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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaleenflynn View Post
    Thank you, Lady Eboshi.

    I worked with Emily Hager, a top reporter for the NY Times for 8 months, ostensibly on an article that would be a bottom-up exposé , blowing the lid once and for all off the whole RARA/Nislick/Forel scam being perpetrated on both the carriage industry and the public at large.

    The morning the article came out (she said it was against ethical concerns to let me see the final product before it was printed), we all woke up late, and I did not have time to turn on the computer before I rushed out the door to drive my daughter to school.

    After dropping her off, I stopped at the first gas station and ran inside to buy the paper.

    Minutes later, I stood next to the gas pump, crumpled NYT in hand, wailing, screaming, shouting, and crying into the phone, with Emily on the other end.

    The article was on the FRONT PAGE, and it was a travesty. NOT an exposé on our enemies as promised, but rather the headline, accompanying photo, and entire text was skewed in the direction of "is this the end of the carriage industry"?

    (Emily had used little to NONE of the mountain of evidence I gave her; the only new information she turned up was that the ASPCA had given NYCLASS $450,000 for their campaign against us rather than the $250,000 we knew about.)

    Emily was obviously prepared for what she knew was coming from me - she was sheepish and apologetic and very quiet. Her proffered reason for the amazing turn of the article? "I got a new editor 3/4 of the way through, and this is the way he wanted to go." Yes, you guessed it - the new editor had personal anti-carriage sentiments.

    Eight months of my life I emailed, PMed, and spoke on the phone with this reporter almost daily; my industry believed me when I told them something great was coming out of all of this, because I believed Emily. In the end it was just about a big, fat zero. Maybe Emily Hager has Google Alerts for her own name, and will turn up here to confirm my story.
    I am calling BS on her though.
    I know common decency is dead but not giving you the heads up is despicable.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigMama1 View Post
    Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
    GNU Terry Prachett



  2. #222
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    I have not read this entire thread.

    I just can not imagine what is going on in NYC. I should have some time soon to see if I can write some letters and find you some pro bono help. THis is insidious and EVERY horse owner should have your back because they are coming after the rest of us in due time. Anyone who does not see it coming is in denial.
    “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”
    ? Albert Einstein


    11 members found this post helpful.

  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    I am calling BS on her though.
    I know common decency is dead but not giving you the heads up is despicable.
    That's not how journalism works. Sorry. But it's true. If you don't want to run that risk, don't talk to a reporter.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    That's not how journalism works. Sorry. But it's true. If you don't want to run that risk, don't talk to a reporter.
    well, journalism hasn't worked for a long time now, why stick to this little part of the job description....
    Quote Originally Posted by BigMama1 View Post
    Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
    GNU Terry Prachett


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    well, journalism hasn't worked for a long time now, why stick to this little part of the job description....
    Because that's called PR.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  6. #226
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    It has been a very interesting and jam-packed day for the carriages, both in cyberspace and IRL.

    Good night from NYC: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...r&notif_t=like
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts



  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    Because that's called PR.
    No, we are talking journalism in this instance.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigMama1 View Post
    Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
    GNU Terry Prachett


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by TarheelJD View Post
    These threads always seem to become about individual personalities, etc. Totally irrelevant.

    For me, the issue is singular and simple. There are lying, crazy people trying to shut down a segment of the horse population (NYC carriage horses) based on blatent misrepresentations that the horses are abused. I have seen the NYC carraige horses and their facilities first hand - I know for a fact they are not abused in any way. As a horseperson, I feel I cannot sit by and do nothing while a group of horse owners is maligned and in danger of having their horses and livelihood taken away from them based on lies. That is all it comes down to for me.

    And whether or not you think these radicals will ever try to shut down your horse disicpline, or you believe that if they do come after you, there is no way they would succeed in shutting you down, the other horse people who they are targetting deserve our support.

    That being said - if I see unethical carriage operators, or carriage horses that are not treated properly, I would support shutting them down. Them personally, not an entire industry. The idiot in Utah who lied to the public about her horse dying should have her licensed yanked, IMO.
    Worth repeating.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


    4 members found this post helpful.

  9. #229
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    well I cannot get the link to work, but the website
    www.opposingviews.com has a good article from 2011 on the nyc carriage horse controversy.

