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  1. #1
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    Default Stalkers, Jail Time for selling your horse and more ....yes, about Carriage Horses

    Just the latest in the ongoing struggle with the Carriage Horse industry in NYC. This was posted by "she who shall not be named on Facebook" but we can freely name her here, Elizabeth Forel from the Coalition To Ban Horse Drawn Carriages:

    deBlasio has also told me in a personal conversation and others in a conference call that he will shut the horse carriages down; that his thinking has evolved and he realizes that it must not depend on the success of the electric cars.

    These phantom electric cars are an untried, risky and expensive vanity project. They have been dangled in front of unsuspecting activists for years - by NY Class, Peta and the ASPCA - but a prototype has yet to be produced.

    We have investigated this thoroughly and know it is dangerous to get caught up in this sham because it probably will not happen, will delay things, and will hurt the horses in the long run.

    We cannot let that happen.

    Yet NY Class continues to tell their supporters "The drivers have been offered the option of driving electric Horseless Carriages so they can keep their jobs. The carriage horses will be retired to loving sanctuaries and rescues. We have a long list of adopters ready and willing to take them." I say - what cars!? - and how will they take the horses if they do not own them?

    The horses are privately owned. There is nothing in the existing law or proposed legislation that addresses taking the horses from the owners and finding homes for them. It has always been up to them. Even if they cooperate, they have every right to keep their horses or find a good home within the guidelines of the proposed bill. Yet once again, NY Class says "the carriage horses will be retired to loving sanctuaries and rescues. We have a long list of adopters ready and willing to take them."

    The carriage trade likes to complain that their horses will be seized. Not true. Both NY Class and the carriage drivers are making it up as they go along to appeal to their supporters.

    We would like to see an amendment to the existing bill Intro 92 that would provide jail time or hefty fines to owners if they do not abide by the law and find the right homes for their horses. It must be illegal to bring/sell the horses to dealers or directly to New Holland.

    The drivers will not have much clout after the Bloomberg administration is finished. But they are digging in their heels and have threatened civil disobedience and law suits.

    The driver/owners believe that just because they want the "industry" to continue that it should. It does not matter to them that they are in a time warp and the majority of New Yorkers want to see this industry hit the dustbins. Like selfish entitled children - prima donnas - they want what they want. Period. Instead of seeing the hand writing on the wall, where it has been for years and intelligently planning to move on to another career, they foolishly dug in their heels instead --
    acting like bullies, viciously attacking us - calling us ageist, homophobic and racist remarks; setting activists up to get arrested by making false accusations; trying to get people fired from their jobs;
    reporting the organizations for anything they could make up - and always - the underlying theme is to call us liars; to defend everything they do - whether it is not reporting all they earn in their cash only business to parking a carriage horse over a steaming manhole cover. Their MO has always been that we are liars and do not know what we are talking about. This is an argument that is simply not viable. These are dangerous people and will not go quietly or gracefully.

    I acknowledge that the owners are terrified of Steve Nislick/NY Class because he has money to burn and they see him as very powerful. Clout goes a long way. But it is no substitute for substance. NY Class recently posted this comment on their Facebook page "Hey carriage drivers - Nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah nah, hey hey hey, goodbye!" This is childish, inappropriate and a dangerous, arrogant attitude -- but we have previously seen these kinds of low class comments coming from NY Class - whether on their Facebook page or on posters. They need to grow up and be honest. Money and free t-shirts only go so far. Substance and honesty is required now that the piper will soon need to be paid.

    So for now - this is the situation. We know this will be a complicated transition. We are ready to address it in a mature, knowledgeable and competent way. The question is - is Mr. deBlasio - or will he feel obligated to NY Class and Mr. Nislick for spending a fortune to defeat Christine Quinn?

    We hope not.

    Bottom line is please think critically. Stay informed. Don't believe everything you hear, and always question. This will not be a walk in the park. DeBlasio promised us a ban - without cars. Let's see if he keeps that promise.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


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  2. #2
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    Firstly, how can you put someone in jail or fine them for selling their own horse just because you do not like who they sold the horse to? What is the legal definition of "horse dealer" heck, if someone sends a horses to me on consignment that could include me as a "dealer."

