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  1. #61
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    All this trashing of 4H shows on the word of somebody who might or might not have witnessed it and might or might not have access to a video. I reserve judgment until I see this on YouTube.


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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burbank View Post
    I thought that at 4-H shows there was no ringside coaching allowed, especially at regional and state shows
    so there goes her having to coach poopsie
    The 10 years I showed in 4H all the way up through the Regional level there most certainly was NO ringside coaching or the like. Did it happen I'm sure but if you got caught you lost your points period.

    Maybe FL 4H was different but I showed against many of the same kids I showed against on circuit and the competition was even stiffer sometimes then at the rateds because of the sheer number of good kids in one location. There was ZERO issue with quality or the professionalism of the show and the way it was run. Tight ship all the way.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


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  3. #63
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    Jan. 18, 2004
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    Western WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by asb2517 View Post
    What kind of horses are these?? LOL! At Saddlebred shows, hollering, yelling, and cheering are the norm...

    Not making light of the fact that 3 kids fell off, but seriously, if your kid's horse is spooked by yelling to the point the kid falls off, perhaps some desensitizing may be in order...

    It all depends on the discipline, and what the horses are trained to expect.

    So I spent 40 years riding Hunters on the A Circuit, and dressage.

    For Dressage, nobody whispers because you might spook a horse. You could hear a pin drop.

    For Hunters, more background noise, but not hollering, and most horses wear ear pom-poms when they are on course these days.

    Now, for the last year, I've been riding 3 and 5 gaited Saddlebreds, and it's still absolutely amazing to me how much noise they not only put up with, but THRIVE on!

    It's all in what they are used to. Add something unexpected, and you get a spooking horse.

    That said, a Fair is a place absolutely designed to make a horse crazy. Add a nutty parent trying to spook horses? A disaster waiting to happen.
    The truth is always in the middle.


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  4. #64
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    Feb. 14, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne FS View Post
    This will never happen.

    Agree the fishwife at a 4H show needs to be carried bodily away if she won't shut up, but at regular shows hunter classes actually hold the class up if Poopsie's trainer is busy elsewhere. Can't show without the trainer hollering advice, you know, just to make absolutely certain the judge knows who BNT's clients are when it comes time to pinning the class.
    Absolutely ridiculous comment. It's not about needing the trainer to be able to ride, but having the trainer there to comment on any mistakes the rider might make in the class. Hunters aren't like dressage where you get a score and comments from the judge. It is the trainer's job to tell their riders what they or their horses did to place how they placed. I have never seen where just a BNT's presence truly affected the ribbons.



  5. #65
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    I am a 4-H project leader in California. I recommend adults speak up when they see problematic behavior. Much of the program is run by volunteers; not everyone tasked with being a leader or a volunteer knows all that much about their species nor has the spine to stand up and fix an issue with an obnoxious parent (or worse).

    In my area, I would call the county 4-H office and have a nice talk with whoever is the program coordinator. This person, in my county, is effective and efficient, and well able to remove people from the program or otherwise put in measures that can prevent future problems.

    Those of us who know better sometimes have to stand up and help out.

    At the end of the day, 4-H is supposed to be about the kids doing their own work and it is very much supposed to be about the benefit of the kids. I don't personally mind parents helping out helpfully - after all, that is modeling behavior, and it is stressful for the younger kids to keep track of everything that needs doing and sometimes they are not physically skilled or strong enough. But there is a line, and certainly any parent that is this obnoxious should be told they're not welcome.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  6. #66
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    Aug. 26, 2008
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    Remember too, 4H horses are not always the ideal, campaigned, veteran kids' horses you like to see at shows. They are often "projects" that the kids are breaking and training themselves. 4H kids from 6 counties are on Kijiji in my area right now looking for "cheap or free 4H prospects."

    Rightly or wrongly, that's how it is...and if you're around 4H in this area, you know darn well that there are some pretty green kids and pretty green horses at the shows.

    Mostly in my area, the 4H leaders take parents to task. One of our bigger horse clubs has kind of a militant leader...parents can help out, but they WILL demonstrate the highest levels of sportsmanship and support for ALL 4H kids, not just their own.

    4H leaders would have descended on this woman and possibly taken action against the leader of HER club if this story is accurate. That's just completely unacceptable and against the spirit of the 4H program.

