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  1. #41
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    from the 'manhole video' tag, my bolding

    "Most of the people who like this page know instinctively that carriage horses in City traffic is wrong and abusive; that this trade is inherently inhumane. They need no convincing and want to see it end. "

    Since the 'trade' is inhumane, the owners must be 'abusers'. Abusive owners may legally have their horses seized from them without compensation or the right to sell or give away their horses as they choose, or to keep them, for that matter.
    Then there is the criminal abuse charge to be adjudicated and fines or time served.

    This goes FAR beyond merely pulling the licenses to operate the business; which could be passed off as a municipal decision, and countered via legal recourse/public pressure on the mayor, etc.

    Taking control of the drivers' property is a whole 'nother proposition and needs stomping out as the 'spark that could set the entire woods afire' that it is.


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  2. #42
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    Are there Amish communities in NY that use horses as transport? Would it be possible to get them on board - after all, if horses pulling carriages is deemed "inhumane", and those carriage-pulling horses may not be sold into any type of working home, that would impact those communities too once it spreads out of NYC.
    Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #43
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    Jun. 7, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    from the 'manhole video' tag, my bolding

    "Most of the people who like this page know instinctively that carriage horses in City traffic is wrong and abusive; that this trade is inherently inhumane. They need no convincing and want to see it end. "

    Since the 'trade' is inhumane, the owners must be 'abusers'. Abusive owners may legally have their horses seized from them without compensation or the right to sell or give away their horses as they choose, or to keep them, for that matter.
    Then there is the criminal abuse charge to be adjudicated and fines or time served.

    This goes FAR beyond merely pulling the licenses to operate the business; which could be passed off as a municipal decision, and countered via legal recourse/public pressure on the mayor, etc.

    Taking control of the drivers' property is a whole 'nother proposition and needs stomping out as the 'spark that could set the entire woods afire' that it is.
    Except there hasn't ever been actual abuse documented, so no animal cruelty charges. The worst you could say is differing opinions about how the horses should best be cared for. Because that doesn't happen in any other corner of the horse world...
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns



    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2003
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    NorthEast
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    24,497

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    The carriage people have bullied and carried on like mean girls in high school. They have, in my google research, posted that the Foret woman is "Lizzie Fecal." lot of poor class by the carriage people. I'm not on FB, so I don't know what they've done there
    http://horsebackmagazine.com/hb/archives/14758


    http://www.banhdc.org/archives/ch-fact-peta.html


    http://www.banhdc.org/ch-why.shtml

    All show up without being on FB. And if you google the names, the FB pages come up and aren't restricted to FB members. You can open them and look at them.

    Or you could have just looked at her replies under her name on here:
    Again - the gross inaccuracies - and stupidity because your comments show up on google alerts.

    You people must be so bored, you have nothing else to do but this. Pathetic and desperate.

    if you had any integrity, you would use your real name.
    you're kidding me - Right. That horse was panting because he was hot.
    Atlanta= hot. Is there something wrong with you to be in such a state of denial that you do not acknowledge that?

    Must all of you always defend horse abuse.

    Don't you people care about horses at all - or are they just a meal ticket. Never mind - I know the answer.

    love your red neck language BTW - very classy
    (horses are obligate nose breathers and the horses in Death Valley don't pant)

    Did you read my article "Horse of a Different Color" - where I say the NYC carriage horses are "entertainment horses?" In case you did not, I will include it in my newsletter this weekend. I am sure you can't wait to find it on line. It is time to take it out for an airing again. Thanks for reminding me that this is such an important issue. NYC carriage horses are not WORK HORSES. period.

    So, yes - I straightened them out on our FB page and explained it better - so please do not fool the people on this page to suit your own needs. They all agreed with me. Reread it. And BTW, many are horse people and know the head from the tail. They even know what a (gasp) chestnut is.

    The carriage horses in NYC do not WORK for 9 hours straight. They stand around most of the time doing nothing. This is documented
    Again - hiding behind your screen name. No one said the horses are exhausted. I said they stand around doing nothing for many of those 9 hours. Reading comprehension please. Many are so bored they fall asleep or paw the pavement our of frustration.

    You can lie all you want and try to impress the people on this page with your "cleverness."

    Being kept in heavy equipment for 9 hours just waiting around for a customer is not my idea of work.
    Elizabeth Forel - Presentation in part on Misconceptions of the public



    MISCONCEPTION: INDUSTRY: OUR HORSES GO ON VACATION FOR 3-4 MONTHS A YEAR
    Even if this is true – it is only for some of the horses – it still means that these same horses are working with no break for 8-9 months a year with no daily turnout, which is more important. In other words the horses are kept prisoners for 8-9 months a year with no turnout, no opportunity to express their equine nature. And most do not get any break at all.



