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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    And erm, I hate to point that out, but in other parts of the world, beginners jump 3 feet as the norm....
    ...What's your point?
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris


    3 members found this post helpful.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
    ...What's your point?
    Your OMG, if you can't do that, shut up is not really all that impressive.

    But then again, I don't know a lot of people who would be caught dead in a style competition over fences unless it's to school the horse or the rider.
    Because, well, it all depends on how well the judges like you, not how you actually perform.

    BTW, even with a 'kindly' thrown in, telling people to STFU is still snark.

    Now I will have my first cup of coffee, maybe I come back later and edit...maybe.


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Your OMG, if you can't do that, shut up is not really all that impressive.

    But then again, I don't know a lot of people who would be caught dead in a style competition over fences unless it's to school the horse or the rider.
    Because, well, it all depends on how well the judges like you, not how you actually perform.

    BTW, even with a 'kindly' thrown in, telling people to STFU is still snark.

    Now I will have my first cup of coffee, maybe I come back later and edit...maybe.
    Oh Alagirl...

    I think you missed my point. And you appear to have some sort of chip on your shoulder with regard to the hunters...

    My point was that the OP is trolling.

    As I said, all disciplines have their positives and negatives. And maybe, just maybe, instead of snarking about whose discipline is the bestest, we should just focus on being the rider we want to be.

    You stop snarking at the hunters, because you obviously know nothing about the discipline. And I'll refrain from snarking at the eventers, as I've only competed in one event at the BN level, and so have no business commenting on their sport.

    Like I said, there are good and bad riders in every discipline and until we're all perfect (whatever that may mean...), you really have no business snarking at somebody else. Go ride your horse.

    Constructive criticism is one thing, but this thread...geez.
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris


    18 members found this post helpful.

  4. #24
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    What's the point in getting so upset about it? Opinions are opinions. If I got bent out of shape every time I heard the gaited horse chair seat drunken hillbilly horse abuser stereotype I'd have a stomach full of bleeding ulcers by now

    It does wonderful things for your blood pressure to be able to laugh stuff like this off. If sticking your butts in the air over a jump makes you happy and wins you a ribbon I say fly that freak flag and be proud no matter what other people say.


    15 members found this post helpful.

  5. #25
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    I'm going to give several reasons for the difference in position (Note- I say *difference* not *flaws*). The nay-sayers will either pass by this post in order to continue being unnecessarily rude, condescending, and ignorant, or they will attempt to point out every minor flaw in this post or make ridiculous comparisons (This BNT can do it on this one horse in this one picture, so everyone else should too!!!!!). But, for those who are actually interested in discussing, here's an incomplete list of my theories....


    1) Mistakes/flaws are going to happen- It's a part of learning! In different disciplines, there's different severity of flaws. In eventing, jumping up the neck is stupid and dangerous and likely to get you hurt over terrain, banks, etc. I've heard many BNTS make comments such as "you don't fall off because you're too fall back". Similarly, having to much contact/pulling on the mouth over the jump is bad, but not the end of the world. The over all goal is be in a pace where you can stay in the tack should something happen, even if it creates an ugly jump.

    In hunters, you DO NOT get left behind and DO NOT pull on your horses mouth in the air. So, when in doubt, it's better to give a huge release and jump up the neck, then risk getting left behind. The goal is to get the horse jumping well and free to use their head and neck, not worry about a downhill landing or 2 strides to a ditch

    2. Different paces- Hunters come to the jump at a MUCH slower pace. Try sometime cantering your eventer at a SLOW pace with the head lower towards a jump. BTW, you can't use your hand very much to balance. It is SO hard to wait for the horse to put you in position and STILL to keep a good position, especially since above all else you can't get left behind or interfere with your horses jump

    Now pick up some speed, get some good half halts to get the horse really up right, and do the same thing. Notice how you can just put your feet on the dash and let the horse's jump put you in the right position.

    3) Different jump. Partially as a result of #2- Hunters take off further away, jump slowly through the air, practically pausing mid-air to give that amazing back cracking, knee-to eye ball look. Eventers jump at faster speeds, often giving a flatter, faster jump. Stdium/Jumpers get a ton of power and get right to the base, resulting in a hard, powerful jump that lets you put the feet on the dash and stay back a bit

    4) Different goals- Hunters want their horse to be soft, flowing, steady, with no bid change for the jump. There's no need for land and GO or land and TURN, so the 'duck butt' as you rudely called it, is actually a soft flowing position, encouraging the horse to land soft and canter away without a big change in rhythm.

