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  1. #1
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    Default Interesting research about maternal grandsire's effect on foal via the placenta

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  2. #2
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    Quite interesting! Thanks for sharing
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  3. #3
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    Yes, thanks JB!



  4. #4
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    Thoughts w/re:ETs?


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  5. #5
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    Good question goodmorning! Also, the cloning process would be affected. Interesting question indeed.
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  6. #6
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    very interesting!!



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodmorning View Post
    Thoughts w/re:ETs?
    Thank you for posting the study- I'm of the "all about the dam" school and we do some ETs. The study doesn't say what part of the placenta was tested. In ETs the recip mare does not contribute DNA to the foal, so I'm thinking the study tested the placenta that is formed by the embryo, not the part of the placenta attachment from the dam. Here's a link that kind of explains how placentas are formed in different species - partly from the embryo, partly from the mother. http://www.tankonyvtar.hu/en/tartalo...n/ch12s08.html

    I would love to see more on the subject. thanks again for posting.


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  8. #8
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    If the embryo forms part of the placenta, then that can't have anything to do with the mare's sire, so wouldn't be what they were studying They are talking about the dam's sire's influence on the foal, such as the "large heart" gene, such as some stallions becoming broodmare sires
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  9. #9
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    They also mention epigenetics in the study, but don't really explain it or discuss any correlations. Epigenetics is fascinating. Epigenetics is the study of changes in gene expression or cellular phenotype caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence - for example, gene tagging caused by maternal exposure to starvation and/or extreme stress.

    A lot of this information came from studies of the Hongerwinter (Dutch Hunger Winter) during WWI and communist China’s failed "Great Leap Forward". Both resulted in mass starvation including the starvation of pregnant women. Children born during these periods had, when they grew up, higher rates of obesity and schizophrenia than their siblings born during other periods. Mothers who were in their third trimester during the peak period of starvation gave birth to low birth weight babies who grew up normally but had increased rates of diabetes. Mothers who were in their 1st and 2nd trimester during the peak period of starvation gave birth to normal weight babies BUT those babies later grew up and gave birth to babies with abnormally low birth weights. There are a number of other correlations, but interesting was that those babies AND their children showed ongoing effects from the starvation. In other words, the affected children were somehow passing this effect on to their progeny - hence the study of epigenetics which found that these were not changes in the actual nucleotides of DNA, but rather resulted from modifications such as DNA methylation and histone modification, both of which serve to regulate gene expression (bear with me non-science nerds....). Basically, these childrens genes were, in a way, "tagged". Six decades after the Hongerwinter, scientists can still see differences in the tagging of DNA of surviving children's descendants. These effects are felt to wear off over time, but unclear is how long it takes. Also, less severe changes in maternal environment have also been shown to have ongoing consequences. This science is all in it's infancy but could have profound impact on the understanding, prevention and treatment of obesity and mental health.

    SO, why would we care as horse breeders? My thoughts reading the paper and seeing the mention of epigenetics is that this could theoretically explain the times when you have two tall parents and get a 15.3 hand baby. What if 2 or 3 generations back, a mare in the horses pedigree was in a bad situation during the pregnancy and starved. This could theoretically effect her offspring for several generations. Of course this is ALL speculation, but interesting, and I look forward to continued developments in the field!!

    Sorry so geeky, I just can't help it.......And I hope it makes sense, because Dale is out mowing the fields, while I eat bon bons and look at Chrono, so I don't have him to proof it.... "A"


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  10. #10
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    Thanks for the news article. I'm trying to work through the ideas in my head.

    We all know that the damsire transmits his dam's X chromosome intact to his daughters. If it is that chromosome that is somehow given priority in placenta development of all the daughters' foals, how and what causes the male's X to be active or mostly active in the daughter?

    The implications where recipient mares are concerned would seem to be huge, unless the placenta has little or nothing to do with embryonic/fetal development.

    I do wish I understood more about reproduction and genetics. The article mentions "the fetal side" of the placenta. Are there separate maternal and fetal sides to the placenta?
    Last edited by vineyridge; Aug. 14, 2013 at 11:42 AM.
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  11. #11
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    very cool info! anyone care to dumb it down for me?

    are they saying that the sire has some control over how the fetus develops?

    would that mean that say a foal was born low birth weight - that could be pointing to something in the sires genetic make-up and not the mare?

    so sire gets certain genes from his sire and it gets passed on to a certain sex of is offspring?

    it will be very interesting to see my filly develop - she is half WB - the other half being GRP - the sires sire is a Welsh B.... so should be pretty easy to see the influences

    i thought it really interesting how different a Hinny looks compared to a Mule.....



  12. #12
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    THANK YOU Wits End, that was fascinating!

    It's all really interesting stuff.
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  13. #13
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    IIRC, some of the more famous sires--My Babu comes to mind--were foaled or very young during WWII in France. My Babu was tiny from some of the pictures that I've seen. I had always put it down to malnutrition or possible twin. At any rate, I don't believe that I've ever read anything about a tendency to either health problems or small size in his get.

    You know, for population studies, the TRPB records would be invaluable. What I don't know is if things like size at maturity are kept in the JC records also.
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  14. #14
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    according to the article posted on Placentas (my link above) - the embryo, which gets it's genetic info from sire and dam (and damsire), forms part of the placenta. So with an embryo transfer, the genetics are from the donor dam (and damsire), not the recipient (surrogate) mare.