    ETA-
    from poltroon's post:
    In my area, I would call the county 4-H office and have a nice talk with whoever is the program coordinator. This person, in my county, is effective and efficient, and well able to remove people from the program or otherwise put in measures that can prevent future problems.
    THis, exactly. The group of leaders/volunteers is very competent and would have been the individuals to approach about this situation in my area. I wouldn't hesitate to involve them if I witnessed any of this.
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior


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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoroughbred1201 View Post
    That said, a Fair is a place absolutely designed to make a horse crazy. Add a nutty parent trying to spook horses? A disaster waiting to happen.
    Many of these fairgrounds are really horse-unfriendly. I don't just mean chaos from carnivals or even the fact that there are all kinds of other animals around - I mean that there may not be a proper/safe warm up area; there may not be any place a horse can be even a little bit naughty without hurting someone. It may not be possible for the kids to get their horses out of their stalls when not competing.

    4-H is about safety above all and adding to difficult conditions in any way should not be tolerated.

    I'm adding this comment in agreement with rugbygirl that often 4-H horses are not the tried and true horses we might like; they're kept in quiet backyards and they might not get hauled out all that often. They may not get enough riding miles because the kids don't have year-round arenas allowing them to really work their horses. Unfortunately, Fair rules make this worse by requiring ownership or long term lease of horses and not allowing borrowed horses. I would love it if we could borrow nice ugly been-there-done-that elderly lesson horses for the kids without having to file false affidavits (as I have been repeatedly urged to do for this purpose). The kids have to be and feel safe.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  8. #68
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    I have seen some horrible things at 4H shows, but I have decided that as soon as I can make it possible time wise, I will volunteer, to help make it better. There was a crow yelling at the last show I was at, to her rider that was riding a totally unsuitable down right dangerous gaited horse that I wouldn't get on much less put a KID on, but luckily the pony my kid was riding was so bombproof that I was only really worried about her overhearing the advice the woman was giving her.

    I am surprised that no one talked to said "fishwife" (fishwife? What's a fishwife?)


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  9. #69
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    Dec. 29, 1999
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    Harrisburg, PA USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by HunterRider992 View Post
    Absolutely ridiculous comment. It's not about needing the trainer to be able to ride, but having the trainer there to comment on any mistakes the rider might make in the class. Hunters aren't like dressage where you get a score and comments from the judge. It is the trainer's job to tell their riders what they or their horses did to place how they placed. I have never seen where just a BNT's presence truly affected the ribbons.
    That's not what the parents think, and not what the BNT's think themselves.

    Agreed that the trainer is there to watch so they can coach effectively afterwards - praise the good parts, improve the faulty parts, but if you don't think for one minute that it's critically important that the BNT be SEEN coaching THAT child, you are very, very naive. As more than one parent has said to me, "What do you think I'm paying for?"


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  10. #70
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    What I find the most appalling and puzzling is that this class allegedly just continued on, incident after incident, for what would be hours. I work for an air ambulance company, so I have some experience with the timeframe that exists around EMS transport.

    So the class has been underway for about 10 minutes and OP's boarder's kid falls off, everyone else stops. Horse is caught, arena is probably cleared out, kid is stabilized, and then everyone waits for the ground ambulance to arrive. That's gotta be running you close to a half-hour. Even if it was onsite, it's probably at least 15-20 minutes before the ambulance is actually driving away from the show. Now all of the kids have to remount, judge has to reorganize his or herself, onward we go.

    Let's say non-air-ambulance kid falls off next. Again, everyone stops while kid gathers herself, everyone probably remains in the arena, while halted. Another 10 minutes.

    Let's say it's another 5-10 before kid smokes her face on the rail, like OP said. Doesn't get up. Horse is caught, everyone stops again. Judge now wants/needs a stiff drink. If there was an ambulance on site, it's now gone, as OP's kid used it just a short while ago. Most often, the first responders on site (ground ambulance) are the ones to indicate that air transport is required. It's going to take about an hour for ground EMS to respond, air ambulance to be dispatched, suitable landing site cleared, kid to be assessed, loaded and helicopter to take off.

    We're looking at a good two-hour flat class here. Did they really carry it on that long and have the audacity to pin the class after that class alone required the use of probably half the county's EMS?


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  11. #71
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    I would bet they would not continue the class until a replacement ground ambulance was on site after the first kid was removed.
    That only ads more time to the waiting process.


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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    I have seen some horrible things at 4H shows, but I have decided that as soon as I can make it possible time wise, I will volunteer, to help make it better.
    Thanks for your plan to step up - that is what is needed, that good and capable people do so.