    We are against horses being worked between the shafts of their carriages for 9 hours a day as horse slaves, with bits and blinders and tack - not even being able to scratch an itch. We advocate for the right of animals to live free according to their own terms – as indicated on Friends of Animals home page.


    AN INDUSTRY OUT OF CONTROL

    Horses suffer while carriage drivers defy the law and work their horses as temperature remains in the 90s By: Elizabeth Forel


    So do tell us who is lying and who is name calling?My name is easily found via google, as is the attorney firm I have.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


    5 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
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    Sep. 21, 2009
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    Queens, NY
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    BTW, the NY Daily News printed my letter to the editor today, which was in response to one of the typical anti-carriage letters they print every so often. They actually printed it without cutting even one word; this is the first time in 30 years of writing letters that has happened LOL

    Anyway, of course,someone got right onto the comments section with lies and attacks...par for the course, but it never ceases to amaze me, as every single thing I said I can back up with ironclad proof:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/-article-1.1462982
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts


    4 members found this post helpful.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandyVA View Post
    Except there hasn't ever been actual abuse documented, so no animal cruelty charges. The worst you could say is differing opinions about how the horses should best be cared for. Because that doesn't happen in any other corner of the horse world...
    My post was in response to supposed add-ons to the 'stopping the carriage business in NYC' perceived stance of the mayor by the vocal anti- crowd.

    Has this been written and proposed?
    Or is it only a fiction of exaggeration.

    IF the reason for business stoppage is 'abuse' and there is no agreement as to what abuse is, who will the expert be who decides?
    -There is already a licensed vet willing to give 'expert' opinion to the detriment of the carriage drivers.

    I do not understand why the carriage drivers cannot move against the activists on grounds of obstruction of business and disturbing the peace.
    Rights of free speech do not include trespass, screaming or overly loud, vile slander at the tops of their lungs.
    There is plenty of video evidence that could be brought to bear.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  7. #47
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    Sep. 21, 2009
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    Queens, NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    I do not understand why the carriage drivers cannot move against the activists on grounds of obstruction of business and disturbing the peace.
    Rights of free speech do not include trespass, screaming or overly loud, vile slander at the tops of their lungs.
    There is plenty of video evidence that could be brought to bear.
    We have been told by the NYPD, city councilmembers, and a high-powered law firm that we can do precisely zero about the weekly demonstrators. There is no trespass involved; they do not obstruct the entire sidewalk; they do not march; their numbers do not rise to the level where they need a permit; they use no amplifiers for sound.

    On the odd occasion when we have called the cops on a stray, lone lunatic screaming at us, yelling at our passengers etc, the response is pretty much a shrug - or worse, a "hey-you-kids-stop-fighting-or-I'll-summons-both-of-you" situation.

    Worse again is the desk cop who told one of our guys, who called the precinct directly repeatedly over a number of weeks on Sundays to complain about the harassment, "Hey, call here again and we will come and arrest YOU."

    Ever since OWS it has gotten even worse; the cops won't say 'boo' to anybody, for fear of being filmed, having false charges brought against them etc.
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #48
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    Okay, I have a few questions for the resident experts. Now, if the city/mayor arbitrarily decides to shut down an entire business on a whim with no concrete proof of wrongdoing, aren't the (carriage drivers) entitled to some compensation? Or can the city/mayor actually just arbitrarily do this just because? Doesn't this open up the city/mayor to a potentially huge lawsuit?

    About the horses. Since it is NOT against the law to either send your horse to an auction or sell him to slaughter (also distasteful but legal), just how can an outside group arbitrarily keep you from doing this? Now, if the outside group were to compensate the owners for the ownership of the horses, that might be different. The figure of 200 +/- horses comes up somewhere. Now, if each horse is worth, say $2000 (probably a low figure), we are talking about something in the neighborhood of $400,000 that has to be raised to "retire" these horses. Is the city or the other groups going to be willing to raise this amount of money strictly on the say-so of a small group of protesters?

    If there is a law limiting what happens to the horse in New York State, what happens when the horse crosses the state line--wouldn't this be harder to enforce? Wouldn't this be akin to somebody who sells/gives away a horse with a return clause--which pretty much is not worth the paper it's printed on.

    I'm assuming that since the carriage people are far from stupid that they already know the legal in's and out's. I would think that all of this seizing of property would be far easier said than done. I would imagine that a very smart lawyer plus the ACLU (taking away a group's livelihood) could have a field day with this whole problem, or at least halt it in its tracks indefinitely.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
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    Jan. 16, 2003
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    Tennessee
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    Here's the exact text of De Blasio's position on the carriage horses, taken directly from his mayoral campaign website.

