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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct. 23, 2000
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    Cincinnati, OH USA
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    1,021

    Default Isn't there some way somebody could create carfax for horses?

    In this world of technology there has got to be a way. You probably couldn't capture the past, but you could start with present and add the future. Horses that were voluntarily enrolled would be more saleable and command a higher price.

    Start with a microchip or something and then capture:
    - changes in ownership
    - show records
    - surgeries/major medical issues

    OK you wiz kids and entrepreneurs - make it happen!

    I am sure someone would find a way to cheat, you can probably cheat carfax too, but it would be better than what buyers are faced with now.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct. 28, 2013
    Location
    Annapolis, MD
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    12

    Default

    Hey, I was googling this very idea and found your post. As someone who’s in the (medium-term) market, I think it’s a good idea and even more amazing that *no one* ever posted a response! Did you ever look into this? If so, what did you find out?



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun. 17, 2001
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    down the road from bar.ka
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    Default

    Who would maintain the database? How would that be funded?

    You would have to get the information on each horse almost from birth and have a way to update it with vet records otherwise it would be meaningless. I mean, I buy a 10 year old, microchip it and sign up but know nothing about serious illnesses or ownership irregularities before I obtained it. Or, if it is chipped and recorded? I may not want to provide any further information.

    Youd have to make it mandatory from birth with required transfers and updates, like a car, to mean anything.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan. 6, 2014
    Location
    Central Florida
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    17

    Default

    For the record, I would pay for access to such a thing. I'm in the market after just getting burned on a lease, and this would have saved some serious $$$ in horse/training and in medical bills!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun. 17, 2001
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    down the road from bar.ka
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blueribbons View Post
    For the record, I would pay for access to such a thing. I'm in the market after just getting burned on a lease, and this would have saved some serious $$$ in horse/training and in medical bills!
    But unless it was mandatory for all owners to participate and overseen by a federal level government agency? It simply would not be available to all buyers. Even those who would voluntarily enroll may not have correct info on horses they bought as opposed to raised from foaling.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 1999
    Location
    Shangri-LA
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    Default

    Haaa, let me see the horsefax! Actually it would be nice, maybe it's something breed registries could keep up with somehow.
    "My treasures do not chink or gleam, they glitter in the sun and neigh at night."
    ~Gypsy saying



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep. 26, 2010
    Posts
    5,412

    Default

    It is a nice idea to help reduce fraud, but I think it would be difficult to implement. Not from a technical perspective but more from the support required in the industry to make it happen.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun. 16, 2001
    Location
    Los Angeles, California
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    3,521

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    Haaa, let me see the horsefax! Actually it would be nice, maybe it's something breed registries could keep up with somehow.
    I would call it Shadowfax myself. Those who won't enroll would be considered shady horsetraders.
    Save Schrodinger's Cat!!!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2007
    Posts
    9,677

    Default

    No, not really

    CARFAX works because multiple sources feed it reliable data. These sources include, but are not limited to, insurance companies, state DMVs, auto repair centers, DOT, etc. It's in the best interests of many information providers to do so. This means a steady stream of reliable data.

    There is no such stream of data available for horses. They are not licensed, there is no need to insure them, vets can't provide information without owner consent, etc. There is just no way to build a reliable data base under current law and custom.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    4 members found this post helpful.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb. 28, 2006
    Location
    The rocky part of KY
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    No, not really

    CARFAX works because multiple sources feed it reliable data. These sources include, but are not limited to, insurance companies, state DMVs, auto repair centers, DOT, etc. It's in the best interests of many information providers to do so. This means a steady stream of reliable data.

    There is no such stream of data available for horses. They are not licensed, there is no need to insure them, vets can't provide information without owner consent, etc. There is just no way to build a reliable data base under current law and custom.

    G.
    And, each vehicle marketed is uniquely numbered and that number is cross referenced to another unique number issued by the state in the form of a license plate. Closest thing for horses is the JC tattoo and that goes by the wayside once they quit racing.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
    Incredible Invisible



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov. 24, 2002
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    Northern KY
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    Default

    Just so you know, CARFAX is being sued because, it proclaimed to know everything about all cars. Guess what? It doesn't. If I back my car into a light pole and take it to the local body shop and pay for the repair myself, that damage, no matter how severe, is not going to show up. If you watch their commercials now, they say "no one can tell you everything, but it's a good place to start". And it is, shows title transfers, insurance claims, dealer warranty stuff, odometer discrepancies, etc. So it can help you, but is isn't the thing I'd rely on. My husband is a car dealer. The only people we know that have a worse reputation, are people who sell horses. And lawyers. The system is only as good as the people putting the information in. And that's what's been wrong in the horse business for years, no paper trail, too many fingers in the pie, too many commissions. I hate even thinking about buying another horse.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 6, 2014
    Location
    Central Florida
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    Default

    Perhaps we are looking at the wrong end of things... Maybe we need an "Angie's List" for trainers/sellers? That way the trainer's and/or seller's reputation would be easier to track even if you/your trainer didn't have previous experience with them? Of course, that doesn't promise good results, but it might at least help keep people accountable?

    ETA: I just realized that I described something really similar to Rate My Horse Pro... Never mind me
    Last edited by blueribbons; Nov. 30, 2014 at 09:54 PM.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2004
    Location
    South Park
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    Default

    Europe has passports for horses.

    https://www.gov.uk/horse-passport/overview
    "All horses, ponies, donkeys and related animals (including zoo species like zebras) must have a horse passport.

    The passport is a small booklet that identifies your animal by its height and species.

    It also states whether your animal can be used for food at the end of its life. You can declare that your animal isn’t intended for human consumption yourself by filling in the appropriate section of the passport. This can’t be changed later.