    Secondly, I love how they call carriage people and their supporters "bullies" and resort to threatening behavior. I personally have had anti-carriage people stalk me, contact my customers via Facebook to tell them that they should not support a business that supports animal cruelty..... I know someone that posts here had an anti leave a fake bomb in front of her house, I know someone that posts here had her employer contacted by anti carriage people and tried to get her fired, I know one poster here who had her young teen daughter and daughter's friends contacted through Facebook and harassed. Carriage supporters are the bullies? Really now?

    Thirdly, I think Forel's comment about asking questions and not believing everything you hear as laughable because if you question or correct her on her various Facebook pages she bans you, if you dare to use her name on Facebook (even if it is simply to reference a quote by her) she will have Facebook ban you for a punishment period of time.

    Just venting, I find this very frustrating and I really, really feel badly for those in the carriage business. This is their trade, their life, their passion. It is how they feed their families, it is how they feed their horses. Yet, let a carriage driver or a friend of the trade try to defend them.....
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


    9 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
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    What's wrong with parking your horse over a steaming manhole?


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  4. #4
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    Apparently the anti group thinks they will "explode".....seriously, they do.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


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  5. #5
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    While that is pretty silly, manholes do explode from time to time. It's rare but not unheard of. Of course, the antis are just grasping at things to be stupidly indignant about, not reality based at all.
    I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
    I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09



    7 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
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    Default

    Nice read. Would be interested knowing what DeBlasio's and Nislick's reaction to that would be as well as the coneheads who head up NYCLASS.
    Most importantly, sure hope that poor woman E. Forel seeks mental health care.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
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    OP, where did the original post come from...the one that's attributed to E. Forel?

    As far as exploding manholes, well they do. Here's one from 6/15/13, midtown NY City.

    http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...ork&id=9140729

    http://consumerist.com/2010/02/11/ne...de-with-video/
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
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    The original quote came from Forel's own newsletter.I know that there has been a manhole or two that has blown from the steam pressure, but it is a seriously rare occurrence and I think lightning would stick a horse in NYC before a manhole would blow up under him.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


    8 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
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    Default

    It came from their latest email list.

    http://archive.constantcontact.com/f...005055750.html

    Read and enjoy. (And note that we can all buy fancy t-shirts, the proceeds of which will NOT GO TO HELPING ANY HORSE, EVER. But they might buy some new glossy signs.)


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  10. #10
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    Well here's an interesting piece. The union that represents the carriage drivers has endorsed DeBlasio.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/elec...#ixzz2fSWUuLfM
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  11. #11
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    amwrider, the explosions are not caused by 'steam pressure'. Here is a concise explanation:

    In most cases, these are the events that lead to an explosion:

    1. Underground cables become frayed from aging, corrosive chemicals, overload or rats biting them. These cables carry on the order of 13,000 volts of electricity.
    2. These electrical wires heat up the paper, lead and rubber insulation.
    3. The insulation smolders and catches on fire, releasing gases.
    4. The pressure from the gas builds up inside the manhole.
    5. The electrical wires arc like a bolt of lightning and ignite the gases, causing a powerful explosion.


    http://science.howstuffworks.com/env...g-manhole1.htm

    According to one article, there is an average of 38 manhole cover explosions per year in DC:

    http://news.sciencemag.org/environme...oles-explained

    There are also some caused by methane gas leaks / buildup in underground conduits.

    I am not trying to argue against your criticism of the folks who want to drive out NYC carriages. I am just encouraging you to be as reality-based as possible. I don't think I would park anything over a manhole cover after reading these articles. The explosions recorded recently in DC, Baltimore, and NYC have shot the 100lb manhole as high as 50 feet in the air. YIKES.
    I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
    I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09



    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lori B View Post
    amwrider, the explosions are not caused by 'steam pressure'. Here is a concise explanation:

    In most cases, these are the events that lead to an explosion:

    1. Underground cables become frayed from aging, corrosive chemicals, overload or rats biting them. These cables carry on the order of 13,000 volts of electricity.
    2. These electrical wires heat up the paper, lead and rubber insulation.
    3. The insulation smolders and catches on fire, releasing gases.
    4. The pressure from the gas builds up inside the manhole.
    5. The electrical wires arc like a bolt of lightning and ignite the gases, causing a powerful explosion.


    http://science.howstuffworks.com/env...g-manhole1.htm

    According to one article, there is an average of 38 manhole cover explosions per year in DC:

    http://news.sciencemag.org/environme...oles-explained

    There are also some caused by methane gas leaks / buildup in underground conduits.

