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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fessy's Mom View Post
    I just really find it hard to believe that when she's only selling (and no, I don't dispute that - she even has changed the wording on the website where she now says "bail - aka buy" when referring to sending funds for a horse) these horses for a few hundred dollars a piece
    Check the prices again, esp with all the added on inflated fees [Vetting for $80 that costs $40?]
    Quote Originally Posted by Fessy's Mom View Post
    that she could possibly be making any money if she is keeping these horses until they sell.
    So how do you think she makes her living? How do they pay their mortgage, and for their cell phones to send those pouty selfies and manis and dye jobs and all that they clearly do spend someone's money on?

    It's no one business... unless she's scamming and skimming off the horses sales. How does one find out whether that is the case without asking?

    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    But Christy is not the one keeping or feeding them. She has NO expenses regarding these horses.
    Exactly the horses are on Brians lot and dime.
    And those who do attend NH know that he pays a fraction of what he and his cuz charge people through their 501c3.

    Lots of rescues go to sales and save, go and take horses from those who can no longer afford to care for them properly, and take in those who are abused or neglected [ie all the types at risk to sell to slaughter]...
    Why people can not go to those sources and 'save' while paying alot less or at least getting a horse they will know is suitable and QT'd and evaluated and rehab'd... or why people quibble when those rescue who do all that before adopting out charge adoption fees only a few hundred over what AC4H/Christy/Brian charges... well that's a head scratcher.
    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/


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  2. #22
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    I have posted on this organization in the past. Sorry to those who may have read it. This is a link to our dealings with them,
    http://gumtreestables.com/storyofdoublesrescue.html
    The emails are posted exactly as received from Christy. Make your own judgment.
    This outfit is not far from us and I have been told by very respected people that live in the area and have know these people for many years that in their opinion everything is not on the up and up. The FBI has been in touch with me.
    Some if not all of the links posted maybe out of date by now. This took place 2 years ago.
    I have had several people call me with their negative experience a couple of them were very disturbing. No one has called giving a positive spin.


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  3. #23
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    So, has your friend taken temps on those 2 new ponies? I've got 20 bucks that says they've got strangles, like mine did. Hope she's QT'ing them.


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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    So, has your friend taken temps on those 2 new ponies? I've got 20 bucks that says they've got strangles, like mine did. Hope she's QT'ing them.
    Yeah, I was worried about putting them in stalls when they're snotty and just came from the auction, basically. I hope she is going to quarantine them for a few weeks and wash the stalls down well afterward.
    The Trials and Jubilations of a Twenty-Something Re-rider
    Happy owner of Kieran the mostly-white-very-large-not-pony.



  5. #25
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    I agree with OP. Anyway to save any horses is good with me. And I have no problem with the sellers/brokers/kill buyers/christy making a profit on horses if the horses are saved from slaughter.

    some of the Cothers who supported a rescue in my state for years were taken advantage of by the woman that runs that rescue. Taking in sick or dying horses and raising thousands of dollars is what bothers me about "rescues." Brokers selling horses that can be ridden is a good thing, in my opinion.

    I donated to Christy in the past when a Cother, who has now split with her, used to promote and speak for AC4H. Anytime money is involved, and control of money, people fall out. And the horses suffer for it. The whole idea, I always thought, was to save horses and prevent backyard breeding.


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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    I agree with OP. Anyway to save any horses is good with me. And I have no problem with the sellers/brokers/kill buyers/christy making a profit on horses if the horses are saved from slaughter.
    Money that the dealer than puts in his pocket and spends on gas to ship other horses to slaughter or to buy those who do not get put onto the rescue pages?