    Whether the placenta is "half" formed by embryo depends on species, according to current scientific explanations (see article). As I understand it, with horses the embryo forms more than 1/2 (more than 50%) of the placenta and the mare that carries the pregnancy forms "attachments" to nurish etc, but no genetic info (dna) is transfered from the recip mare to the embryo. So the damsire's influence on the placenta is already encoded in the embryo's DNA from the Donor mare.

    I'll see if I can find another article that shows how the layers of the placenta is formed from the embryo in communication with the wall of the uterus, in horses specifically.

    I love the science showing us what we knew already: that the dam has at least a 60% influence on the foal, even if chromosomes are 50/50 with the sire.


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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    If the embryo forms part of the placenta, then that can't have anything to do with the mare's sire, so wouldn't be what they were studying They are talking about the dam's sire's influence on the foal, such as the "large heart" gene, such as some stallions becoming broodmare sires
    I haven't read the study yet, is this an alternate theory to the gene for the large heart factor being on the X chromosome? Has the X factor not been mapped?



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wits End Eventing View Post
    They also mention epigenetics in the study, but don't really explain it or discuss any correlations. Epigenetics is fascinating. Epigenetics is the study of changes in gene expression or cellular phenotype caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence - for example, gene tagging caused by maternal exposure to starvation and/or extreme stress.

    A lot of this information came from studies of the Hongerwinter (Dutch Hunger Winter) during WWI and communist China’s failed "Great Leap Forward". Both resulted in mass starvation including the starvation of pregnant women. Children born during these periods had, when they grew up, higher rates of obesity and schizophrenia than their siblings born during other periods. Mothers who were in their third trimester during the peak period of starvation gave birth to low birth weight babies who grew up normally but had increased rates of diabetes. Mothers who were in their 1st and 2nd trimester during the peak period of starvation gave birth to normal weight babies BUT those babies later grew up and gave birth to babies with abnormally low birth weights. There are a number of other correlations, but interesting was that those babies AND their children showed ongoing effects from the starvation. In other words, the affected children were somehow passing this effect on to their progeny - hence the study of epigenetics which found that these were not changes in the actual nucleotides of DNA, but rather resulted from modifications such as DNA methylation and histone modification, both of which serve to regulate gene expression (bear with me non-science nerds....). Basically, these childrens genes were, in a way, "tagged". Six decades after the Hongerwinter, scientists can still see differences in the tagging of DNA of surviving children's descendants. These effects are felt to wear off over time, but unclear is how long it takes. Also, less severe changes in maternal environment have also been shown to have ongoing consequences. This science is all in it's infancy but could have profound impact on the understanding, prevention and treatment of obesity and mental health.

    SO, why would we care as horse breeders? My thoughts reading the paper and seeing the mention of epigenetics is that this could theoretically explain the times when you have two tall parents and get a 15.3 hand baby. What if 2 or 3 generations back, a mare in the horses pedigree was in a bad situation during the pregnancy and starved. This could theoretically effect her offspring for several generations. Of course this is ALL speculation, but interesting, and I look forward to continued developments in the field!!

    Sorry so geeky, I just can't help it.......And I hope it makes sense, because Dale is out mowing the fields, while I eat bon bons and look at Chrono, so I don't have him to proof it.... "A"
    I don't think size, in humans anyway, is one of the features "tagged" by maternal stress. The Dutch are the tallest people in the world.



  17. #17
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    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...l/468S20a.html

    Looks like there is a basis for concluding size is tagged for Humans but it was for those conceived during that time-I am assuming that pool is not so large as to affect the average overall populaion size for the Dutch?

    Interesting about impact (none?) of the recipient on the ETs at least in this regard.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...l/468S20a.html

    Looks like there is a basis for concluding size is tagged for Humans but it was for those conceived during that time-I am assuming that pool is not so large as to affect the average overall populaion size for the Dutch?
    All I get when I click on that link is a title. (It was slow to come up but now I do see a 2.99 offer to rent or 5.99 offer to buy the article with ReadCube Access, whatever that is. And an 18.00 offer to buy the article, full text and PDF.)

    From what I can gather the western part of Holland was the one most affected by the Hunger Winter -- 4.5 million people experienced hunger/ starvation during that time, about half of the population.
    Last edited by grayarabpony; Aug. 16, 2013 at 07:34 PM.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    I don't think size, in humans anyway, is one of the features "tagged" by maternal stress. The Dutch are the tallest people in the world.
    I think the evidence is pretty supportive of the fact that size is one of the things tagged epigenetically in humans; however, these epigentic changes only affected the population born during the Hongerwinter and their descendants so they would not necessarily affect the height of the overall Dutch population. There is a decent piece in Wikipedia about epigenetics, the article in Nature is just better.



  20. #20
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    Yes, but about half of the population was affected by the Hunger Winter. Wouldn't you think that would have affected the population as a whole then?

    It may be the case then that a statistically significant number of victims and their descendants had problems, but their numbers weren't great enough to affect the population overall.

    Does anyone have numbers from the study they can share here? (Percentage of victims and their descendants who had issues. Was reduced adult height one of the issues?)



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