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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    OP - what is known about the connection of NYCLASS and PETA ?

    I can't speak for any of the named riders, but I think it's easy to get sucked into lending support to "help the poor horses" campaigns. EVERYONE should really do their research about these organizations and especially if they give money, what is it actually used for.

    Even ASPCA works with HSUS to sponsor pretty aggressive animal rights legislation. Every time they ask me for money, I write a note back saying not until they get away from HSUS and sponsoring legislation.
    Ray - NYCLASS lists both PETA and the HSUS as "partner organizations." NYCLASS's board members (2 of 3) Steve Nislick and Wendy Neu, are huge PETA supporters. Nislick's storage company, Manhattan Mini Storage, gave PETA $125,000 in 2010 to pay for PETA's Lea Michele anti-carriage campaign. Wendy Neu, every year, gives in excess of $100,000 to PETA, and she is one of the top 10 or 15 donors to PETA, as far as we can tell from PETA's annual report (for all we know, she may be in the top 5 or even PETA's biggest donor).

    PETA's VP, Dan Mathews, works closely with NYCLASS to enlist celebrities to make parroted statements against the NYC carriage horses. Most of the celebrities who have come out recently against the carriages do so in a PETA led campaign which urges PETA supporters (or the public) to support NYCLASS and NYCLASS's Intro 86A.

    The two organizations are CLOSELY intertwined. The ASPCA, which co-founded NYCLASS, has backed off significantly in their involvement with NYCLASS following a complaint to the NYS Attorney General about their lobbying role.

    Meanwhile, the HSUS is also tied in to NYCLASS. Wayne Pacelle of the HSUS personally congratulated NYCLASS's executive director, Allie Feldman, on NYCLASS's electoral victories (NYCLASS gave $225,000 to NYC Is Not For Sale, a SuperPAC primarily funded by Nislick and Neu and their subsidiary companies, to defeat Christine Quinn).

    Here's a hint to understand the RADICAL animal rights involvement of these three organizations (PETA, HSUS, and the ASPCA) in NYCLASS... Take Feld Entertainment's RICO complaint against these guys and replace "elephants" with "carriage horses" and there you go. Organized criminal enterprise to defame the industry and defraud the public, through wire and mail fraud, money laundering, (and election-rigging) etc.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  2. #22
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    I just hope that it doesn't mean that I have to rename my cats, Joe and Beezie...
    madeline
    * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis


    5 members found this post helpful.

  3. #23
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    I believe that those of us that don't see it first hand shouldn't have a sayin the situation because it's ignorance. I don't know anything about NY carriage horses. Never been there to see them in action or how they are treated. I believe if treated well there is nothing wrong with a nice carriage horse. Now I have seen some first hand that I think should be shut down. One I recall recently when a paint was out in Aug pulling a full size 8 person carriage (about a 15.2 paint) and as we strolled through town all day that horse was out 10 hours working that I saw. IMO that is to much ESP for such a small horse that is not breed to pull carriages. He looked broke down and beat but still did his job. Those I feel for, ones that are ran correctly are great but idk anything about NY except what I read on here so until I or anyone else further educates themselves I don't believe that really know what they are talking about.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedrafthorse View Post
    Ray - NYCLASS lists both PETA and the HSUS as "partner organizations." ..

    PETA's VP, Dan Mathews, works closely with NYCLASS to enlist celebrities to make parroted statements against the NYC carriage horses. Most of the celebrities who have come out recently against the carriages do so in a PETA led campaign which urges PETA supporters (or the public) to support NYCLASS and NYCLASS's Intro 86A.

    The two organizations are CLOSELY intertwined. The ASPCA, which co-founded NYCLASS, has backed off significantly in their involvement with NYCLASS following a complaint to the NYS Attorney General about their lobbying role.

    Meanwhile, the HSUS is also tied in to NYCLASS. Wayne Pacelle of the HSUS personally congratulated NYCLASS's executive director, Allie Feldman, on NYCLASS's electoral victories ....

    Here's a hint to understand the RADICAL animal rights involvement of these three organizations (PETA, HSUS, and the ASPCA) in NYCLASS... Take Feld Entertainment's RICO complaint against these guys and replace "elephants" with "carriage horses" and there you go. Organized criminal enterprise to defame the industry and defraud the public, through wire and mail fraud, money laundering, (and election-rigging) etc.
    OY. anyone who knows any of the named hunter/jumper riders should really encourage them to get out of this mess. PLEASE. PETA and HSUS are bad news!


    6 members found this post helpful.

  5. #25
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    Dec. 22, 2000
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    Again, most of the people on that list are very easy to find. If the OP or anyone else wants to ask about their involvement or try to convince them to step away, go right ahead.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #26
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    I suggest writing a letter to the print version of the Chronicle. or seeing if they would print a short opinion piece or better yet, send someone to do a real article. it would benefit the H/J community in the long run if this issue was aired and discussed.

    the MFHA and the fox-hunting community are all over this and would make a great ally http://www.mfha.org/


    5 members found this post helpful.