    I will caution you that you should plan a long game - turning around a difficult program will take a few years of patience and thoughtful effort.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  13. #73
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    Feb. 6, 2003
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    I am surprised that no one talked to said "fishwife" (fishwife? What's a fishwife?)
    Old time term for a woman with a big mouth, bad language, etc. Basically a obnoxiously loud harpy.
    Came about probably because the wives of fishermen would be the ones selling what their spouses caught and way back when before refrigeration they had to yell fast and loud to get everything sold before it went bad.
    So it was an insult to call women who weren't actually selling fish a fishwife.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


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  14. #74
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    Nov. 16, 2004
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    This is exactly what I hate about every stinking 4-H event I've ever been to. Idiot parents are everywhere, but for some reason 4H parents have mastered idiocy beyond anything I've ever seen at any other show. Why do they take it so damned seriously? It's 4H for god sakes.


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  15. #75
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    Dec. 29, 1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlife View Post
    What I find the most appalling and puzzling is that this class allegedly just continued on, incident after incident,
    Yes, which is why when all's said & done we might be dealing with exaggeration here. Not the OP's, who wasn't there, but by those telling the tale.

    If it really happened that Stage Mother was allowed to continue her badgering even after being reprimanded by bystanders, you'd think there'd be a riot after the 2nd kid hit the dirt.


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  16. #76
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    I will caution you that you should plan a long game - turning around a difficult program will take a few years of patience and thoughtful effort.
    Oh I hear you - hence my wait to step up until my calendar frees up!

    Old time term for a woman with a big mouth, bad language, etc. Basically a obnoxiously loud harpy.
    Came about probably because the wives of fishermen would be the ones selling what their spouses caught and way back when before refrigeration they had to yell fast and loud to get everything sold before it went bad.
    Well that's what I thought, but I wasn't sure!



  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne FS View Post
    This will never happen.

    Agree the fishwife at a 4H show needs to be carried bodily away if she won't shut up, but at regular shows hunter classes actually hold the class up if Poopsie's trainer is busy elsewhere. Can't show without the trainer hollering advice, you know, just to make absolutely certain the judge knows who BNT's clients are when it comes time to pinning the class.
    Well, you know what Anne FS, and I'm not directing this to you explicitly, then ALL the hunter people that put up with this type of behavior, without doing something about it, DESERVE IT!
    Last edited by msj; Sep. 16, 2013 at 04:27 PM. Reason: added rolling eyes emoticon
    Sue
    Back in my day, we didn't have as many warning labels because people weren't so dang stupid!


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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoroughbred1201 View Post
    Ban most of the parents to the parking lot and the kids would learn quickly, and be far more self reliant.
    This is exactly what they do at PC rallies There are chaperones that keep an eye on everyone and there is absolutely no parental contact from the time load in ends to the time you leave at the end of the weekend. For us kids it was GLORIOUS! Like being at a horsey slumber party. I'm pretty sure our parents loved it too. They were probably tossing back glasses of wine and having a grand old time without us


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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedmondDressage View Post
    This is exactly what they do at PC rallies There are chaperones that keep an eye on everyone and there is absolutely no parental contact from the time load in ends to the time you leave at the end of the weekend. For us kids it was GLORIOUS! Like being at a horsey slumber party. I'm pretty sure our parents loved it too. They were probably tossing back glasses of wine and having a grand old time without us
    I think this scenario is absolutely the best whenever it is possible, but keep in mind that it does require a critical mass of long-time, older, capable kids to lead the group, and that is not always available.

    My daughter is in a riding school program where this is in fact the rule and it has helped her to grow up so much. They have a carefully chosen teenager in charge of the barn area and all those kids learn to be self-reliant much faster than with adults around. But, a lot places don't have enough kids to create this kind of situation these days.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  20. #80
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    Not necessarily. Often Pony Club rally teams put an older OR more experienced member on a team with newbies and little ones, but it certainly was not always possible and still worked out great. Since rallies are based on rating level it's not unusual to have your D team be entirely very young and/or "first timers." I've been to many rallies where a number of teams were just that way: very young n00bs. And they did GREAT.

    Horse Management, both the adults and the older pony clubbers helping out kept an eye on them, but it's astounding how the little kids every time rose to the occasion. With no mom or dad or bossy "big kids," as Redmond Dressage states, it was just glorious for the little ones who showed just how great they could be. Which is the entire purpose of pony club. Or at least it was back in the day.


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