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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post
    How am I completely ignorant in this matter? I've seen how bad the local 4H horse club is with my own eyes - it's a joke and a racket run by the same two families for at least a decade and their kids are the appointed instructors - and we've had discussions on this forum about how bad 4H can be on numerous occasions when there's no real standard for it. Perhaps it is you who needs to get some real perspective.
    So, your 4H experience is based on a drive-by evaluation and some stuff you read on a bb.

    Impressive.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  2. #142
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    As someone not involved in 4-H, Pony Club or showing at all, might it just be fair to say that just like anything in life, there are GREAT 4-H/PC/show venues, and there are crappy ones that give the whole organization a bad name?

    Just like anything -- trainers, rescues, products or tack, or (to remove it from the horse world) cops, lawyers, mechanics, etc. -- one bad experience can taint your worldview of a segment as a whole.

    Just my random Friday musings
    "Let's face it -- Beezie Madden is NOT looking over her shoulder for me anytime
    soon . . . or ever, even in her worst nightmares."


    Member, Higher Standards Leather Care Addicts Anonymous


    4 members found this post helpful.

  3. #143
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    As someone who greatly benefitted from the 4-H experience (including becoming an IFYE Ambassador to West Germany in 1986), I agree fully that 4-H and every other organization are only as good as the volunteers running it. I gave back nearly 20 years of volunteering in Wisconsin before I moved to Virginia. The clubs I knew were heavily into horsemanship and safety. In fact, I was "pooh-poohed" when I tried to bring that safety knowledge to certain breed shows. I was told I was a silly overreacting 4-H parent and how cute was it that I wore helmets in every mounted class, regardless of discipline, so that I was a good role model for my child. Whateves.

    I was also once told that it was inappropriate of me to tell a spectator to remove his feet from the rail while I was actively trying to show my young horse in a flat class. Apparently, according to my fellow show management (I was also on the committee), I was supposed to bring that to the steward's attention and have her tell the guy to keep his feet out of the ring. Fellow show management also made a huge deal out of it, questioning whether or not the gentleman actually existed, since no one else saw the offending feet that were moved after a polite request and a thank you+ smile

    Good thing those feet didn't cause a wreck or my language would have been highly inappropriate for polite company.
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
    Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyinBey++ View Post
    I was supposed to bring that to the steward's attention and have her tell the guy to keep his feet out of the ring.
    As you rode by, you were supposed to scan for the steward, stop the class and make the request? good idea

    I have no compunction whatsoever about asking spectators to please cease and desist -- from the saddle or as a spectator. I'm always nice about it because the person (usually) doesn't realize what they're doing can cause a problem and there's no reason not to educate them. Nicely.

    re: 4H The horsemanship at the clubs around here leaves something to be desired. But their other programs are good.

    And I know of other clubs, such as the one you were in, HFB, that had excellent equine programs. As others have said, you can't judge the whole organization by the only one you've ever seen and what posters on a BB say.
    __________________________
    "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
    the best day in ten years,
    you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #145
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    what a horrific scene. I too grew up in a very well run 4-H program and am shocked to hear of this. In all my years, I've never seen anything like that a show, and I've shown multiple disciplines like many of you.

    Here's hoping the other kids are recovering as well as OP's client.
    “At first everything is hard, next it becomes easier, then habitual, and only now does it have a chance to become beautiful. George H. Morris



  6. #146
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    Why is Lex being attacked for stating what he knows about 4-H clubs in his area of VA? As others have stated, some clubs are good and some are bad in all states.

    One of the many pony clubs in coastal SC has some mothers and daughters who know nothing, do dangerous things with their horses, and contradict what the leaders tell kids to do. It's amazing that one club can be great, and 50 miles away, another club can be full of "experts in their own minds."


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #147
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    Because Lex does not live in the area, nor does he know jack about agriculture. He lives in the DC metropolitan area and that area has no 4-H.

    I live in the area he claims to have knowledge about and I am telling you - he is NOT aware of the local 4-H clubs activities. I am because I work with 4-H and FFA through an umbrella program. He does not have children, he does not work with children. He does not work in agribusiness, nor does he have any direct knowledge of agriculture in this region.

    I am not an expert by any stretch. But I am directly involved with agribusiness in this area. Lex is not.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to a FB meeting.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


    7 members found this post helpful.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to a FB meeting.
    FB = Farm Bureau, not Facebook
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
    Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    Because Lex does not live in the area, nor does he know jack about agriculture. He lives in the DC metropolitan area and that area has no 4-H.

    I live in the area he claims to have knowledge about and I am telling you - he is NOT aware of the local 4-H clubs activities. I am because I work with 4-H and FFA through an umbrella program. He does not have children, he does not work with children. He does not work in agribusiness, nor does he have any direct knowledge of agriculture in this region.