    What about the suspicion that the horses marketed through the rescue are the ones he can't ship to slaughter for one reason or another [he does not, per shipping docs, ship minis, ponies, or greys] such as too thin, too sick, etc?
    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/


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  7. #27
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    All new horses coming in should be QTed. Length of time depending on where they came from. I took in a friend's horse for a few months while she was out of state, she rented a trailer to bring it over. I QTed it, expecting a short term for that. Not sure if the previous horse in the trailer or the last show she brought it too caused it, but it had the snots. So while not always a high risk, any horse coming in has some risk. But any horse coming from any sales barn, dealer barn or auction should have a minimum 4 week QT no matter what. A sick horse...strangles, shipping fever, whatever....is expected from certain places. Even "clean" sales barns. Animals coming and going, usually stressed from shipping, moving to new places, seeing new animals, etc are breeding grounds for all sorts of nasties you don't want spreading around. I'd never assume "bad business" from any dealer or auction horse being sick. If there are illegal or shady issues with them, sick horses aren't it. I'm amazed at anything coming out of a decent t large auction or dealer barn *not* sick.

    Lots of rescues go to sales and save, go and take horses from those who can no longer afford to care for them properly, and take in those who are abused or neglected [ie all the types at risk to sell to slaughter]...
    Why people can not go to those sources and 'save' while paying alot less or at least getting a horse they will know is suitable and QT'd and evaluated and rehab'd... or why people quibble when those rescue who do all that before adopting out charge adoption fees only a few hundred over what AC4H/Christy/Brian charges... well that's a head scratcher.
    I can't speak for others, but for myself I won't adopt. I'll support some area rescues that I know are legit and responsible, but I won't adopt from them either. Foster, but not adopt.
    A horse is an expensive pet/hobby. I may or may not keep a horse as a forever horse, depends on the horse. And while I have a horse here, I've usually tended to have fun working with it and doing all sorts of new stuff with it. Which does tend to increase it's value too. If I pick up a "kick and go, pull and stop" adoption for $800 and a couple years later we've grown bored with one another but the horse is now doing courses, has changes, does trails alone or in company, knows lateral work, etc...I'm not handing it off to someone else for free or for what I paid for it. If I foster I'll do that for free. Semantics maybe, but that's just me. I also may want to show it or have someone else show it. Or use it for lessons. Many adoption contracts prohibit that.
    So *for me* adopting from a rescue isn't a good choice.

    I do see adoption as a very good option for those who tend to have every horse (or only wants 1 or 2 or boards, etc) be a forever horse. And I do think it's misguided for so many who do buy a dealer/ac4h horse to do it so they can feel like or say they've rescued directly instead of adopting an already rescued horse. But it's not a good option for those who may end up selling the horse someday.

    As for a kill buyer making a profit on something that was advertised as a rescue? Doesn't bother me. Kill buyers don't do what they do if there isn't a profit anyway. Not to mention that the majority of kill buyers aren't equine-ignorant and those all resell for a profit anything they purchase to a private buyer if they can. Meat prices are nowhere near the profit of private sales. And even calling all kill buyers greedy people who only care about money means that they're going the money making route as much as possible. Are they all 100% honest with private sales? Doubt it. But if they can sell private and make a high percent profit, they will. Whether someone else markets for them or not. In the end, the same exact number of horses will go for meat whether they sell private or not. They ship according to orders, not according to supply.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


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  8. #28
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    I am not supporting Christie nor her group at all..but there is a bottom line...If she saves ONE HORSE and makes ONE MILLION dollars on it..she has still saved that ONE HORSE...The fact that other horses go to slaughter is not the point.

    Angela..this is where you and your little group lose me...(okay..on most of your points)...you don't save horses yourself..but you speak against anyone who does and makes money.

    Well...GG, Paradise and DEFHR have made hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars and travel all over the U.S. and other countries..

    GG advertised a horse as beaten..and it turned out it had CANCER on the face. They did not return any of the donations they received under false pretenses.

    Christy and her group have saved many Saddlebreds on TROT...As I posted before..I called it a SALE and not a rescue when it was for age unknown Saddlebred gelding and no DNA or registration and the price would be $700

    But the horse and many others were saved and went to Saddlebred homes.