    The argument that 'government" is coming to close down all horse operations everywhere is as bad as the argument that the NRA uses to scare people about having their guns confiscated. If animals are treated well and taken care of, pulled off the streets when it is so hot and congested, fed properly, given medical care, etc.,, there would be no problems with the use of horses in carriage work.

    However, double shifting, sending horses off to new holland, not giving them proper medical treatment, etc., shows that the regulations in NYC are not now working. nor being followed. Having the dead Juliet wearing Rusty's ID tags shows that something is rotten in the industry. Something has to change. And since the carriage owners are so rabid, then there is no room for compromise.

    And there's also the issue of money: When people are encouraged to "pay in cash," is that income being reported? Why ask for cash?

    Let the newspapers expose and report what they find out is wrong int he carriage industry. Otherwise, we'd never have known about all the dead horses and those sent off to auction.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    well I cannot get the link to work, but the website
    www.opposingviews.com has a good article from 2011 on the nyc carriage horse controversy.

    The argument that 'government" is coming to close down all horse operations everywhere is as bad as the argument that the NRA uses to scare people about having their guns confiscated. If animals are treated well and taken care of, pulled off the streets when it is so hot and congested, fed properly, given medical care, etc.,, there would be no problems with the use of horses in carriage work.

    However, double shifting, sending horses off to new holland, not giving them proper medical treatment, etc., shows that the regulations in NYC are not now working. nor being followed. Having the dead Juliet wearing Rusty's ID tags shows that something is rotten in the industry. Something has to change. And since the carriage owners are so rabid, then there is no room for compromise.

    And there's also the issue of money: When people are encouraged to "pay in cash," is that income being reported? Why ask for cash?

    Let the newspapers expose and report what they find out is wrong int he carriage industry. Otherwise, we'd never have known about all the dead horses and those sent off to auction.

    I can't believe anyone is still bringing those accusations as above and think they are germane to the situation we have here.

    That is like saying we need ban churches because a priest abused kids in one.
    See, if I look long enough, I will find where priests did wrong in a church, lets ban churches!

    Repeating for those that have such short memories, the NYC carriage horses are some of the most visible, regulated horses in the whole horse world.
    No one insist they are perfect, because sensible people know there is nothing perfect in this world.
    Anyone can see them working and in their stables, how much more transparency can anyone demand?
    When it comes to all we do with horses, I would say most rational people ought to realize by now that they are already doing the very best they can.

    The hounding and threatening of the carriage people in NYC by animal rights fanatics is what is obviously WRONG here, on several levels of decency.

    No, those horses are not abused as claimed and need to be banned, that is nonsense.

    What NYC carriages should get, in a rational world, is more support and protection, so they can do their job without the terrible harassing they have to live with every minute they are working.

    How would anyone like to go work every day knowing someone will be yelling obscenities at them, harassing them, trying to run their clients off and baselessly demeaning them in the media?

    How would a lawyer, doctor, teacher, priest, factory worker keep going to work running a gauntlet of protesters all the hours they are at work and know that is going to be there for the rest of their working lives and demonized to the gullible public relentlessly?

    That is where the abuse is.
    The carriage industry in NYC is the one being abused in this situation, not the horses they use.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    well I cannot get the link to work, but the website
    www.opposingviews.com has a good article from 2011 on the nyc carriage horse controversy.

    The argument that 'government" is coming to close down all horse operations everywhere is as bad as the argument that the NRA uses to scare people about having their guns confiscated. If animals are treated well and taken care of, pulled off the streets when it is so hot and congested, fed properly, given medical care, etc.,, there would be no problems with the use of horses in carriage work.

    However, double shifting, sending horses off to new holland, not giving them proper medical treatment, etc., shows that the regulations in NYC are not now working. nor being followed. Having the dead Juliet wearing Rusty's ID tags shows that something is rotten in the industry. Something has to change. And since the carriage owners are so rabid, then there is no room for compromise.

    And there's also the issue of money: When people are encouraged to "pay in cash," is that income being reported? Why ask for cash?

    Let the newspapers expose and report what they find out is wrong int he carriage industry. Otherwise, we'd never have known about all the dead horses and those sent off to auction.
    What, didn't Lizzy give you the link?!
    The carriage owners are rabid?

    Oh dear, this is rich!
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=313876

    It's not the carriage people who use little girls as pawns for their cause...
    Oh, not to mention they are nasty enough to young children in the hack line as well.
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...light=children
    I have also heard of protesters yanking children out of the carriages...I am amazed they lived to tell the tale....
    Quote Originally Posted by BigMama1 View Post
    Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
    GNU Terry Prachett


    4 members found this post helpful.