    5)Making the horse get its knees even- Many horse like to lean in the air or drop one toe/knee just a touch. As a rider, putting more weight on one side can help the horse jump straighter in it's body and make it snaps its knees evenly

    6) Different timing for the jump photo- No really, it's true. Ideal hunter photos are taken earlier, so the looks really round with tight knees. If your in 'perfect' position at this point, your screwed as the horse finishes its jump. Eventing/jumper photos are often taken further over the jump as the bascule starts to flatten
    Heck, here's a photo of Beezie at takeoff. Looking at this, you could argue she's ahead, but I guarantee she'll look perfect over the top of the jump! http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_icldJyWP_-...reme+Brule.JPG


    30 members found this post helpful.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Because, well, it all depends on how well the judges like you, not how you actually perform.
    Um, "how you actually perform" has a lot to do with "how well the judges like you."

    If you cross canter your course with the horse tense and bitted up in an elevator bit, leave long to three and chip out on the last one, you can still go clear in eventing but you will not be near the ribbons in the hunters.

    "Steering," "pace control," "relaxation," and "what lead you're on" is part of "how well you actually perform" in some disciplines.


    17 members found this post helpful.

  7. #27
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    Duck butt?
    I always thought it looked like a cat in heat, myself.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


    16 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
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    Hmm.. maybe its not about the best round but who has the cutest butt? Show off your fannies could be why the jackets are getting shorter?
    I think I need my morning coffee.
    M
    Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from behind, or a fool from any direction


    9 members found this post helpful.

  9. #29
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    Big Grey Hunter-thank you for a well thought out and educational post!

    I am an eventer. When I first started watching the upper levels of dressage, it looked really wierd to me because I originally came from a lower level western pleasure type background.

    Now I can't look at western pleasure without thinking it looks really wierd.

    I think it's harder to appreciate the subtleties of another discipline that values different ideals. It doesn't mean that the other discipline is wrong, just that it may be that it is so different from your ideal that you don't understand or appreciate it.

    That being said, I have come to appreciate the value of striving for good equitation over fences. Not because it looks pretty (although I might be more apt to buy the photo if I don't look all a@@holes and elbows!) but because it really helps my horse perform his best.

    The last 3 horses I have owned have been inverted coming to the fences. One horse was built that way, one was kinda "special" and the third horse didn't have any particular issues. As a rider, I needed to examine why 3 of my horses went that way, when only one horse had a legitimate reason to do so.

    The answer...my riding! I'm not a horrible rider but I was always getting very slightly left behind in the tack. There could be a myraid of reasons why but the end result was the same. The particular horse I own now needs someone who will stay quiet on the approach and stay with him. I had a tendency to see a spot, sit up rigidly in almost a dressage seat and then always be slightly behind the motion. As a result, he went around inverted and would jump awkwardly because I was hindering his style. Even though I successfully brought 2 horses through Prelim, I was not the most effective rider I could be.

    I have learned to appreciate the "duck butt" and the feeling of learning to ride with" ice water in your veins". My form over fences has improved dramatically and my horses' form has also as a result of learning to tilt my pelvis more forward and ride quietly but effectively towards the fence.

    Good hunter riders know how to stay quietly centered and balanced to let their horses perform their best. I have learned to appreciate the skills needed to do that because it's darn hard!!

    I think as eventers, sometimes we don't always have the time to work as much on our form because we have 3 different disciplines rolled into one. Sometimes we need to just "get the job done". While that attitude is necessary at times, sometimes we could also strive towards refinement in our skills also.

    But we can all learn something from people truly skilled in their disciplines even if it's not something we are particularly planning on doing.
    Last edited by mkevent; Jun. 18, 2013 at 03:11 PM.


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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    For the same reason that eventers don't teach their horses lead changes, miss at least two distances per course, and just run at the jumps.

