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  1. #101
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    What I am stumped on is why wasn't this addressed at the show? Did anyone say anything or do anything? Apparently not as two more kids went down. WOW.
    I hope everyone is ok but the fact is someone should have done something about it right then and there.



  2. #102
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    I don't think it is fair to bash 4-H...like many things, it is different in different parts of the country. I was in 4-H, and traveled around the world and had incredible opportunties because of 4-H. The horse shows in some places may not be the most sophisticated but safety and horemanship and learning aside, it seems a bit hypocritical and unfair to condemn people who may do all they can or have access to.

    There are some pretty horrendous things that go on at some of the biggest shows in the country with some big names...so lets not forget that before we attack young kids who are easy targets.

    I think it would be interesting to see this video as well.
    "All life is precious"
    Sophie Scholl


    6 members found this post helpful.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moesha View Post
    I don't think it is fair to bash 4-H...like many things, it is different in different parts of the country. I was in 4-H, and traveled around the world and had incredible opportunties because of 4-H. The horse shows in some places may not be the most sophisticated but safety and horemanship and learning aside, it seems a bit hypocritical and unfair to condemn people who may do all they can or have access to.

    There are some pretty horrendous things that go on at some of the biggest shows in the country with some big names...so lets not forget that before we attack young kids who are easy targets.

    I think it would be interesting to see this video as well.
    Moesha, I agree with what you say, but keep in mind, the OP, and most of the other people responding, are NOT attacking the kids but the parents, those in charge of running the 4-H programs, and the show officials(organizers, stewards, and judges).

    When I think of 4-H, I also have a bad taste in my mouth but I've only got 3 actual experiences and 2 were not good. The only good one was judging a 4-H show and the kids were pretty darn good.

    The bad experiences:
    1. As a teen, I boarded my horse and the local 4-H club AT THAT TIME, did not allow people to join if you boarded your horse and therefore you couldn't show in the 4-H classes in open shows and 4-H shows. Keep in mind this was in the '60's. By the time I turned 19, the local club did relax the rules and allowed people who boarded to join.

    2. I was boarding at a barn in the mid 70's and the barn owner was asked if the local 4-H could do a judging clinic at the farm. The judging included confirmation etc. Barn owner then asked us boarders to participate. The horse I had at that time had sidebone, ringbone, and navicular and had bouts of soundness with corrective shoeing. I said I'd be glad to participate and would braid my horse to make him look super and for him to be considered a 'ringer'. When we did show them, I intentionally left the horse 'pointing' (obviously indicating navicular). The 4-H leader was going through telling all the kids the good and bad points and grading the horses on their confirmation. Keep in mind my horse was 'pointing', and the horse also was U-necked in that the lower portion of neck was quite pronounced. Basically the neck on up-side-down so he was anything but a confirmation prospect in the first place. When the leader came to my horse he basically said what good confirmation my horse had and how clean his legs were and he should be considered the 'best' horse there! We did have a number of successful and sound show horses in the group.

    I simply could NOT keep my mouth shut and IMMEDIATELY pointed out the 'pointing' and corrective shoeing (with wedge pads no less) indicating navicular and you could see the sidebone as well as the U neck. I didn't give a damn if the leader was embarrassed or not but those kids sure didn't have to be subjected to poor training.
    Sue
    Back in my day, we didn't have as many warning labels because people weren't so dang stupid!


    9 members found this post helpful.

  4. #104
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    Aug. 17, 2004
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    Rixeyville, VA
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    Checking in again. MSJ is correct that there is no kid bashing and I am a former 4-Her with very positive experiences. This particular state horse show is the show I had attended at the dawn of time when I was a child. I always had safety driven into my head, so I was astounded at this turn of events at a 4-H show.

    To clarify matters for those who have not read the entire thread. My boarders' child was injured first. She was stepped on by her horse when she fell off and was carted away in an ambulance because the EMT suspected she had a broken leg. Both parents were in shock, one getting the horse and the other going in the ambulance to the hospital. The other parent went immediately after putting the horse away. I don't think either of them were focused on the parent who caused the disturbance. The good news is their daughter has a bone bruise, not a break. She is taped up and limping, but has a really good attitude about the experience.