  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    well I cannot get the link to work, but the website
    www.opposingviews.com has a good article from 2011 on the nyc carriage horse controversy.

    The argument that 'government" is coming to close down all horse operations everywhere is as bad as the argument that the NRA uses to scare people about having their guns confiscated. If animals are treated well and taken care of, pulled off the streets when it is so hot and congested, fed properly, given medical care, etc.,, there would be no problems with the use of horses in carriage work.

    However, double shifting, sending horses off to new holland, not giving them proper medical treatment, etc., shows that the regulations in NYC are not now working. nor being followed. Having the dead Juliet wearing Rusty's ID tags shows that something is rotten in the industry. Something has to change. And since the carriage owners are so rabid, then there is no room for compromise.

    And there's also the issue of money: When people are encouraged to "pay in cash," is that income being reported? Why ask for cash?

    Let the newspapers expose and report what they find out is wrong int he carriage industry. Otherwise, we'd never have known about all the dead horses and those sent off to auction.

    C&C You are far to intelligent and have shown to much compassion for horses in TRULY destitute situations to be letting Elizabeth Forel use you like she is.

    Continuing to repeat things that are untrue will never make them fact in any circumstance.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


    5 members found this post helpful.

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    And there's also the issue of money: When people are encouraged to "pay in cash," is that income being reported? Why ask for cash?
    Many businesses like cash; most of them with far more tax impact than the horse carriage industry. Should cash be banned in restaurants (I mean, you know waiters don't report all their cash tips, right?) or taxis?
    Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia


    4 members found this post helpful.

  14. #234
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    The argument that 'government" is coming to close down all horse operations everywhere is as bad as the argument that the NRA uses to scare people about having their guns confiscated. If animals are treated well and taken care of, pulled off the streets when it is so hot and congested, fed properly, given medical care, etc.,, there would be no problems with the use of horses in carriage work.
    So if outside temp is going to determine "poor care" or set a precedence for possible abuse, are you going to horse shows and reporting them for continuing classes when the temps reach 91 degrees? I'm guessing jumpers, hunters, barrels, cutting, Park Class, heck even Western Pleasure are all a helluva lot more strenuous than walking with a carriage.
    Congested? Crowded is abuse? Severe and violent congestion is when the mounted police are called in. Working on stopping that too? Forel and Co. keeps a tight lip on that bit of irony.
    Fed properly? Really...have you seen the horses? What is your definition of proper feed, condition and weight?
    Given medical care? So now they're all the Walking Wounded? *sigh*


    However, double shifting, sending horses off to new holland, not giving them proper medical treatment, etc., shows that the regulations in NYC are not now working. nor being followed. Having the dead Juliet wearing Rusty's ID tags shows that something is rotten in the industry. Something has to change. And since the carriage owners are so rabid, then there is no room for compromise.
    Double shifting, IF it happens...is abuse? So what is endurance riding?
    Sending horses to New Holland...I'll be shocked and mortified the day ANY government regulations state that nobody is allowed to sell any livestock through any auction because it upsets people. Or because there *might* be a purchase by a meat buyer. So after the bazillion threads about how "less than 1% of all horses go for meat" it's now "any horse going to auction WILL BE MEAT!" What's the actual DATA on the percentage of carriage horses that went through auction? What's the percentage of any carriage horses that went through auction DIRECTLY from the carriage driver? Have you bothered wondering about the reasoning for the fakakta "all horses to be sold/given to buyers who promise not to send to auction" ridiculousness? It's because they want to control 3rd party problems, not because carriage drivers were sending to auction. And what the heck is wrong with auctions anyways? Guess how many horses are sold via auctions. If auctions are legal, how the HELL can you or anyone stipulate that other people are not allowed to use them? You USED to have a legal license...try to remember the law.
    And talking about rabid....read some of your content on this BB through the years. And read NYClass. The class part doesn't fit.
    How many horses die in eventing? Racing? Rodeos? In meadows? In stalls? Aortic rupture, aneurism, etc happen anywhere and everywhere. If the horse dropping dead is not emaciated, etc then Nature Happened. It's not going to skip over carriage horses because some uneducated, inexperienced animal rights people might see it.
    Spooking and running into things? I grew up working in a 100+ horse stables. That happened once every other year or so. Into a tree, into another horse when playing, spooking into the side of a barn, into traffic, etc.

