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  1. #81
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    Ditto, in many ways the practice of law is being a professional writer and creativity is not only involved but makes the difference between good and bad lawyering.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    What is the specialty field? What is it you want to do?

    Work at a big firm? Prestige of the school may outweigh a specialized program.
    Nope.

    Teach at a law school? Uh, better just call it a day with Yale and be on law review
    Nah.

    Clerk for SCOTUS? Ditto
    Definitely not.

    Work for a small firm doing an area of practice that's pretty broad/not hugely uncommon? I'd go to the best VALUE school in the area I wanted to land
    That sounds better.

    Start a practice in small city Y doing your specialty which no one else does? I'd suggest going to the regional school with the best contacts/program in the area and some expertise in that area
    This is much more realistic as I am married and we have a farm and a child, etc...

    Work in the Hague? Well, I suppose if you find the one school with the ICJ training program and summer clerkships, you'd better go there even if the rest of us have never heard of it
    Nope.

    It all depends!
    I do have MGIB that I haven't used yet. I am not sure how much that will help. I have to call the Veteran's Office at the college, if I get to the point of actually applying.

    Thank you for asking this question, OP!
    Where the short cows roam.

    War veteran



  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Discobold View Post
    P.S. To the poster who suggested lawyers aren't creative, I was mortally offended See infographic above
    I've read disclosure statements I know lawyers can be very creative. My implication was that artists aren't real good with rules, procedures and details.



  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by microbovine View Post
    I do have MGIB that I haven't used yet. I am not sure how much that will help. I have to call the Veteran's Office at the college, if I get to the point of actually applying.

    Thank you for asking this question, OP!
    What I was trying to convey is that no one can give very good advice without knowing the specialty, the schools, and your desired career path. There is no one-size-fits answer about where to go to school.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbtoo View Post
    I've read disclosure statements I know lawyers can be very creative. My implication was that artists aren't real good with rules, procedures and details.
    Neither are some lawyers
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by SendenHorse View Post
    If you do law I highly suggest what others are saying-- a dual degree with a science PhD will really help and patent law is really hot. Especially in biotech, computers, and chemical engineering.
    Ooh.... patent law. Yum. That was my plan for a minute while I was an undergrad. As a PhD in something else, I have paid attention to the evolution of biotech patents since forever. Incredibly interesting... but also the PTO and courts made some bone-head decisions about handling gene patents a while back.

    In any case, do you need a PhD in a science or will a BS do as someone suggested earlier?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  7. #87
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    I totally agree with what people have said about not going to law school unless you satisfy certain criteria. I am about to start my 3L year at a school that was top 100 when I started, but has since dropped to barely top 150. I had to take out substantial student loans and already have nightmares about how I am going to pay them back, much less ever be able to afford a horse again. I would not recommend anyone put themselves in this situation. That said, I really enjoy law school. I have met some amazing peers and professors and really enjoy learning about the law. Intellectual property/patent law was my main focus in applying to law school and has proven to be a niche that I thoroughly enjoy. I don't regret law school, I'm just f***ing terrified of what is going to happen when I get out .

    So for those of us that are past the point of no return, any advice?



  8. #88
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    A phd is not required nor even is a bs to take the patent bar. You simply need to have taken the required courses--- your ultimate degree can be in something non-scientific. Engineering counts too, not just "science."
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  9. #89
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    More power to someone who, as a second career, has the stamina to go back and get a science BS degree/ course work and a PHD and 3 years of law school. Even assuming some joint degree time that is nigh on 8+ years. You are a BOSS if you have the stamina for that!!!
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    A phd is not required nor even is a bs to take the patent bar. You simply need to have taken the required courses--- your ultimate degree can be in something non-scientific. Engineering counts too, not just "science."
    The feedback I received when I looked into this option was that, while a PhD is not a requirement to take the patent bar, those without the degree will be competing for jobs with all of those patent lawyers who DO have PhDs in science/engineering, and there are lots of them out there. Since I only have a Master's degree in a science field, I dropped the idea of patent law very quickly.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #91
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    The demand for good patent lawyers is still pretty strong. It also depends on your field. There are many chemists. Fewer aerospace engineers. Fewer nanotechnology chem-bio microengineers

    A PHD is obviously better than none but prospects are fine for patent lawyers in MANY areas even without. Most patent lawyers I know with engineering backgrounds, for example, don't have PHDs. They are highly in demand.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by GotSpots View Post
    In short, unless you have a burning desire to be a lawyer and unless you can go to law school debt free, I wouldn't recommend going.
    I get it, from an economic point of view. But I hope to God that we don't limit legal scholars and justices to those who were rich enough to go to law school on their family's dime.