    A family can't save every orphan in India but they can adopt ONE CHILD...and save and educate it.

    Adoption agencies are totally corrupt but that does not matter to the child saved.

    I expect the same could be said about the horse. I just wouldn't want to do business with her...but she still has some big time ASB supporters on Facebook.


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
    I agree with OP. Anyway to save any horses is good with me. And I have no problem with the sellers/brokers/kill buyers/christy making a profit on horses if the horses are saved from slaughter...

    ...The whole idea, I always thought, was to save horses and prevent backyard breeding.
    Seriously? You don't see that "saving" that one horse from AC4H is actually paying for SEVERAL others to go straight to slaughter? This isn't saving horses; it's just the opposite.

    And it has not a thing to do with backyard breeding.
    Equus Keepus Brokus



  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    A horse is an expensive pet/hobby.
    One reason why adopting from a rescue, who will take the horse back if/when you break it/it breaks you/ it goes lame/ it gets sick/ you get sick/ you get tired of it/ you can't afford it any more/ you want a different colored one/.... is smart, IMO.

    Every pancake has 2 sides.
    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/


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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fessy's Mom View Post
    danceronice - thank you. And regarding the rescues with all their requirements for being "qualified" to adopt, I totally agree. And I also did not follow the logic regarding filling the truck. There is not an endless supply of horses going to the killer buyer.

    And do you really want them all to go on the truck? I mean, you all complain about their unfair and deceptive business practices, but what is the solution? If not for my friend, I do believe these two ponies would have been slaughtered. And if you who do not support AC4H convince everyone else not to take any of these horses, won't they all go on the truck? Do you honestly want that? Like what, that would show em?
    They can't *all* go on the truck. Just what they need to fill their contract with the SH. Just like they can't all go to the bad man, enough will always go to the bad man to fill the contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fessy's Mom View Post
    To luvmytbs - From this post that someone made: ""Some horses get bought, some don't, the majority of the ones being bought were up for sale because they knew they could make a buck off them and therefore never were in any danger of shipping." This to me makes it sound like they would be kept until they sold.
    Do you honestly think all the horses they buy, they buy to send to slaughter? C'mon. Seriously? All those ponies, all those greys, all those minis, all those horses that hold enough value to be resold as projects? You honestly think that he'd be buying as many horses as he does if he didn't have AC4H hawking horses all over the internet for him? A good many of them are bought specifically to be resold, with the selling point being they are at the bad man's feed lot and the truck is coming. Horse trading it is, but horse rescue it ain't. They've just got a particularly effective marketing scheme that the bleeding hearts can't quite wrap their minds around.

    Nothing wrong with him being a horse trader and AC4H being his broker (so long as they act within the confines of the law which is highly debatable), but let's get real and start calling a spade a spade. They are horse traders, and people who get their horses are buying from a horse trader, not rescuing.


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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    I am not supporting Christie nor her group at all..but there is a bottom line...If she saves ONE HORSE and makes ONE MILLION dollars on it..she has still saved that ONE HORSE...The fact that other horses go to slaughter is not the point.

    Angela..this is where you and your little group lose me...(okay..on most of your points)...you don't save horses yourself.....
    And this is where you lose me... what do you think you know about what anyone else does/does not do?
    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaitedGloryRider View Post
    They can't *all* go on the truck. Just what they need to fill their contract with the SH. Just like they can't all go to the bad man, enough will always go to the bad man to fill the contract.



    Do you honestly think all the horses they buy, they buy to send to slaughter? C'mon. Seriously? All those ponies, all those greys, all those minis, all those horses that hold enough value to be resold as projects? You honestly think that he'd be buying as many horses as he does if he didn't have AC4H hawking horses all over the internet for him? A good many of them are bought specifically to be resold, with the selling point being they are at the bad man's feed lot and the truck is coming. Horse trading it is, but horse rescue it ain't. They've just got a particularly effective marketing scheme that the bleeding hearts can't quite wrap their minds around.