    And there's also the issue of money: When people are encouraged to "pay in cash," is that income being reported? Why ask for cash?
    Same reason I only accept cash. I'm not a walking bank, I can't verify a check has enough in the account to cover that amount. And I don't have, nor can financially justify, the ability to use credit cards. Nor will I use a credit card for anything I can avoid using it for. Not everyone wants to pay interest on everything they purchase.
    So myself and a buttload more business people I know are...what? Crooked? Cheaters? Tax Evaders?
    No really.I want to know...


    Let the newspapers expose and report what they find out is wrong int he carriage industry. Otherwise, we'd never have known about all the dead horses and those sent off to auction.
    Change your stance on reporters?
    Unless the tv reporter is a horse owner, she probably has no knowledge of horses other than what is told to her. And if the rescue woman is a local source for horse information, then the reporter is more likely to believe her over strangers who call and email.
    Someone local with horse knowledge needs to contact the tv station and explain to them what has happened. Reporters like to have sources, and if there is anyone in the Roanoke VA area who can go talk to the reporter and give her the correct information, then that would help.
    Reporters only report what they are told. Not many are investigative reporters who are experienced reporters with lots of sources and who question everything.
    You would think that reporter would have a local veterinarian as a source for horse injury information.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


    7 members found this post helpful.

  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    The argument that 'government" is coming to close down all horse operations everywhere is as bad as the argument that the NRA uses to scare people about having their guns confiscated. If animals are treated well and taken care of, pulled off the streets when it is so hot and congested, fed properly, given medical care, etc.,, there would be no problems with the use of horses in carriage work.
    So if outside temp is going to determine "poor care" or set a precedence for possible abuse, are you going to horse shows and reporting them for continuing classes when the temps reach 91 degrees? I'm guessing jumpers, hunters, barrels, cutting, Park Class, heck even Western Pleasure are all a helluva lot more strenuous than walking with a carriage.
    Congested? Crowded is abuse? Severe and violent congestion is when the mounted police are called in. Working on stopping that too? Forel and Co. keeps a tight lip on that bit of irony.
    Fed properly? Really...have you seen the horses? What is your definition of proper feed, condition and weight?
    Given medical care? So now they're all the Walking Wounded? *sigh*


    However, double shifting, sending horses off to new holland, not giving them proper medical treatment, etc., shows that the regulations in NYC are not now working. nor being followed. Having the dead Juliet wearing Rusty's ID tags shows that something is rotten in the industry. Something has to change. And since the carriage owners are so rabid, then there is no room for compromise.
    Double shifting, IF it happens...is abuse? So what is endurance riding?
    Sending horses to New Holland...I'll be shocked and mortified the day ANY government regulations state that nobody is allowed to sell any livestock through any auction because it upsets people. Or because there *might* be a purchase by a meat buyer. So after the bazillion threads about how "less than 1% of all horses go for meat" it's now "any horse going to auction WILL BE MEAT!" What's the actual DATA on the percentage of carriage horses that went through auction? What's the percentage of any carriage horses that went through auction DIRECTLY from the carriage driver? Have you bothered wondering about the reasoning for the fakakta "all horses to be sold/given to buyers who promise not to send to auction" ridiculousness? It's because they want to control 3rd party problems, not because carriage drivers were sending to auction. And what the heck is wrong with auctions anyways? Guess how many horses are sold via auctions. If auctions are legal, how the HELL can you or anyone stipulate that other people are not allowed to use them? You USED to have a legal license...try to remember the law.
    And talking about rabid....read some of your content on this BB through the years. And read NYClass. The class part doesn't fit.
    How many horses die in eventing? Racing? Rodeos? In meadows? In stalls? Aortic rupture, aneurism, etc happen anywhere and everywhere. If the horse dropping dead is not emaciated, etc then Nature Happened. It's not going to skip over carriage horses because some uneducated, inexperienced animal rights people might see it.
    Spooking and running into things? I grew up working in a 100+ horse stables. That happened once every other year or so. Into a tree, into another horse when playing, spooking into the side of a barn, into traffic, etc.