    Replace Carriage Horses with Vintage Tourist-Friendly Vehicles in Parks

    Bill de Blasio will end the inhumane treatment of carriage horses and supports an immediate ban on abuse of carriage horses. We can provide a humane retirement of all New York City carriage horses to sanctuaries, and replace them with electric, vintage-replica tourist-friendly vehicles that provide jobs for current drivers.

    This is just one of many issues his website addresses, and it's almost at the bottom of the pile. Is there more info from his office on exactly how he would like to accomplish this, and a timeline? If the electric cars are not happening, would that cause a change or delay in his plans?
    It's 2014. Do you know where your old horse is?


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #50
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    Sep. 21, 2009
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    Queens, NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by betonbill View Post
    Okay, I have a few questions for the resident experts. Now, if the city/mayor arbitrarily decides to shut down an entire business on a whim with no concrete proof of wrongdoing, aren't the (carriage drivers) entitled to some compensation? Or can the city/mayor actually just arbitrarily do this just because? Doesn't this open up the city/mayor to a potentially huge lawsuit?

    About the horses. Since it is NOT against the law to either send your horse to an auction or sell him to slaughter (also distasteful but legal), just how can an outside group arbitrarily keep you from doing this? Now, if the outside group were to compensate the owners for the ownership of the horses, that might be different. The figure of 200 +/- horses comes up somewhere. Now, if each horse is worth, say $2000 (probably a low figure), we are talking about something in the neighborhood of $400,000 that has to be raised to "retire" these horses. Is the city or the other groups going to be willing to raise this amount of money strictly on the say-so of a small group of protesters?

    If there is a law limiting what happens to the horse in New York State, what happens when the horse crosses the state line--wouldn't this be harder to enforce? Wouldn't this be akin to somebody who sells/gives away a horse with a return clause--which pretty much is not worth the paper it's printed on.

    I'm assuming that since the carriage people are far from stupid that they already know the legal in's and out's. I would think that all of this seizing of property would be far easier said than done. I would imagine that a very smart lawyer plus the ACLU (taking away a group's livelihood) could have a field day with this whole problem, or at least halt it in its tracks indefinitely.
    Great post, Bill.

    We have the same exact questions --- and no answers. It's a wait and see right now.
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #51
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    Feb. 25, 2011
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    So California
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amwrider View Post
    The original quote came from Forel's own newsletter.I know that there has been a manhole or two that has blown from the steam pressure, but it is a seriously rare occurrence and I think lightning would stick a horse in NYC before a manhole would blow up under him.
    This particular issue sounds beyond stupid to me. Why not just move the horse forward five feet? Seriously? Simply remove this issue as a point of argument.

    I think carriages in New York seem charming. I do. But from some of the things I have read on this forum from the pro carriage side, I am starting to question that. Why are you fighting over something this dumb? Why would you not go out of your way to make such a simple change to improve public relations and improve your public image? It's a smaaaaaall thing to just inch the horse forward. Just a few feet. Really. And if you don't, and if that rare instance occurs and the horse is hit with an exploding manhole cover, then what? Was it worth it to not just... move... the horse... forward... a little... bit.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  12. #52
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    Jun. 7, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteyPie View Post
    This particular issue sounds beyond stupid to me. Why not just move the horse forward five feet? Seriously? Simply remove this issue as a point of argument.

    I think carriages in New York seem charming. I do. But from some of the things I have read on this forum from the pro carriage side, I am starting to question that. Why are you fighting over something this dumb? Why would you not go out of your way to make such a simple change to improve public relations and improve your public image? It's a smaaaaaall thing to just inch the horse forward. Just a few feet. Really. And if you don't, and if that rare instance occurs and the horse is hit with an exploding manhole cover, then what? Was it worth it to not just... move... the horse... forward... a little... bit.
    Then it'll be something else.

    A horse licked the water off the cover of a trash can and the howling about it went on for days.
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns



    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #53
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    Jul. 15, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandyVA View Post
    Then it'll be something else.

    A horse licked the water off the cover of a trash can and the howling about it went on for days.
    I missed that one, LOL. I see them complaining about horses that spill grain out of their buckets and eat it off the pavement, I see them claiming "harness rub" when it is simply winter coat shedding out, poor horsie is lame because he cocks a hind leg at rest, horsie is injured because he has cuts on the bottom of his hoof....

    OH! And if you give a horse a whole apple and he has a bit in his mouth and slobbers it all over the sidewalk, they take photos and claim it to be vomit from the horse.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


    5 members found this post helpful.

  14. #54
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    Oct. 18, 2000
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    22,427

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    Don't forget the "tumors". (chestnuts) Yes folks, the horses are forced to work with "tumors" on their legs.

    The stupid just goes on and on... with an ignorant bilious public lapping it up.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


    9 members found this post helpful.

