dog I knew.
    Touched a nerve, didn't I? Your whole post above is a sweeping generalization, and took one of my sentences out of context. Not all dogs are the same, and the dog you describe is unusual in his level of aggression. NOT the sort of dog I'm talking about, which is your average dog who has gotten a peg above himself.

    Sorry, Houndhill, that you are getting weary. But this whole ignore bad behavior/ just praise good behavior can make it a little hard for the animal to learn what you want and can be very impractical sometimes.

    Plus, few people punish a healthy dog just for growling. Usually that behavior is accompanied by some other behavior, like guarding something or not moving. By God if I need to pick up a dog's food bowl I don't want to have to worry about the dog's reaction. The dog just needs to know he will be fed. A very easy thing to teach a dog. Doesn't involve any punishment either.



  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    And here I was trying to be all politically correct by not using the dreaded "p" word. Really, they are not that different.

    Using punishment as a training tool isn't THAT difficult. It doesn't have to be used often either, but can be the best approach in certain situations.
    You can use punishment or reinforcement, either positively or negatively, to teach just about anything. Some just work better in certain circumstances and for certain animals. There really isn't anything "right" or "wrong" about any of them so long as you are not inhumane. "Punishment" doesn't have to mean pain or bullying.

    Reinforcement is any event that strengthens or increases the behavior it follows. There are two kinds of reinforcers:

    Positive reinforcers and Negative reinforcers

    In both of these cases of reinforcement, the behavior increases.

    Punishment, on the other hand, is the presentation of an adverse event or outcome that causes a decrease in the behavior it follows. There are two kinds of punishment:

    Positive punishment, and Negative punishment

    In both of these cases of punishment, the behavior decreases.


    (excepts from: http://psychology.about.com/od/behav...ntroopcond.htm)

    In general, however, I would not think that positive punishment would be the best application for growling only because it is the one that is probably most likely to get you bitten by a dog that is already angry. But it certainly would make a difference depending on WHY the dog is growling.


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  16. #216
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    Remember that the Boston terrier described earlier didn't just growl, but also tried to bite (snapped at the babysitter).

    Really, that dog has no right to be angry. It was just being disrespectful.

    The babysitter dealt with the dog in a direct way that was humane. The dog learned his lesson.


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  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    Remember that the Boston terrier described earlier didn't just growl, but also tried to bite (snapped at the babysitter).

    Really, that dog has no right to be angry. It was just being disrespectful.

    The babysitter dealt with the dog in a direct way that was humane. The dog learned his lesson.
    Meh....it's not really a situation of training either way - reinforcement or punishment. It's just one incident.

    Why was the dog growling and snapping? Who knows. Could have been in pain, could have been resource guarding, might have been something else.

    The person who spanked the dog might have "trained" it not to growl/snap at him/her, or just frightened the dog enough that it kept its distance.

    Reinforcement or punishment as training aid need to be used more than once, with some sort of command and a specific goal in mind. Not saying I wouldn't have considered giving the dog a swat or a swift kick if it tried to bite me, but I wouldn't assume my single action actually trained the dog in any way, for good or for bad.

    It could just have easily "trained" the dog to growl at the babysitter every time he/she came to the house; but if so, we probably wouldn't look back on it as an effective training session.

    Incidentally, I had this same situation as a babysitter and ended up just leaving the dog where it was, but telling the owners when they came home (new dog from the shelter). They ended up rehoming the dog.



  18. #218
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    An animal certainly can learn a lesson from a one time incident.

    We can imagine all sorts of scenarios as to why the dog growled and snapped, but I prefer to go with the one that the babysitter described, that the dog didn't want to give up its space or move, since that's what she wrote and it makes sense.



  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by millerra View Post
    I was thinking of two different scenarios.

    I want my dog to "shake". In this case I wouldn't punish the dog for not shaking (lifting his leg). I would praise, give rewards, etc when ever the dog started to lift his leg in the shaking motion so that he learns that's what's wanted. To little ol' amateur me it's amazing how fast dogs learn stuff like this.

    Scenario 2 - dog growls at me for moving his toy off the couch. Dog gets immediately growled at scolded/chewed out/moved out of his local, what ever for daring to growl at me. And you are correct, I do not and will not tolerate a dog growling at me. If that's the dogs temperament, he will not be living in my house. Having raised dogs from puppies, this has never been an issue yet, by the way. they learn their place - and it's below even the littlest of humans. Again, period.

    And I think saying you can't do what a dog does to another dog a bit obtuse, no? Clearly you can make your opinion of the dog's behavior well known to the dog... in a way the dog understands.
    I think a dog can understand what you're saying but some humans can't. lol



  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    Touched a nerve, didn't I?
    no, I was just being mean and making fun of you.

    Your whole post above is a sweeping generalization, and took one of my sentences out of context.
    GAB, you were the one who dissed sweeping generalizations before making one....not me. I make generalizations all the time.



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