    And there's also the issue of money: When people are encouraged to "pay in cash," is that income being reported? Why ask for cash?
    Same reason I only accept cash. I'm not a walking bank, I can't verify a check has enough in the account to cover that amount. And I don't have, nor can financially justify, the ability to use credit cards. Nor will I use a credit card for anything I can avoid using it for. Not everyone wants to pay interest on everything they purchase.
    So myself and a buttload more business people I know are...what? Crooked? Cheaters? Tax Evaders?
    No really.I want to know...


    Let the newspapers expose and report what they find out is wrong int he carriage industry. Otherwise, we'd never have known about all the dead horses and those sent off to auction.
    Change your stance on reporters?
    THANK YOU.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  16. #236
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    My family was in the vehicular livery business for more than twenty years. I worked there myself for quite some time. I can tell you all that livery is a cash-driven industry for many reasons, one of which is tradition. It's a holdover of the old days to simply be paid in cash so that you can immediately use that cash to purchase goods for the horse (or, in our case, gas for the car before returning it to the shop).

    It's also a guarantee that the driver will have something in-hand when they go home, as it's impractical for the livery company to be cutting checks at the end of every shift. In our company, drivers had accounts, and when folks paid with check or credit card, the money went on their account. Yes, it existed, but it wasn't accessible. It did a driver little good to have huge credit card runs all shift, but empty pockets when they got to the gas station. Cash was important to sustaining the day-to-day driving.

    Additionally, credit cards require processing fees (which add up!), and checks can (and do!!) bounce. We had one client who bounced ELEVEN checks on us in the time it took the bank to get back to us on the first one. Those drivers never recouped that money.

    There's also the simple issue of knowing that the money earned by a single driver was indeed in the hands of that driver. No shared pool for potential confusion over whose fares were what. In our company, everything was computerized, so there was a smaller chance of this type of argument. However, not every company was so fortunate.

    As I liked to tell my staff when the computers went down, livery has been a trade for HUNDREDS of years. We've had computers helping us for less than twenty. Buck up and grab a pen.

    And, the big no-brainer: These clients are almost exclusively tourists. They're from out of town, out of state, and out of country. US currency is, by far, the best way to prevent fraud and scams that could come back on the driver. Frankly, this is probably the only reason any driver needs to choose cash.

    These are just the reasons off the top of my head, and I'm sure there are others. I just wanted to put to rest yet another inaccurate, false-issue talking point.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    And there's also the issue of money: When people are encouraged to "pay in cash," is that income being reported? Why ask for cash?
    Why NOT ask for cash? Does asking for cash automatically make one a shady drug dealer? No. As has already been mentioned, checks need to be taken to be cashed and verified. Credit cards cost the vendor a certain amount that goes to the CC companies. In short, cash is the only practical way to go.

    I've been to NYC recently, had a lovely carriage ride through Central Park, all the horses were in great weight and didn't look at all stressed. I see no issue here, other than some horse lady ninnies complaining that they wouldn't keep their horse in the same conditions (read: typical bickering about how it "should" be done). There's no widespread welfare issue with the carriage horses. I see what's happening with the NYC carriage industry, and can see it eventually bleeding to ANY other discipline, and horse ownership in general. It's a slippery slope. If we can't stand up together for one part of the industry which is being horrendously misrepresented by a bunch of fanatics, who is going to stand up for YOUR horse when they come after you?


    10 members found this post helpful.

  18. #238
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    Using legal tender in a business transaction is proof of fraud?

    I put the wrong halters on my horses yesterday. Clearly it was an an egregious act of animal abuse. The mixed up halters totally clashed with the horses coats. I was also trying to defraud the farrier. How, I don't know but I'm sure the PETA people will come up with some crazy theory.

    Come on, people. Y'all are really grasping at straws.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


    12 members found this post helpful.

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnwood View Post
    C&C You are far to intelligent and have shown to much compassion for horses in TRULY destitute situations to be letting Elizabeth Forel use you like she is.

    Continuing to repeat things that are untrue will never make them fact in any circumstance.
    Don't lawyers call this "hearsay" and it is not admissible in court? CNC, are you a lawyer?

    DEFINITION -Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience. When submitted as evidence, such statements are called hearsay evidence. ...
    Last edited by Amwrider; Sep. 19, 2013 at 11:57 AM.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


    3 members found this post helpful.

  20. #240
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    Come to think about it....if the new Mayor does try to eliminate the carriages and it goes to trial, I wouldn't be surprised if the judge would throw the whole case out because of hearsay on the part of the RARAs. That is all they have to go on.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


    5 members found this post helpful.

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