    Nothing wrong with him being a horse trader and AC4H being his broker (so long as they act within the confines of the law which is highly debatable), but let's get real and start calling a spade a spade. They are horse traders, and people who get their horses are buying from a horse trader, not rescuing.
    I'm remembering a Suffolk Punch or something a while ago... they got him cheap, bumped up the price and he was supposed to be going to slaughter?
    The $6000 horse that Xty contacted the former owner about, then when she could only come up with $4k, Xty said it shipped?
    Yeah, those cases are believable.
    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/


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  14. #34
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    I'm 99% that that wasn't a Suffolk Punch. Just because it looks like one doesn't mean it IS one.



  15. #35
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    One reason why adopting from a rescue, who will take the horse back if/when you break it/it breaks you/ it goes lame/ it gets sick/ you get sick/ you get tired of it/ you can't afford it any more/ you want a different colored one/.... is smart, IMO.

    Every pancake has 2 sides.
    Agree 100%. However if the adopter decides they want a different colored one and give back a rescue, they probably won't be able to adopt again. Understandably. I definitely think adopting is a better option for many people, most of those probably being the type of ac4h buyer that thinks they're rescuing anyway. A knee-jerk emotional decision maker is apt to not be a long term home anyway.

    Every pancake does have 2 sides. For me, the fluffy middle is when folks increase the value of the animal through sweaty saddle pads, experience and time...they can make a profit on it if they didn't adopt it in the first place. I know that doesn't sit well with the "keep every horse forever" crowd. But if nobody ever sold horses or flipped horses...lots of other owners wouldn't have any to buy.

    Do you honestly think all the horses they buy, they buy to send to slaughter? C'mon. Seriously? All those ponies, all those greys, all those minis, all those horses that hold enough value to be resold as projects? You honestly think that he'd be buying as many horses as he does if he didn't have AC4H hawking horses all over the internet for him? A good many of them are bought specifically to be resold, with the selling point being they are at the bad man's feed lot and the truck is coming. Horse trading it is, but horse rescue it ain't. They've just got a particularly effective marketing scheme that the bleeding hearts can't quite wrap their minds around.

    Nothing wrong with him being a horse trader and AC4H being his broker (so long as they act within the confines of the law which is highly debatable), but let's get real and start calling a spade a spade. They are horse traders, and people who get their horses are buying from a horse trader, not rescuing.
    Agree with this, too.

    I think the popularity of ac4h is the exposure. The fact that soooo many people can see not just photos but also videos of horses that they think may go to slaughter or are just owned by a bad, scary man. When they can see the horses in pics and moving around, their bad feelings about slaughter or kill buyers are now more than feelings. It becomes more real to them and they think they see all sorts of emotions in the horses' eyes and then can't walk away from a horse they "know." And they'll make an uninformed and uneducated emotional purchase...whether they can afford it or not.

    And then there's the people who think auctions alone are abuse and are saving anything that comes from an auction.

    Not to mention the extreme and excessive definition of "rescue" these days. In the internet world, everyone and their grandmothers want to be "rescuers" and the internet now makes it possible for them. Or so they think. Just look at the posts and users on this BB...so many think if they buy a horse off of Craig's List it's an automatic rescue. Or if they buy any horse for any reason...it's a rescue because the former owner wasn't a Forever Owner and/or might turn the horse out/keep it in or use saddles with/without trees or what-have-you.