    I am not an expert by any stretch. But I am directly involved with agribusiness in this area. Lex is not.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to a FB meeting.
    So the Fairfax County 4H where I live doesn't exist because the almighty [JSwan] says so?! Well, that's a mind-blower! Thanks for setting me straight! I am relieved that all the nonsense I dealt with in that group of backyard barn idiots was just a figment of my imagination since they never existed! I NEVER EVER claimed to work in agribusiness nor did I ever claim to work with children. Why would I say such things?
    Last edited by Moderator 1; Sep. 21, 2013 at 07:52 AM.
    Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildandWickedWarmbloods View Post
    Why is Lex being attacked for stating what he knows about 4-H clubs in his area of VA? As others have stated, some clubs are good and some are bad in all states.

    One of the many pony clubs in coastal SC has some mothers and daughters who know nothing, do dangerous things with their horses, and contradict what the leaders tell kids to do. It's amazing that one club can be great, and 50 miles away, another club can be full of "experts in their own minds."
    Because he's making broad statements with little evidence to support them.

    As for your comments, mothers are contradicting leaders and giving dangerous advice. How is that the fault of the 4-H program?

    It would suggest to me that at least the kids are hearing a different viewpoint from the 4-H volunteers. And that would be a good thing, would it not?
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    Because he's making broad statements with little evidence to support them.
    How so? Go back to past discussions about 4H and a lot of people agree with what I've said based on their own observations and experiences with local 4H groups that were poorly run and managed like the one I dealt with. You and some others claim that 4H groups are special magical snowflakes that we're obligated to support as volunteers if we want them to succeed. Newsflash! 4H groups are NOT at all run by outside volunteers who want to do good things, despite what the 4H websites might imply. I've seen firsthand that they are run by the children and their families who take on leadership roles in the groups and THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKE DECISIONS about how things are done. If they choose to do something in a bad way, that's the way it is until they decide to change it or someone else takes over and does it differently. You can't make them change anything they do any more than you can move a boulder by kicking it uphill.
    Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!



  12. #152
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    If Lex must have kids to be able to have an opinion on 4-H Clubs, oh wait, neither of the 2 people bashing him have children either!

    One pony club here in SC has some participants, adults and teenagers, who have done very dangerous things with horses and have told other kids to do the same. Not 4-H clubs. And not differences of opinion. Like riding out in to a herd of horses. And giving lessons to other kids in same situation. Which behavior has been bashed when Auventura2 did it and posted. Carry on with the Lex bashing. The rule must be that men must have kids in order to have an opinion on a 4-H club in Va, but women don't have to have one. And in Massachusetts?


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #153
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    My 4-H leader had *no* children in the club.
    His daughter was grown and out of the house. He continued to volunteer because he was a standup guy.
    The Youth Center in my hometown was named after him.

    His husbandry expertise was sought out by more than one of the local ACO's, who used to ask him to go educate people who bought a horse, put it in the backyard, and had no clue how to care for it.

    He brought us to farms to visit Saddlebred, Morgan, and TB breeders and judges, who shared their knowledge with us.

    I ended up going to work for a TB breeder I met through 4-H. He was a superb horseman, one whom Denny Emerson referred to recently as an authority. Some of you older folk might know him--Norman Hall. I learned a metric ton of stuff there, and all the folks at Hall's encouraged me to ignore my HS guidance counselor and become a DVM.
    That included a past president of the AAEP I met through these contacts.

    After vet school, I've paid my debt in a small way by giving talks to 4-H groups. Some of the leaders were better horsemen than others, but *all* were interested in having their kids learn as much as possible from as many horsemen as possible.

    So yes, Lex, your small sample BS about how one club near you has some nepotism thing going does not at all mean that is the norm in 4-H, any more than it is in Pony Club. And yes, I know firsthand of a PC group in which that was the case for years. And guess what? I don't for a minute believe that is the norm in Pony Club.

    If you don't think that getting involved will change things, get the hell out of the way. But quit throwing stones if you haven't got the stones to try and change it, which seems to be the case.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    So yes, Lex, your small sample BS about how one club near you has some nepotism thing going does not at all mean that is the norm in 4-H, any more than it is in Pony Club.
    He didn't say it was the norm, and I certainly didn't take his post that way. Like many, Lex seems to have encountered one lousy 4-H group. I have too, although the majority of the clubs I'm familiar with seem to be focused on fun, safety and learning.

    I also have to kind of laugh about JSwan's comment that someone in DC couldn't possibly comment on something happening in Virginia...in Western Canadian terms, those two places are directly on top of each other...it would be like trying to say that someone who lives in Calgary would have NO CONCEPT of Agribusiness in, say, Balzac. I mean, the Calgarian might not...but plenty of people who WORK in Calgary actually LIVE near Balzac.
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior


    2 members found this post helpful.

  15. #155
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    Even when 4-H leaders are parents, they are still volunteers, and it takes a lot of time and even some amount out of pocket to get through a year. It tends to mean your own child gets less of your time, especially at events.

    If one wants to mention a particular situation that seems badly run and corrupt, fine. But that wasn't what was said, which was that ALL were like that.

    Like most leaders in my club, nothing would make me happier than to pass off the leader responsibilities to someone who I could trust to do the job well. I bristle at the implication that my association with this organization is corrupt.