    If you don’t make the declaration in the passport, it’s assumed the animal is intended for human consumption at the end of its life.

    All horse passports issued since 1 July 2009 must contain a microchip number.

    A passport is needed for each animal and lasts the animal’s lifetime.

    It must be with the animal at all times, eg if you keep your animal in a livery stable the passport must be kept at the stable.

    You need to show it:

    on demand from a local authority enforcement officer, like a Trading Standards inspector
    when you sell or give the animal to someone else
    when a vet examines or treats your animal
    You could get a fine of up to £5000 if you can’t show a valid horse passport for an animal in your care.

    Contact your local Trading Standards office if you suspect someone is keeping an animal without a passport."
    A friend told me I was delusional. I almost fell off my unicorn.


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  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov. 13, 2002
    Location
    PA, where the State motto is: "If it makes sense, we don't do it!".
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    11,416

    Default

    You'd have to start with the horse's DNA, as people are forever changing horse's names. After that I think all bets are off!

    With a system like you're proposing no one could play any games and the whole horse industry would collapse....
    "Marriage is like a deck of cards--it starts with two hearts and a diamond and after a while you wish you had a club and a spade." ~seen on an anniversary card~



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2009
    Location
    Four Corners
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    978

    Default

    While I love the idea, I suspect it wouldn't go over well. Remember the National Animal ID act thing a couple of years ago?



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug. 17, 2004
    Location
    Rixeyville, VA
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    6,773

    Default

    Fjords are DNA tested at birth as part of the registration process. Many of them are microchipped (required in Canada, required for a US evaluation). Even so, there are people who don't register their horses and don't pay to transfer papers.
    Where Norwegian Fjords Rule
    http://www.ironwood-farm.com



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug. 20, 2012
    Location
    Rutland, England, by way of Hawaii
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    220

    Default

    BEARCAT beat me to it. Yes, ALL horses, ponies, donkeys, mules, zebras have to have a passport. If I take one of my horses or donks to the vet, about 7 miles away, I must carry the animal's passport there and back. Every one of the above animals must be microchipped, as well. When the vet comes out to the farm, for annual vaccinations, I must have their passports available for the vet to fill in the product used, the date, and the vet's signature. My horses are not for human consumption, but even if they were, certain medications, and the date of their administration and the withdrawal time, could preclude the horses' fitness as human food. There is also a section for vaccinations other than equine influenza, laboratory health tests, inspection and endorsement, health, and medication record.

    The passport also includes a certificate of identification, which consists of two outlines of a horse's right and left sides, and its face and lower neck. All white markings are identified in red ink and all whorls in black. A full description of the horse's markings must be filled out below, including the microchip number, the gender, birth date, stud book number, and the veterinary surgeon's name, address and signature. In the event the horse is not purebred or is not registered with any breed society, the passport is equally valid and binding.

    The big problem is not with law-abiding horse owners, but with rogue dealers, sellers and "travellers," who won't be bothered with passports. Abattoirs are not supposed to accept horses without passports. Passport Issuing Organizations (PIOs) are permitted to process a passport for any horse. As an example, my late, unregistered Clydesdale was passported by the Donkey Breed Society. It cost only £10 with them ten years ago. Because of the certificate of identification, it was clear my boy wasn't a donkey!



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr. 18, 2010
    Posts
    2,128

    Default

    Cars have a PIN number from manufacturer so very easy to trace repair and accident records as the PIN # is entered each time. The records are computer entry so easy to produce an inexpensive Car Fax report.

    Not so much for horses as we know. America is the land of "freedom"...free to act like an A**, breed irresponsibly, lie about an animal etc. Europe has a better system and we need something like that here.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    May. 26, 2007
    Posts
    158

    Default

    The closest thing we can really do is ask the seller to give you access to the vet records. It's obviously no guarantee of future soundness or suitability for the job though. (How would you go about tracking behaviour issues? Check the box for "rearing problem"? Who's accountable for that?)

    Even then, it really depends on the caliber of horse (and seller) that you're dealing with. If I was a shady dealer trying to cover up a lameness, I wouldn't call the vet. I'd pop him some bute and price low enough that people won't bother with a PPE. Or if I was a super involved owner, I could produce records of the weekly chiro & massage & all the organic supplements that I insist horsey must have, throwing off his "horsefax" in the other direction.

    It's just way more difficult, way more multi-faceted than plugging in oil changes and some transmission fluid.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2010
    Posts
    2,944

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndyrgal View Post
    Just so you know, CARFAX is being sued because, it proclaimed to know everything about all cars. Guess what? It doesn't. If I back my car into a light pole and take it to the local body shop and pay for the repair myself, that damage, no matter how severe, is not going to show up. If you watch their commercials now, they say "no one can tell you everything, but it's a good place to start". And it is, shows title transfers, insurance claims, dealer warranty stuff, odometer discrepancies, etc. So it can help you, but is isn't the thing I'd rely on. My husband is a car dealer. The only people we know that have a worse reputation, are people who sell horses. And lawyers. The system is only as good as the people putting the information in. And that's what's been wrong in the horse business for years, no paper trail, too many fingers in the pie, too many commissions. I hate even thinking about buying another horse.
    I've seen several ads for (usually) low end body shops stating they will repair accident damage without reporting it.

    Rate My Horse Pro is great in theory. When I honestly evaluated two trainers I've used, the worse of the 2 came in with a better rating because his facility was a show place. I was pretty disappointed by how their program worked, without lying I couldn't make the numbers reflect reality. A clean bathroom doesn't make someone a better trainer than someone with an extra stall at the end the barn to do your business in, yet it does on RMHP.



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