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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul. 30, 2008
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    161

    Default Shamateurs....please police yourselves.

    So where do I even begin. I received an e-mail inadvertently detailing how the so called amateur would like their "credits" to be applied. This shamateur is an attorney who was stupid enough to send this from their work e-mail address. I've been trying to wrap my brain around this today and certainly wish I didn't have this knowledge. This is a winning shamateur showing in adults. Champion at several "A" shows winning prize money. I have nothing to do with and type of renumeration and the e-mail was sent second hand but there is NO DOUBT that someone has been cheating. Having a hard time with this. Would like to ignore but having a hard time with this....
    There are no stupid horses....just stupid people



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun. 26, 2012
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    676

    Default

    So the email was sent to you on accident?



  3. #3
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    Jul. 30, 2008
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    161

    Default

    Well a third party sent asking my opinion.....the whole message was there. There is obvious cheating...getting around the rules. Don't take money or barter for board, etc. if you are an amateur. My understanding of the Amateur rule is if you take any type of renumeration for riding, teaching....or take in trade for board, etc. you are in violation. I'd like to be able to teach lessons and ride as an amateur too! But, I'm not a cheater. I've had suspicions but was minding my own business. In light of the e-mail that I've been sent....they are no longer suspicions. I'm not an amateur so this is not sour grapes. But there are a lot of people behind this person in the state and zone standings that might have an issue. I can't get over the fact that this attorney was stupid enough to put this in writing. Don't think I would hire them for any of my business! Anyway...I will forward information to interested parties on the list of riders that are below them for the year in adult jumpers!
    There are no stupid horses....just stupid people



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun. 19, 1999
    Location
    Averill Park NY and Citra Fl
    Posts
    5,581

    Default

    ..and so it goes...there is one in my area who is "free leasing" the horse she is marketing for the owner (on FB)...one who rides all her mothers clients horses in the warm ups and one who does the teaching and training while her mother is off at the bigger shows...and then shows in the amateur adults...yeah, good luck getting them to police themselves...
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
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    Jul. 30, 2008
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    161

    Default

    I will forward to proper USEF authorities and let them handle.
    Last edited by supernatural; Aug. 16, 2013 at 07:53 AM.
    There are no stupid horses....just stupid people


    7 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov. 30, 2006
    Posts
    1,059

    Default

    What on earth would make a third party email forward a "legal document"? That's absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by supernatural View Post
    Well in light of the incriminating evidence that they sent from their work(attorney's) office I would say that would count as a legal document! I could not believe my eyes but definitely enough said in that e-mail to take them down as an amateur and reallocation of points and prize money. Really, really stupid. Wonder what the law firm will think about their server being used to send e-mails that admit basically fraudulent behavior. Wonder what VA Bar Association will think of that? This does not make me happy. Makes me sick. But, right is right and this person has brought this on themselves.



  7. #7
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    Jul. 30, 2008
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    161

    Default

    Stupidity...but it has happened. I couldn't believe it either. But then again...what part of "don't put that in writing" did the cheating attorney rider not get!
    There are no stupid horses....just stupid people



  8. #8
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    Jul. 30, 2008
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    161

    Default

    forwarding to proper officials
    Last edited by supernatural; Aug. 16, 2013 at 07:54 AM.
    There are no stupid horses....just stupid people


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov. 30, 2006
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    Default

    Well, it actually does matter. A forwarded email can easily be altered. And legal document does not equal evidence.

    You could report her to the local bar association but I'm pretty sure they don't care about such frivolity.

    Quote Originally Posted by supernatural View Post
    E-mails are admissible evidence in court. The person that sent me the e-mail was innocently asking my opinion on entirely another issue. Because the attorney did not send it direct to me does not really matter. It does exist! People have been convicted in a court of law over e-mails and text messages. I have an association with the person forwarding the e-mail from a business standpoint. They were asking about me what I thought about the money issue....not even thinking about the amateur status violation issue but that sticks out like a sore thumb. Anyway, I'll send to all other adult riders on the state list. Maybe one of them will file a complaint. Since I'm not an amateur it does not personally affect me but I don't like cheaters, cheating, etc! With the written evidence, it is a no brainer!



  10. #10
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    Jul. 30, 2008
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    161

    Default

    You are probably correct. I'm not an attorney so will just send to proper officials and let them handle as they see fit. In doing some research it seems the USEF will sometimes call and talk with someone if they have questions about their amateur status. That might be all it takes. When it comes to amateur status people are or they aren't. You either cheat or you don't. If you cheat, people will eventually find out. It is sad that someone will compromise their integrity so they can win in an adult jumper or adult hunter class.
    Last edited by supernatural; Aug. 16, 2013 at 08:01 AM. Reason: spelling
    There are no stupid horses....just stupid people



  11. #11
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    Jul. 30, 2008
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    Default

    So with all the IEA and college teams out there do people coach them and still ride as amateurs?