    I had an interesting experience at a fair recently. A child opined that "of course so and so won; they always do because the parents paid off the judges."

    I replied, "Do you think you did everything you could have done to show your best here today?"

    The child squirmed a little. "I could have done better."

    "So what will you change for next time?" I asked.

    "Work harder," said the child.

    "But work harder at *what*?" I asked. "What specifically are you going to work harder at?"

    Child offered that more time practicing with the animal at home would make the performance better. I hope child remembers that and follows through.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


    6 members found this post helpful.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    Even when 4-H leaders are parents, they are still volunteers, and it takes a lot of time and even some amount out of pocket to get through a year. It tends to mean your own child gets less of your time, especially at events.

    If one wants to mention a particular situation that seems badly run and corrupt, fine. But that wasn't what was said, which was that ALL were like that.

    Like most leaders in my club, nothing would make me happier than to pass off the leader responsibilities to someone who I could trust to do the job well. I bristle at the implication that my association with this organization is corrupt.
    My son was in diapers when I was recruited to be the superintendent of my county's 4-H fair show. I continued until I moved to VA (he was in high school.) I would have liked to continue here, but I haven't had much chance. I don't care much for in the saddle instruction, but I love introducing newbies to safe horsemanship on the ground.

    Given what 4-H has done for me, it's like a knife in my heart to see others paint the whole organization with the same crappy brush. And yes, some of you have done that, intentionally or not.
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
    Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugbygirl View Post
    He didn't say it was the norm, and I certainly didn't take his post that way. Like many, Lex seems to have encountered one lousy 4-H group. I have too, although the majority of the clubs I'm familiar with seem to be focused on fun, safety and learning.

    I also have to kind of laugh about JSwan's comment that someone in DC couldn't possibly comment on something happening in Virginia...in Western Canadian terms, those two places are directly on top of each other...it would be like trying to say that someone who lives in Calgary would have NO CONCEPT of Agribusiness in, say, Balzac. I mean, the Calgarian might not...but plenty of people who WORK in Calgary actually LIVE near Balzac.
    I live in Fairfax County and JSwan is only 20-something miles from me as the crow flies, so we're not in different worlds, despite her belief that I'm somehow 200 miles away in a different region. I can get to farm country in 30 minutes, easily.
    Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post
    I live in Fairfax County and JSwan is only 20-something miles from me as the crow flies, so we're not in different worlds, despite her belief that I'm somehow 200 miles away in a different region.
    Lex - you are NOT part of agriculture in this region. In another thread you started spouting off about agriculture in MY county. As if you were some sort of freakin' expert on farming and knew all the ins and outs of public policy in this area. Your experience consists of "visiting people in this county".

    It's [bull]. A load of [bull]. You are not part of agriculture in this region and know nothing about farming. You also know squat about 4-H as an organization. You certainly know nothing about agriculture, nor are you involved in agriculture or its supporting organizations.

    Your world IS a different world. Your area is inhabited by millions of people. It is an urban jungle. This county is almost entirely comprised of farms and open space. The population is 65,000. The largest industry is FARMING. It's one of the most productive regions in the state. It is a totally different world. If you actually knew as much as you say you do you'd not compare the two regions.

    Just because you visit people out in the country does not make you knowledgeable about agriculture. I don't know what you're playing at, and I'm not one to call people out. But your recent posts are way over the top. The last time you did this you tried to come off as an expert on foxhunting - and you've never even hunted nor are you part of that community. You also got called out previously for trying to come off as an expert on the farming community in which I live.

    The people and orgs you're maligning are not here to defend themselves and they don't deserve the pokes and prods from someone who lives in a freakin' condo.

    I just spent the evening with a room full of farmers, FFA, and 4-H kids. They're good people. The kids are going to grow up to be the people who put the food on YOUR table. Again, I'm not one to call people out and I don't pay attention to all the little cliques, groups, and harems on this BB - I just ignore it. I don't even visit this BB that much anymore. But whatever you're doing, whatever you're playing at - you finally went overboard.

    If any of y'all think that your PC or 4-H isn't up to snuff, roll up your sleeves and volunteer.
    Last edited by Moderator 1; Sep. 21, 2013 at 07:56 AM.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


    7 members found this post helpful.

  19. #159
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    Didn't someone causing a fuss here get called out for pretending to be a lawyer on the forums for years? Sheesh. Some 4H clubs suck and promote bad horsemanship and dangerous handling. I hope the kids in the OP are ok and move on to a different organization because that one definitely sounds like the poorly run dangerous variety.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoolMeadows View Post
    Didn't someone causing a fuss here get called out for pretending to be a lawyer on the forums for years? Sheesh. Some 4H clubs suck and promote bad horsemanship and dangerous handling. I hope the kids in the OP are ok and move on to a different organization because that one definitely sounds like the poorly run dangerous variety.
    That was a girl claiming to be a veterinarian for years, if I remember correctly. Caused a big bruhahah because she was constantly dispensing diagnosis and medical advice for a long time.
    Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!


    1 members found this post helpful.

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