    I am surprised that nothing was done after this first fall. The parent in question was rather loud and obvious based on the video I saw. Apparently nobody spoke to her. The class continued. The class wasn't broken up into smaller groups to reduce the chance of crowding and accidents. Not long after the first fall, a more terrible fall of several riders occurred in close proximity to this parent, including one child being face planted into the fence. The injured child had to leave by helicopter. I'm not sure how the other child got to the hospital.

    At this point, if I were the judge or steward, I would have stopped the class and taken some action. There was a safety problem here. Instead, they went on with the class and pinned it. I've never been in a flat class of any kind where so many kids were injured.

    I wish I had the video to post, but I don't. I am just appalled by the lack of common sense in handling a problem. I'm even willing to accept the premise that the fishwife parent had nothing to do with it. You still have 4 kids who fell off in two separate incidents, 3 of whom are off to the hospital. It's time to do something, like split the class, make kids ride individually, tell the spectators to be silent, whatever. Apparently it was business as usual and this class was more of a demolition derby than a hunter hack class.

    Once again, I was not there, so I couldn't do a thing. I heard this story from my boarders upon their return home and saw the video of their DD's fall.
    Where Norwegian Fjords Rule
    http://www.ironwood-farm.com


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moesha View Post
    safety and horemanship and learning aside, it seems a bit hypocritical and unfair to condemn people who may do all they can or have access to.
    Uh, what? Nope, it's exactly in safety and horsemanship and learning that the problems are. Why would you say, well, aside, from safety & horsemanship & learning it's unfair to condemn them...?

    Besides, nobody's bashing the kids. The kids think they're learning stuff - it's not the kids' fault if they're specifically taught a certain way. And if screaming Moms get your kid 2nd place at the worst - well, guess what everybody just learned?

    Somebody else in this thread said something about 4-H wanting to "keep it simple" and unaffected - yes, that's the attitude I've seen, which you'd think would be commendable, right? But what's meant by that is "we don't need any of that fancy safety stuff." I'll give only one example and I've got tons. We thought it would be nice to get PC and 4H kids together as much as possible - we all love horses, right? But it was pretty appalling from our point of view, and the 4Hers thought we were pretty prissy, I guess. Why? In the barn the 4H kids would be kneeling down literally on their knees, which in USPC you never do, you squat when bandaging or doing anything else down there; safety first, right? you never get down on the ground. Anyway, these kids would be kneeling on the ground directly behind their horses to brush out the scurf in hind fetlocks. "Oh, he's fine, he's such a good horse he'd never kick," was the response of both kids and 4H instructors

    It worked out well for the non-4H kids, though. "Okay, why should you not do that?" Even the D levels saw the obvious danger and even the little ones realized that habits become ingrained: "Are you only ever going to work on that horse? What about another horse?"

    No kid bashing here. The kids were told by their instructors that when you had a good ol' trustworthy horse this kind of stuff is okay.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronwoodFarm View Post
    I am surprised that nothing was done after this first fall. The parent in question was rather loud and obvious based on the video I saw. Apparently nobody spoke to her. The class continued. The class wasn't broken up into smaller groups to reduce the chance of crowding and accidents. Not long after the first fall, a more terrible fall of several riders occurred in close proximity to this parent, including one child being face planted into the fence. The injured child had to leave by helicopter. I'm not sure how the other child got to the hospital.

    At this point, if I were the judge or steward, I would have stopped the class and taken some action. There was a safety problem here. Instead, they went on with the class and pinned it. I've never been in a flat class of any kind where so many kids were injured.

    I wish I had the video to post, but I don't. I am just appalled by the lack of common sense in handling a problem. I'm even willing to accept the premise that the fishwife parent had nothing to do with it. You still have 4 kids who fell off in two separate incidents, 3 of whom are off to the hospital. It's time to do something, like split the class, make kids ride individually, tell the spectators to be silent, whatever. Apparently it was business as usual and this class was more of a demolition derby than a hunter hack class.