  7. #27
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    Nov. 8, 2011
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    I would like to hear some of these people's answers to the question of "why support this particular group?"

    I also think it's perfectly acceptable to list them here. First, it was a public list to start with. And second, we should not keep our head in the sand away from any opposition our sport receives. Instead, we should have educated discussions with educated (horse) people.

    If any of the people listed are out here on the Chronicle, please share your view. What is it about this organization that calls to you?


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rel6 View Post
    But I think OP's point is that clearly a lot of those people DO understand horses and so it surprises me to see some of those name on that list, but I am very sure they have much better things than reply to an email and justify their position to some anon on a board. That being said, I would be interested to hear such a justification as I have yet to hear a truly knowledgeable horse person speak against the carriage horses and obviously some of those people on the list are amongst the most knowledgeable on our sport.

    Maybe we aren't an important enough venue, but I think someone with a reputation for expertise taking a position on an issue on a topic in public can and should be called upon to explain that. Isn't that what they signed up for in attaching their name to the petition?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    8 members found this post helpful.

  9. #29
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    FWIW, I have reached out to a few people on the list and have not heard anything back. They don't know me, they're busy, and frankly I suspect some of them don't know what I'm talking about, because they don't know they are on the list. If that's the case, they should contact NYCLASS and tell them to take their names off.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
    I suggest writing a letter to the print version of the Chronicle. or seeing if they would print a short opinion piece or better yet, send someone to do a real article. it would benefit the H/J community in the long run if this issue was aired and discussed.

    the MFHA and the fox-hunting community are all over this and would make a great ally http://www.mfha.org/
    Awesome idea, thanx
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts


    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Maybe we aren't an important enough venue, but I think someone with a reputation for expertise taking a position on an issue on a topic in public can and should be called upon to explain that. Isn't that what they signed up for in attaching their name to the petition?
    Yes
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts


    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Maybe we aren't an important enough venue, but I think someone with a reputation for expertise taking a position on an issue on a topic in public can and should be called upon to explain that. Isn't that what they signed up for in attaching their name to the petition?
    Are you kidding? No one has to explain anything to anyone. That is absolutely NOT what they signed up for. You are welcome to ask them, of course, but they are not required to explain their position on every issue to some yahoo who gets their panties in a wad on a BB.

    Geesh!
    *****
    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    I just listened to Buck Brannaman's book, The Faraway Horses. He specifically addresses carriage horses and is so level headed about it. He says they have a great life, they get loved on my the public, are well taken care of, etc.

    It's too bad people with no understanding of horses are going to decide their fate.


    *I personally think any animal lover that supports PETA, HSUS, Farm Sanctuary, etc. is on the ignorant side of things.

    As a former NYCer...I have to say that Buck has definitely not seen the day to day and behind the scenes treatment of these horses. I have seen several extremely lame horses being excessively whipped carrying those big carriages up hard pavement streets. So many times in fact, that I ended up yelling at them after a while because I was so fed up.
    I have also witnessed these poor animals tied up to the outside of buildings (on the sidewalk or pavement) with no access to water or hay in 100+ degree weather.
    I am so glad that this issue is being taken more seriously and that there are big name equestrians behind the ban.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #34
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    Wow Susy I certainly hoped when you witnessed those things you reported them!?!

    As for the carriages weight they are fiberglass and only weight about 1000lbs and are outfitted with the ultra modern convenience of wheels. Horses can comfortably pull about 6 times their body weight on wheels and about 2 1/2 times their weight without wheels. So on the grand scheme of things not so "heavy"

    I also have to doubt the truthfulness of your statements since legally the horses cannot work if it is hotter then 89' or colder then 18' degrees out in NYC. As soon as the temperature goes over 89 the horses are sent back to the barns and it is obeyed by the drivers and enforced by the ASPCA and its officers.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #35
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    Answer: Because they care about the animals and don't fall for lies? Maybe they are intelligent enough to realize that the horses are on the streets behind buses in blazing hot weather. Maybe they realize that when 70 some horses disappear from the streets each year, there isn't a happy ending for most of those horses. And maybe they've read about Bobby Freedom.

    It's ironic that the much maligned Christy Sheidy (sp) and AC4H and a broker are the ones who pulled Bobby Freedom out of New Holland. Then the rescue got involved when no one wanted to "bail" him out. Otherwise he'd have gone back to New Holland with the other 3 or 4 drafts who were there with him, all with their hoof walls rasped. A business does not have to abuse and kill its horses by using them up and throwing them out. One carriage driver here rotates his horses through his farm in the country so they can get some grass. Plus our city is no where near as congested as NYC. (and yes, I've driven in NYC on Friday afternoons.)