    Is it because they're just too lazy to school the basics into a horse?
    I gotta say, I was surprised to see an eventer writing in about bad eq at all. I thought you guys were too bad-a$$ and effective to care?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    7 members found this post helpful.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Eventer View Post
    ding ding ding ding... we have a winner!
    If you knew the answer, why'd you ask?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    12 members found this post helpful.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    Um, "how you actually perform" has a lot to do with "how well the judges like you."

    If you cross canter your course with the horse tense and bitted up in an elevator bit, leave long to three and chip out on the last one, you can still go clear in eventing but you will not be near the ribbons in the hunters.

    "Steering," "pace control," "relaxation," and "what lead you're on" is part of "how well you actually perform" in some disciplines.
    Yes, in a sea of like riders, it's all about skill.

    </sarcasm>

    yes, I actually did attend shows once upon a time. And while I have to admit it was less about the stamp on the rump or the label in the jacket, unless you had OBVIOUS mistakes, there were many cases of blatant favoritism.

    Besides, hunters cheat enough with there twisted D rings, who needs an elevator bit! It's a bit of comparing Apples and Avocados on this one.

    I am not saying hunters can't ride, but it's a prime playground for posers.

    Good, bad, indifferent. I get it that it's your sand box. Still, it's no reason to get all huffy when somebody points out where there is something that has little to do with life in the real world. Like playing it up for the judge, be it sticking the butt up in the air, or hiding the need for stronger bits behind the once-upon-a-time only plain D-ring. Eventing is time and faults. Objective judging. Hunters (and Dressage for that matter) not so much.

    If it settles you down, modern Dressage has about as much in common with it's roots as the show hunter does with the hunt field. You can have the horse under your saddle with perfect leads and flawless piaffe, but you can't ride it down the drive without a major meltdown.....I think the duck butt is the least of the problems. (throwing in the WP horses in for good measure....I am still trying to figure out what the pleasure is riding a horse an old woman on a walker would leave in the dust!)

    BTW, had my fill in coffee, I am feeling much less snarky, for all of you who think I am just mean. I am actually like right now.



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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
    Oh Alagirl...

    I think you missed my point. And you appear to have some sort of chip on your shoulder with regard to the hunters...

    My point was that the OP is trolling.

    As I said, all disciplines have their positives and negatives. And maybe, just maybe, instead of snarking about whose discipline is the bestest, we should just focus on being the rider we want to be.

    You stop snarking at the hunters, because you obviously know nothing about the discipline. And I'll refrain from snarking at the eventers, as I've only competed in one event at the BN level, and so have no business commenting on their sport.

    Like I said, there are good and bad riders in every discipline and until we're all perfect (whatever that may mean...), you really have no business snarking at somebody else. Go ride your horse.

    Constructive criticism is one thing, but this thread...geez.
    nah, I am too lazy to carry excess baggage, be it chips or otherwise.

    I was really only commenting on your snark. Yes, the 'if you don't <insert quality here> shut up'
    You snark quiet well, don't sell yourself short.
    The OP was asking a question. Too bad you didn't like it, that does not make it trolling.

    But I will continue to snicker at the hunters, thank you very much because the 'OMG, I jumped a 2 foot cross rail' cracks me up. Why? Because I can jump that high, still, without horse. Seems to me there is a culture that puts more emphasis on appearance than substance. If that floats your boat, go for it. But it it would serve you better not to get upset when outsiders point out the inconsistencies.
    Yes, the hunter culture amuses me. it has little to do with what I grew up with around horses. And for the life of me, I can't wrap my mind around it.
    But I certainly got a feeling for what is going on...and it makes me and

    I certainly had the same feeling about my sister, choosing to never leave the ring. However, she was not primarily concerned about how to pose for the judges. Even if she had three different color tall boots in her estate.


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  14. #34
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    OK, I'm a hunter jumper rider, and I prefer the old style position, not the "laying upon the neck" position as exhibited by some. Duck butt or cat in heat, it looks weird. But hey, who cares? I also don't like the far back position of some eventers. I like the old school look in hunter/jumper and eventing. Whatever works for you, if you are a rider.

    Since alagirl has no horse, probably never has had a horse, and has never mentioned riding a horse, I guess her opinion is from a observer's viewpoint?

    I still like the old straight line from elbow to mouth riding of olden times. Even jockeys don't "lay" on the necks of their mounts.