    So yes, there's a definite disconnect with the fantasy-laden society of horse women/girls and actual reality. Which makes places like ac4h hugely popular. If a place like ac4h exploits that...it might seem underhanded or scummy to some. And to others it's business. As long as the actual transactions are legal is what matters. The emotional responses good or bad to the business in general are the onus of those that feel that way.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    I'm 99% that that wasn't a Suffolk Punch. Just because it looks like one doesn't mean it IS one.
    I believe there were papers or something. I was as doubtful as you.
    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    Agree 100%. However if the adopter decides they want a different colored one and give back a rescue, they probably won't be able to adopt again. Understandably. I definitely think adopting is a better option for many people, most of those probably being the type of ac4h buyer that thinks they're rescuing anyway. A knee-jerk emotional decision maker is apt to not be a long term home anyway.

    Every pancake does have 2 sides. For me, the fluffy middle is when folks increase the value of the animal through sweaty saddle pads, experience and time...they can make a profit on it if they didn't adopt it in the first place. I know that doesn't sit well with the "keep every horse forever" crowd. But if nobody ever sold horses or flipped horses...lots of other owners wouldn't have any to buy.
    Real rescues also increase the value of the animals they take in with sweaty saddle pads and other valuable things like farrier care, vetting, feeding, worming, etc.... and yet people balk when they ask an adoption fee that is a fraction of what AC4H asks...

    And you said it
    'As long as the actual transactions are legal is what matters'
    Seems the FBI and a judge who signed the warrant have good reason to believe there is something or several somethings that are not.
    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberty View Post
    Yeah, but that $400, $500, on up to thousands of dollars (yes, I've seen AC4H tag auction horses with prices as high as $6K) someone shells out to AC4H to "rescue" (buy) that ONE horse from AC4H finances the purchase of several/many others who go directly on the slaughter truck. So, in essence, someone "saving" a horse is actually providing the money for SEVERAL others that get slaughtered that no one ever sees.
    Again, you have a logic failure: is someone who is going to spend $500 on one pony from any rescue, dubious or otherwise (as some of those "adoption fees" are pretty steep at "real" rescues), if they do not spend that $500, instead going to go to the sale and buy five or six if they don't? No, because the overwhelming majority of buyers are not ready to take on that many horses. Heck, if they gave that $500 to a so-called "real" rescue, are THEY going out and getting five or six from the ale? No. They don't have infinite space or resources either. (And even if they did, are the adoption fees going to be $50 or $500? Somehow I doubt very much they'll be $50.)

    And if the broker they get the horses from uses the money to buy horses to ship...well, that depends on whether the money he got from them gave him a big enough profit margin or not, or does he make enough from them he doesn't haul as many loads because he makes more money flipping them to people trying to 'save the horsies?' Camelot figured out THAT business model and they don't ship nearly as much themselves because they don't have to. They're making bank by selling off the horses people want via the internet. A broker is in it to make money. Gas is expensive. Selling marked-up horses (and they absolutely should be marked up from their auction price because they aren't eating air and they weren't free) to people who'll come pick them up is going to net you more than shipping multiple loads. Unless people scream "Don't buy from brokers because ZOMG THEY MAKE A PROFIT THEY USE TO BUY MORE HORSES". Well, yeah, they want to make a profit. Because they're not morons and that is why one has a business. And if they buy more horses with any redeeming value, they'll sell THOSE to 'rescuers' for a bigger net payday than hauling a trailer load to Canada or Mexico.


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  19. #39
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    I think the basic premise is a good one. I love the idea of marketing and re-selling slaughter-bound horses to a wider audience.

    What I have a problem with is:

    a) Advertising under the umbrella of a not-for-profit 501(c)3 "rescue" when the program is clearly about profit.
    b) Collecting "bail" money on horses, yet shipping them off to sales barns/slaughter anyway because the full purchase price was not met or a home was not found in time.
    c) Inflating the price of horses purchased at meat prices to make a profit, especially when you're trying to market yourself as a "rescue."
    d) Lying in general, not to mention falsifying information and paperwork.

    The whole program could be done right. I truly believe it could maintain altruistic motives and generate a sufficient profit to stay afloat without the excessive fraud. Heck, horse dealers have been doing the same thing for years, but without the "rescue" undertones.
    Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO


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