    Once again, I was not there, so I couldn't do a thing. I heard this story from my boarders upon their return home and saw the video of their DD's fall.
    My thoughts exactly. After the first fall, and certainly after the second falls, why didn't the judge or steward stop this class and do something sensible, like split the class? 20 kids in a flat class sounds like an accident waiting to happen unless the ring was unusually large.

    Regardless of whether or not the obnoxious parent caused the horses to spook, someone in charge should have asserted some control over a dangerous situation.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #107
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    Aug. 14, 2000
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    Rochester,NY,USA
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    Default It isn't just horse show moms and dads either!

    This is a bit off topic of the horse show but I think it's safe to say that poor behavior from both parents and coaches is certainly not limited to horse show moms and pops by a long shot.

    I'm sure all of you parents out there with school age children (elementary to high school inclusive) have seen and heard SOME parents and coaches at their children's games, be it hockey, football, tennis, etc. being rather loud, obnoxious, screaming at the kids and, if not their kids, everyone else's kids and the coaches and the other team.

    It's been pointed out on this thread that maybe the rules of other equestrian disciplines should be adopted for all equestrian disciplines across the board and enforced as well. Like the dressage riders and absolutely NO noise near the ring, let alone the rider can't talk to his/her horse, or the event riders who, if anyone offers any help, the rider and horse are disqualified. There is NO excuse for the hunter/jumper coaches to stand at the rail and give direction to their students, or for a class to held up waiting for little Poopsie because her trainer wants a couple more practice fences. The more people that don't speak up against those practices, well, you deserve what you get!

    I won't begin to address the Arab show people as the one and only instance I had of going to an Arab show had me aghast! Ok I came from the OLD hunter and jumper school where you didn't set off fire crackers and wave sparklers at your horses to get them to look bug-eyed! Same with the gaited and walking horse people. I do admit to coming from some open shows where there was plenty of hooting and hollering at the gaited and walking horse classes so I know what goes on. I don't condemn them but I don't think it's really necessary either but that's JMHO!
    Sue
    Back in my day, we didn't have as many warning labels because people weren't so dang stupid!



  8. #108
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    Nov. 15, 2007
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    512

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    I guarantee you that if this had happened at our local show venue Fishwife would have been in a neck lock before the first kid hit the ground.


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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne FS View Post
    Uh, what? Nope, it's exactly in safety and horsemanship and learning that the problems are. Why would you say, well, aside, from safety & horsemanship & learning it's unfair to condemn them...?

    Besides, nobody's bashing the kids. The kids think they're learning stuff - it's not the kids' fault if they're specifically taught a certain way. And if screaming Moms get your kid 2nd place at the worst - well, guess what everybody just learned?

    Somebody else in this thread said something about 4-H wanting to "keep it simple" and unaffected - yes, that's the attitude I've seen, which you'd think would be commendable, right? But what's meant by that is "we don't need any of that fancy safety stuff." I'll give only one example and I've got tons. We thought it would be nice to get PC and 4H kids together as much as possible - we all love horses, right? But it was pretty appalling from our point of view, and the 4Hers thought we were pretty prissy, I guess. Why? In the barn the 4H kids would be kneeling down literally on their knees, which in USPC you never do, you squat when bandaging or doing anything else down there; safety first, right? you never get down on the ground. Anyway, these kids would be kneeling on the ground directly behind their horses to brush out the scurf in hind fetlocks. "Oh, he's fine, he's such a good horse he'd never kick," was the response of both kids and 4H instructors

    It worked out well for the non-4H kids, though. "Okay, why should you not do that?" Even the D levels saw the obvious danger and even the little ones realized that habits become ingrained: "Are you only ever going to work on that horse? What about another horse?"