  15. #55
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    Aug. 5, 2007
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    There are college texts and veterinary manuals on line that one could use as expert reference witness to add to whatever blogs/ FB, etc. the carriage industry has for public viewing and information.
    Point by point refuting every assertion of the anti-s.

    'Opinions' from within the industry will not be considered valid (you lie! etc.) which is why you simply link to the 3rd party material -and there is a ton of it.

    Their 'Emporer' is naked and yes, you can let others see it via 3rd party disinterested material.

    If they are acting fools, it never hurts for you to let others, titled experts words, point that out and vindicate you.

    Doesn't hurt to offer to the Mayor that of course he/she had to come to the decision printed given the information the office had been receiving and you know they will be glad to increase the accurate information available to them on the issue...

    Don't say they are wrong, only that the information is inadequate. And you appreciate them considering the 3rd party facts in weighing their position and updating their stance.

    Promises based on false and incomplete information are often voided and overturned, and rightly so.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #56
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    Oct. 26, 2003
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    1,897

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    That's why Forel and company don't allow any dissenting opinions, also known as the truth, to appear on their pages. They can't have actual facts get in the way of their opinions. That's why she's not posting on COTH. With a few exceptions, no one who knows anything about horses is going to believe her BS. Of course, those of you who haven't been banned from her No Walk in the Park site on FB can try posting and see what kind of reaction you get. It's got to be a good post -- you only get one chance and you're deleted and banned.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  17. #57
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    Upstate NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    With a few exceptions, no one who knows anything about horses is going to believe her BS.
    That is the part that confuses me. I do not get why people who seem to actually have a clue about horses fall for her spewing.

    It would make far more sense to me if the anti group had good logical reasons for their stance instead of making up falsehoods and spewing them and deleting anything that rebuts them.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #58
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    Nov. 15, 2005
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    NY
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    6,241

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    Quote Originally Posted by betonbill View Post
    Okay, I have a few questions for the resident experts. Now, if the city/mayor arbitrarily decides to shut down an entire business on a whim with no concrete proof of wrongdoing, aren't the (carriage drivers) entitled to some compensation? Or can the city/mayor actually just arbitrarily do this just because? Doesn't this open up the city/mayor to a potentially huge lawsuit?

    About the horses. Since it is NOT against the law to either send your horse to an auction or sell him to slaughter (also distasteful but legal), just how can an outside group arbitrarily keep you from doing this? Now, if the outside group were to compensate the owners for the ownership of the horses, that might be different. The figure of 200 +/- horses comes up somewhere. Now, if each horse is worth, say $2000 (probably a low figure), we are talking about something in the neighborhood of $400,000 that has to be raised to "retire" these horses. Is the city or the other groups going to be willing to raise this amount of money strictly on the say-so of a small group of protesters?

    If there is a law limiting what happens to the horse in New York State, what happens when the horse crosses the state line--wouldn't this be harder to enforce? Wouldn't this be akin to somebody who sells/gives away a horse with a return clause--which pretty much is not worth the paper it's printed on.

    I'm assuming that since the carriage people are far from stupid that they already know the legal in's and out's. I would think that all of this seizing of property would be far easier said than done. I would imagine that a very smart lawyer plus the ACLU (taking away a group's livelihood) could have a field day with this whole problem, or at least halt it in its tracks indefinitely.
    What I bolded is basically what I was saying.

    IF [and that is a big if] this law is enacted, and thanks for the civics class lesson about what a law is, how would it be any more enforce-able than all the 'contracts' and other policies and laws that presently exist that we horse owners know are next to useless and never enforced?

    Law Enforcement is way too busy to be following former Carriage horses around to see where they end up and then look into how they got there and how many hands they passed through before getting there.
    Last edited by Angela Freda; Sep. 24, 2013 at 08:59 AM. Reason: spelling
    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/



  19. #59
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    And I still suspect that for a good amount of them "sanctuary" will be a syringe of pink liquid and a hole in the ground... the anti groups will hang on to a few that go to actual sanctuaries so they can continue to solicit fundraising for their care.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


    2 members found this post helpful.

  20. #60
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    Feb. 18, 2001
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    New York, NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Except that it's not steam. They are exploding. There's a big difference.

    I get that you don't think it's a big deal, but I sure wouldn't park my car over one.

    http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-manhole/?_r=0

    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/05/...r-in-brooklyn/
    Yes, it's true. One exploded at the end of my block a couple of winters ago. Luckily it was a quiet night, but had any people or animals been nearby, it wouldn't have been pretty: http://gothamist.com/2011/01/03/vide...ing_everyw.php

    This is why you sometimes see the covers removed with big orange and white pipes releasing the steam from the top of them. It is not a rare occurrence, particularly in the winter.



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