  12. #12
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    Nov. 13, 2009
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    4,612

    Default

    While I agree that this is a problem from a USEF standpoint, no law firm or bar association is going to give a hoot about it. No more than they would care if one of their lawyers violated a bowling association rule, lol. Law firms and the legal profession are really concerned with the actual law. Contrary to what some people think, USEF isn't a government body that can make actual LAWS. They are a governing body for a sport - that's all.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13
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    Jul. 30, 2008
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    Default

    I'm sure you are correct. Not really sure why anyone would want to take lessons from someone who cheats or have them as their coach. Now that's something to be proud of...having a coach at the ingate with you that you pay who rides in adult jumpers/hunters. Nice.....
    There are no stupid horses....just stupid people


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec. 29, 2007
    Posts
    975

    Default

    One of the "big" barns in our area has a daughter who is coaching according to their website, but never coaches at shows and maintains her amateur status. They have another mediocre coach who coaches at the shows. It blows my mind how everybody knows but nothing seems to be done about it. I can only guess that no one wants to tangle with the parents/barn owners as they have a lot of money and aren't afraid to bully their way around if they need to.
    "Those who know the least often know it the loudest."



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep. 2, 2005
    Location
    Upstate NY
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    12,766

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Equine Studies View Post
    It blows my mind how everybody knows but nothing seems to be done about it.
    Nothing will be done until someone grows a pair and reports the issues.
    It would seem with them advertising it would be a pretty open and shut case.

    USEF does not go around hunting for shamateurs to pounce on.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct. 6, 2002
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
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    16,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by supernatural View Post
    So where do I even begin. I received an e-mail inadvertently detailing how the so called amateur would like their "credits" to be applied. This shamateur is an attorney who was stupid enough to send this from their work e-mail address. I've been trying to wrap my brain around this today and certainly wish I didn't have this knowledge. This is a winning shamateur showing in adults. Champion at several "A" shows winning prize money. I have nothing to do with and type of renumeration and the e-mail was sent second hand but there is NO DOUBT that someone has been cheating. Having a hard time with this. Would like to ignore but having a hard time with this....
    Can you explain this better? I don't follow. Here's what I get from your post (my questions in bold)...

    Someone forwarded you an email. That forwarded email is between a "shamateur," using her law firm email address and _________________. In that email between Shamateur and _________________, the Shamateur asks for credits to be applied.

    What kinds of credits?
    Credits for what?
    Who is the other person on the email?


    This shamateur shows in the adults and wins prize money.

    Why is this, standing alone, a problem? An amateur can win prize money.

    I truly need a better explanation of this to understand. Where is the rulebreaking here? The "credits?" Like crediting $30 off board for every lesson she gives or something?

    In unrelated news, I am not sure someone using a law firm email address turns an email into a "legal document" but then again I am not sure in what context that "term of art" is being used. If I run a photography studio and I send an email from my studio account it doesn't make the email a photo
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


    3 members found this post helpful.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May. 5, 2009
    Location
    Location: Indiana, but my heart is in Zone II
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    Default

    ^^^^ I agree. This gives me a headache. The shammy sent an email to her "boss" to have credits applied for teaching? And the "boss" sent you the email? For what purpose?

    Tell the "boss" or whoever forwarded the email, that she needs to tell the ammy that she gets no remuneration as long as she's an ammy.

    Or if it bugs you this much, forward it to USEF (which I think you did).

    I'm so used to people skirting the rules, I am almost ambivalent (not that it's right, you just get numb). I tend to mind my own business but if I had hard proof, I *may* call out the ammy, or minimally the enabling trainer. I'd forward "hard proof" to the USEF.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2001
    Location
    Fairfax
    Posts
    1,856

    Default

    I hate cheating amateurs as much as everyone else. However, I would not call a mis-addressed email passed around multiple times hard evidence. Easy to fake. USEF generally has a very hard time acting on this type of information. They might send a warning letter and hopefully that would discourage the person, but I wouldn't be surprised if USEF did nothing.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun. 19, 1999
    Location
    Averill Park NY and Citra Fl
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    5,581

    Default

    Worse than the "shamateurs" are the real professionals that stand at the ingate (train) the shamateurs at the bigger shows and know full well that they are cheating. Is the money really worth risking a vacation? Or, are you just afraid to tell them you won't help them cheat?
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov. 4, 2011
    Posts
    96

    Default

    I might be wrong but a person has to file a protest at the show where the shamateur is shamateuring and be willing to be named and "testify." You cannot protest anonymously as far as I know and have the burden of providing proof of sham.

    In other words, USEF members have to police each other as opposed to the USEF doing the policing. No one wants that drama and hassle because ultimately it means going up against a BNT, owners and the barn's other riders. Guess that's why the USEF doesn't want to do it!

    It's easier to just accept that all classes are "open." It's not fair but such is life.



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