    No kid bashing here. The kids were told by their instructors that when you had a good ol' trustworthy horse this kind of stuff is okay.
    All I was saying is that , 4-H is not the only place were bad horsemanship is around.... there are deliberate things done at far bigger shows with people who are well respected and much biger names and hiding that behind bannered tack rooms and expensive horses doesn't make it any less horrible...

    and while I do agree that horsemanship and safety are things to be concerned about, and people should point out and be vocal when they see things that are dangerous..that you have to give some slack if things are not as polished and advanced

    Lots of 4-H kids are doing the best they can. Some have far more than others but the program is geared to help children and does an amazing job in far more areas than horses.... and unfortunately the equine clubs and programs may not have the best resources available.

    I was fortunate to have have a great 4-H program and be with 4 or 5 kids in my barn that did both the rated shows, pony club and 4-H and everything in between..my experience is mine and I am sure there are a variety out there...I think that we should be vigilant to danger and abuse and yet not completey tear apart a program that is all some kids have.

    I am sorry for jumping to a dramtic conclusion that people were bashing kids, I was just over reaching over some of the comments that were being made about 4-H and how that could hurt kids reading it, who idolize the horse world and have only 4-H as their horse outlet.
    "All life is precious"
    Sophie Scholl



  10. #110
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    May. 4, 2012
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    Wow, this thread has given me a whole new perspective and appreciation for the 4-H program (county and state) where I grew up. I did 4-H for 7 years and it was a safe and tightly run program.

    Once a kid rode into the show ring, there was NO outside coaching allowed. It was a black and white written and enforced rule.

    An unofficial rule that wasn't written down anywhere but was strictly enforced: no activity other than walking/standing/and being quiet was allowed within a good 15 feet of the edge of the ring. If any kids or parents got rambunctious close to the ring a parent or volunteer typically intervened immediately. If that didn't happen, the announcer (who was great) noticed, halted the class, and over the microphone pointed out the kid or parent and asked them to go sit in the bleachers. Haha The potential for public embarrassment seemed to keep just about everyone in line.

    Our programs were also very competitive. All the "big money" kids and horses went along with the "backyard" horses and riders. Lots of mature and knowledgeable volunteers and parents. Lots of great examples of teamwork and sportsmanship. The "big money" kids and "backyard" kids were all treated the same. Good riding, good horsemanship, and good sportsmanship were encouraged and rewarded.


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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moesha View Post
    I don't think it is fair to bash 4-H...like many things, it is different in different parts of the country. I was in 4-H, and traveled around the world and had incredible opportunties because of 4-H. The horse shows in some places may not be the most sophisticated but safety and horemanship and learning aside, it seems a bit hypocritical and unfair to condemn people who may do all they can or have access to.

    There are some pretty horrendous things that go on at some of the biggest shows in the country with some big names...so lets not forget that before we attack young kids who are easy targets.

    I think it would be interesting to see this video as well.
    I wouldn't be a DVM today had it not been for 4-H.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  12. #112
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    Remember, 4-H is dependent upon volunteers. If you think that the quality of instruction is inferior, get involved. You can only make it better.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olowin View Post
    Really long and strange to understand this, I had a great time at the show, and I was talking to a show steward by the office when the news came on her radio that there was an EMT with a girl, I walked over to the ring with the show steward. I saw the girl with the EMT and a bandage on her leg, looked possibly broken. I am a parent, but my kids were in Gymkhana. From My view, the show was well run...but it was a big show with lots going on. I did not see a helicopter come. I was unaware that more kids fell off. It's pretty hard for me to believe this parent would have been obviously interfering with the riders/horses in the ring, the place was certainly crowded. In the Gymkhana area, the volunteers controlled the situation pretty well.
    Did everyone miss this? Appears to possibly be an account from someone there.
    "Aye God, Woodrow..."


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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    Remember, 4-H is dependent upon volunteers. If you think that the quality of instruction is inferior, get involved. You can only make it better.
    4H Horse Clubs are separate from the 4H chapters and they are often little fiefdoms of families where outsiders are not welcome to bring change and things are run like a HS clique.
    Thus do we growl that our big toes have,
    at this moment, been thrown up from below!