    Which reminds me: I've never seen a pony on one of those carousel rides that looked happy and well cared for. From the time I rode them as a little kid (and told my parents that the ponies were sad and unhappy) to now when I see the local pony ride carousel ponies every day when I drive past their property, the ponies are not fed properly and live out in horrible conditions. . In Atlanta, the carriage horses looked bad. And of course our then city councilwoman Myrtle Davis caught one owner feeding his carriage horses moldy bread that he got free from stores.

    so maybe the riders and owners all realize that conditions have to change. The riders are smart and they care about the welfare of horses.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by susy999 View Post
    As a former NYCer...I have to say that Buck has definitely not seen the day to day and behind the scenes treatment of these horses. I have seen several extremely lame horses being excessively whipped carrying those big carriages up hard pavement streets. So many times in fact, that I ended up yelling at them after a while because I was so fed up.
    I have also witnessed these poor animals tied up to the outside of buildings (on the sidewalk or pavement) with no access to water or hay in 100+ degree weather.
    I am so glad that this issue is being taken more seriously and that there are big name equestrians behind the ban.
    But see? Now you will be attacked and the carriage people will be in full denial. Which means they don't want change because they do not care about the horses. Carriage people only care about the money.



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post

    It's ironic that the much maligned Christy Sheidy (sp) and AC4H and a broker are the ones who pulled Bobby Freedom out of New Holland. Then the rescue got involved when no one wanted to "bail" him out. Otherwise he'd have gone back to New Holland with the other 3 or 4 drafts who were there with him, all with their hoof walls rasped. A business does not have to abuse and kill its horses by using them up and throwing them out. One carriage driver here rotates his horses through his farm in the country so they can get some grass. Plus our city is no where near as congested as NYC. (and yes, I've driven in NYC on Friday afternoons.)

    Which reminds me: I've never seen a pony on one of those carousel rides that looked happy and well cared for. From the time I rode them as a little kid (and told my parents that the ponies were sad and unhappy) to now when I see the local pony ride carousel ponies every day when I drive past their property, the ponies are not fed properly and live out in horrible conditions. . In Atlanta, the carriage horses looked bad. And of course our then city councilwoman Myrtle Davis caught one owner feeding his carriage horses moldy bread that he got free from stores.

    so maybe the riders and owners all realize that conditions have to change. The riders are smart and they care about the welfare of horses.
    Your "stories" and that's what they are get richer and richer Cloudy.

    Bobby was pulled by Brian Moore BECAUSE he recognized value in him due to his hoof brand. Malign and bring up AC4H all you want its not about them, but the reason the horse was pulled was because of his past not in spite of it.


    Regurgitating Forels spoon feedings again are we ?

    Also what do pony rides and horses in Atlanta have to do with Carriage horses in NYC?
    Last edited by Lynnwood; Sep. 22, 2013 at 07:08 AM.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


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  18. #38
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    Feel free to read the read for yourself the holes and inaccuracies in Forel's story about Bobby
    http://www.equiculture.org/forel-response.aspx
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by susy999 View Post
    As a former NYCer...I have to say that Buck has definitely not seen the day to day and behind the scenes treatment of these horses.
    what do YOU know about the behind the scenes treatment?

    I have seen several extremely lame horses being excessively whipped carrying those big carriages up hard pavement streets. So many times in fact, that I ended up yelling at them after a while because I was so fed up.
    so you think that yelling at them will stop? did you obtain carriage license plates or hoof numbers and report? *IF* this happened then it should have been reported.

    As someone that has driven horses (but not commercial driving) I can and will tell you that carrying a whip is necessary and that whips are used basically because the driver does not have "legs" on the horse as a rider would. The whip is used to move the hidnquarters, to get the horse's attention to move forward etc. The horse does get tapped with a whip or with the lines to signal the haunches....but a whip is more effective. As a matter of fact in the carriage horse classes at our show if you do NOT carry a whip you are eliminated and if you put the whip in the holder (not held in your hand) you are eliminated. It is a MANDATORY piece of equipment for safety purposes.

    I have also witnessed these poor animals tied up to the outside of buildings (on the sidewalk or pavement) with no access to water or hay in 100+ degree weather.
    They are tied up outside usually when they are being washed or rinsed.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


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  20. #40
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    I know that yelling at them wouldn't stop them from running the lame horse into the ground, but I thought it might help to show that people on the street do notice their cruelty. I did report a couple - but the people on the other end of the line gave me the brush off statement "oh, ok, we'll have someone look into it...goodbye". I never did get a hoof number?? to report.
    Same goes for when I reported the horses tied up to the outside of buildings. I'm pretty sure they weren't just there to be washed off. I used to drive up the west side highway and see the horses tied up to a couple of buildings along there. When I would return a few hours later (I did this drive on a weekly basis), the same horses would be there tied up. Maybe I was wrong about it being exactly 100 degrees, but sometimes with the humidity and heat on the streets of the city, 85 or 90 degrees can feel much hotter. Especially to a horse that's just worked all day pulling people around and is now tied up in the blazing sun on a street corner.
    Maybe I shouldn't classify what I saw as "behind the scenes", but it was certainly the day to day practices that were open to somewhat public view. If that's what the public sees, then I'm not sure I'd want to see what happens behind the scenes anyway.
    That's just my personal experience and thoughts - you can take it or leave it.


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