    I am not trying to argue against your criticism of the folks who want to drive out NYC carriages. I am just encouraging you to be as reality-based as possible. I don't think I would park anything over a manhole cover after reading these articles. The explosions recorded recently in DC, Baltimore, and NYC have shot the 100lb manhole as high as 50 feet in the air. YIKES.
    Thank you LoriB! Glad I could get more info, trying to look something else up now and computer is being wonky. I do think though that there are measures taken on some of the manhole covers to prevent this, hopefully someone can chime in on this.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amwrider View Post
    The original quote came from Forel's own newsletter.I know that there has been a manhole or two that has blown from the steam pressure, but it is a seriously rare occurrence and I think lightning would stick a horse in NYC before a manhole would blow up under him.
    I was curious because I'd never heard of it before, but it sounds like it's a bit more frequent than lightning. As in, it's a problem.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paragon View Post
    It came from their latest email list.

    http://archive.constantcontact.com/f...005055750.html

    Read and enjoy. (And note that we can all buy fancy t-shirts, the proceeds of which will NOT GO TO HELPING ANY HORSE, EVER. But they might buy some new glossy signs.)
    There's a sucker born every minute.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    OP, where did the original post come from...the one that's attributed to E. Forel?

    As far as exploding manholes, well they do. Here's one from 6/15/13, midtown NY City.

    http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...ork&id=9140729

    http://consumerist.com/2010/02/11/ne...de-with-video/
    Yeah, and steam can also rise from anything that is warmer when cold air sets in. I know someone who had the fire department called on her because her horses were warm in their blankets and were "steaming" on a cold and bright winter morning. Some idiot driver called the fire department and reported that there were horses in a field that were on fire.


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  16. #16
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    I hope this thread doesn't go too far afield with risk assessment and horse health. I'm sure we can all name half a dozen things that most horsepeople do - or have done, regularly - that are not optimal for the health and livelihood of the horse. The trivialities of parking over a manhole cover should be a non-issue in such a diverse realm as the horse world, where we all train, ride, stable, and pasture in minutely different ways.


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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I was curious because I'd never heard of it before, but it sounds like it's a bit more frequent than lightning. As in, it's a problem.
    RIP poor Boomer, McSteamy, Pop and all of the other horses killed by those DAMN exploding manholes.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


    5 members found this post helpful.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paragon View Post
    I hope this thread doesn't go too far afield with risk assessment and horse health. I'm sure we can all name half a dozen things that most horsepeople do - or have done, regularly - that are not optimal for the health and livelihood of the horse. The trivialities of parking over a manhole cover should be a non-issue in such a diverse realm as the horse world, where we all train, ride, stable, and pasture in minutely different ways.
    Thank you Paragon.

    We have gone over at length the specific manhole cover in question, aka "The Manhole Cover of Doom"

    It happens to be right in the middle of one of our carriage lines, and it is a non-issue.

    The city assures us that it is fine.

    Many thousands of people stand on, walk over, and park their cars over manholes everyday which have NOT been specifically asked about, as we did ours.

    Moreover, the "steam" that comes up is not even vaguely warm; more just a benign vapor.

    This is a photo - the horses could care less: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RubyTuesday View Post
    Yeah, and steam can also rise from anything that is warmer when cold air sets in. I know someone who had the fire department called on her because her horses were warm in their blankets and were "steaming" on a cold and bright winter morning. Some idiot driver called the fire department and reported that there were horses in a field that were on fire.
    Probably the same idiot people that call and report that the horses are blindfolded in the summer too.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


    4 members found this post helpful.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amwrider View Post
    RIP poor Boomer, McSteamy, Pop and all of the other horses killed by those DAMN exploding manholes.
    <hoooooooowl>
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts


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