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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post
    4H Horse Clubs are separate from the 4H chapters and they are often little fiefdoms of families where outsiders are not welcome to bring change and things are run like a HS clique.
    In my club, Horse is run exactly the same way and on the same footing as Sheep or Poultry or Communications. (Some other clubs have rocketry. I wish we did!)

    No special fiefdom.

    While I have a ton of flexibility in how I run my project, where I chafe is at the two fairs in our county that have a strong bias toward owned animals. And not just owned in the USEF sense, where it's owned in the family, but explicitly there's a bill of sale dated in January or before with the child's name on it for a show in August. Not the sister's name, not the mom's name. You can have a lease by that date, though the animal is not eligible for halter classes if it is leased.

    But this is coming from the State Fair rules, not from 4-H, as I understand it.

    I understand the intent, which is to keep people from bringing ringers in, but frankly that is not a problem in our area. The practical effect is that it keeps us from putting the 4-H kids on the safest, most appropriate mounts, especially for high stress situations like a fairgrounds.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  16. #116
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    Jun. 9, 2012
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    Around here, both 4-H and local shows, you aren't allowed to be ON/NEAR the rail at all, let alone hanging over it, waving at riders, etc.
    Forget standing up against the rail to take a picture of your rider, etc. They will be on you right away for it in order to prevent a horse spooking, etc.

    I really couldn't imagine this lady not being stopped at all? Surely there is some exaggeration somewhere along the lines.

    I did 4-H for 5 years and loved it. Both counties I showed in (and State) ran things very well. I did rabbits for 5 years and about the only thing we had to worry about were ARA's and the one time a mom came in and took a rabbit from it's cage for the market sale without letting the superintendent know. I was on herds duty with several kids from my group and we all split up searching the fair for that rabbit. Good memory, actually. I can laugh about it now! lol.


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  17. #117
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    Oct. 27, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandprixjump View Post
    And the level of cooperation and helping each other out was fabulous. I live in VA now and 4H here isn't even on the same planet. Leaders don't know enough, You don't really qualify for the state show. In Indiana you had to place 1st or 2nd (if first wasn't going to state in that class, to qualify). We didn't have pony club.
    I'm in Indiana as well, and as an 8 year member I must say we apparently have a pretty kick butt 4H program. My club is my family and the focus is 100% the kids. I've been an officer in the club for the last three years and I love it. Safety is the number one priority, fun is second. Many of the parents know a LOT about horses and knowledge is passed around like a hot potato. It makes me incredibly sad that so many people bash 4H because their clubs are less than stellar, it really is fantastic if you go to the right clubs!

    ETA: In recent years ANYONE has been able to go to state fair, regardless of county fair placings. I believe it was due to lack of participation at state level but those numbers are steadily going up.
    Art De TriumphCaballineRebel
    I don't fall... I dismount... with style.


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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long Spot View Post
    Did everyone miss this? Appears to possibly be an account from someone there.
    Looks like folks are missing it and continue to state their opinion about local and/or 4H shows. I think the original post is more about egregious and possibly intentionally dangerous spectator behavior, not 4H per say.

    I would like to hear more from Olowin.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bicoastal View Post
    Looks like folks are missing it and continue to state their opinion about local and/or 4H shows. I think the original post is more about egregious and possibly intentionally dangerous spectator behavior, not 4H per say.

    I would like to hear more from Olowin.
    Olowin sounds like she might have been on the showgrounds but not like she actually knows anything more about the events than the rest of us, since she was not present at the ring where the events took place.

    On 4H -- great article in the Economist about the benefits of 4H a few weeks ago: http://www.economist.com/news/united...rocket-science


    4 members found this post helpful.

  20. #120
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    Unfortunately 4H seems to be dependent on the quality of their volunteers, and the kids depend on the quality of their parents. In this situation both were severely lacking. The question is - what are they/you going to do about it?
    ... _. ._ .._. .._


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