    Case in point: I met an ex-drug addict lesbian house painter who apparently had blown the socks off the LSAT and also one of her undergrad profs who knew good law school candidates when he saw them. She thought constitutional law was fascinating.

    I want working-class, ex-addict lesbians interpreting our Constitution in addition to the heir-to-all-they-survey white males of the world. Don't you?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    6 members found this post helpful.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    The demand for good patent lawyers is still pretty strong. It also depends on your field. There are many chemists. Fewer aerospace engineers. Fewer nanotechnology chem-bio microengineers

    A PHD is obviously better than none but prospects are fine for patent lawyers in MANY areas even without. Most patent lawyers I know with engineering backgrounds, for example, don't have PHDs. They are highly in demand.
    Molecular biology?
    Where the short cows roam.

    War veteran



  14. #94
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    The only two lawyers I know like what they do and have done quite well.

    My cousin-in-law is in his early 30's, was a CPA for a couple of years, went to Northwestern Law, and has worked for a big firm in Chicago since his graduation in 2007.

    A friend's daughter graduated from USC's law school 10 years ago and has worked for NASCAR ever since. She does commercial contracts.
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01



  15. #95
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    I don't know enough about scientific fields to split fine hairs but if you'd be viable for a research position in your field sans PHD you're probably competitive as a patent lawyer writing or litigating those sorts of patents.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  16. #96
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    Let's just say you hear very few patent lawyers generally lamenting the economy. Fewer than most disciplines. PHD or no, scientist/engineer lawyers are harder to come by.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    A phd is not required nor even is a bs to take the patent bar. You simply need to have taken the required courses--- your ultimate degree can be in something non-scientific. Engineering counts too, not just "science."
    Right.... but in practice (for getting a job writing effective patents for whacky products and processes because you understand the science** and not being a doofus*** about what those things are and creating bad precedents) do you actually need a masters or doctorate-level understanding of the science?

    Here's the anecdote that goes with all those asterisks.

    Some of the early history of gene patenting had to do with the awesome metaphysical question about whether "a gene" usually described as a length of DNA was a material thing (patentable) or information (not eligible for patent protection reasons having to do with its being natural and not an invention, and the details of what patent law will protect).

    Anywhoo.... the PTO (patent and trademark office) did allow patenting of DNA at some crucial points in the 1980s because at the time, it employed many chemical engineers and very few biology types.

    The problem (of great frustration to me) is that to chemical engineers, the structure of a molecule is the relevant part....so they interpreted DNA through that lens.

    Meanwhile, everyone taking high school biology on up was taught to think of a bit of DNA constituting a gene as not relevant for its structure, so much as the sequence of bases in it. The standard analogy used in textbooks since the 1960s and 1970s described DNA as something like ticker tape that carried information between generations, was read in mitochondria and such.

    In short, to scientists, to the Human Genome Project people and to cherry-pickers in Big Pharma like that bad boy, Myriad genetics (which tried to monopolize the breast cancer genes), DNA Was Always Information and its material form far less interesting.

    IIRC, the Supreme Court recently closed this gap.... or at least disallowed the patenting of human genes. But I don't know if they dealt with the information/material problem. And the fact that that huge, obvious loophole just stood there for 25 years has substantially influenced the way the Human Genome Project has and has not borne fruit for you who paid the taxes to support it.

    Some people need to know some science and some law.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  18. #98
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    I know many patent lawyers in biglaw. Can think of maybe 1 out of 20 or so w a PHD and he went to undergrad in a foreign country. If you have science chops, you have chops.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  19. #99
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    My 25 year old daughter starts law school on Monday. She is a paralegal now and has worked in law offices since she was 18, doing whatever and working her way up. She has put herself through school, some employers paid for some classes, some not. Worked while she was getting her Bachelors as well.
    She has ended up in estate law, it just kind of happened, but now she likes it.

    Her eyes are wide open and she has a job promised with the firm she was just currently working for (until today) when she is done, and any free time she has while in school.

    She's pretty excited about it, and I'm incredibly proud of her.
    We're spending our money on horses and bourbon. The rest we're just wasting.
    www.dleestudio.com



  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    I know many patent lawyers in biglaw. Can think of maybe 1 out of 20 or so w a PHD and he went to undergrad in a foreign country. If you have science chops, you have chops.
    Interesting. All of the patent lawyers who I know in Boston are found in relatively small boutique law firms, and they all have Phds.

    Not to mislead the poster who asked, I think that if you have the right background/connections to get into biglaw then you can probably practice patent law there without a Phd. But you can go to a Sardine (according to Discobold's Above the Law shark week chart) law school nights, with a Phd in something like genetic engineering and be hired by a boutique patent firm and do very, very well.
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller



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