    15 members found this post helpful.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    Eventers, love y'all, but listen up:

    There is a very good reason for SOME professionals to do it.

    Let's watch Scott Stewart here for a good example. No offense to him, but he's kind of a short-legged, barrel-chested guy, a lot of whose weight is carried in the top half of his body...

    ....
    Total duck butt.

    I have not watched hunters in a long long time. What a pleasant ride. Almost like QH western pleasure over fences. Ok, the horse is a bit faster than a peanut roller. Horse looks QH too. How relaxing to watch. Couple boxes of wine, some Stacey's Pita Chips, and you have a relaxing day.

    But eventing, much more exciting! No time for boxed wine, and absolutely no crunching of foods, might miss something spectacular, can't take your eyes off of them. All three events are exciting to watch, and maybe learn something. Event horses are eye candy! imo. :-)


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    <snip>
    But I will continue to snicker at the hunters, thank you very much because the 'OMG, I jumped a 2 foot cross rail' cracks me up. Why? Because I can jump that high, still, without horse. Seems to me there is a culture that puts more emphasis on appearance than substance. If that floats your boat, go for it. But it it would serve you better not to get upset when outsiders point out the inconsistencies.
    <snip>
    Upper level hunter riders are not impressed with a 2' jump, anymore than upper level jumper riders or eventers. High performance hunters and derby horses jump 4' (1.20m) and up (considering high options in derbies, etc. I think Advanced stadium is maxed out at 4'1" (1.24m). So I'm not sure what about that makes hunter riders excited about jumping 2'.

    Certainly, there are plenty of tiny hunter classes - just like I've seen jumper classes at .65m, itty-bitty pre-beginner novice events, etc. It seems to me like beginning or nervous riders are those who are competing over, and excited about, small jumps. And why shouldn't they be?


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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    But I will continue to snicker at the hunters, thank you very much because the 'OMG, I jumped a 2 foot cross rail' cracks me up. Why? Because I can jump that high, still, without horse.
    Really? The inability to school a lead change cracks me up. Even horses in their first month of jump schooling can learn them, and the 2' local yokels are supposed to have them.

    And I can do a lead change skipping down the hall, still, without horse.

    And with a horse too. Which is key in a horse forum.


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  18. #38
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    Taking the bait here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    But I will continue to snicker at the hunters, thank you very much because the 'OMG, I jumped a 2 foot cross rail' cracks me up. Why? Because I can jump that high, still, without horse. Seems to me there is a culture that puts more emphasis on appearance than substance.
    I hope you are also looking down your nose at the Beginner Novice division in eventing. Heck, let's talk about how the short format or even 1 day horse trials are sorry versions of formerly tough sports.

    The USEF hunter ring isn't the only kind of horse sport that has been dumbed down. But hunters still *do* encourage a couple things that are useful.... even to eventers:

    1. A horse who can find his way to a jump without a whole lot of micromanaging. Having evented and field hunted, I can tell you that you *do* want a horse who can save his own bacon over fences outside without me having to do it all.

    2. The value of a broke horse and a tactful ride. This is probably the best thing you can give a horse. Whatever the sport, no horse wants to be subject to kick-and-pull around a course.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    But I will continue to snicker at the hunters, thank you very much because the 'OMG, I jumped a 2 foot cross rail' cracks me up. Why? Because I can jump that high, still, without horse.
    That's just not nice. I highly doubt that people who are proud of doing 2 foot crossrails well are the same folks who are dictating the current fashion for equitation over larger fences. Go after the trainers teaching them if you so please, or after specific divisions in shows or whatever, but mocking people's pride in their own accomplishments, especially at that level, is just mean, petty and unnecessary. I see too much of this kind of behavior in horse sports, and it needs to stop.

    Also, it is actually possible to find beauty and purpose in more than one way of doing things. I started as a hunter, moved overseas and jumped massive things that would earn even your respect, and now do dressage and occasionally jump for fun. I still respect and enjoy watching all those disciplines and more.

    And I can look like a damn fool doing piaffe and passage sans-horse, but it doesn't mean getting a horse to do those things is as easy as using my own two feet to do them. So your personal ability to transport yourself over a pole is kind of irrelevant.


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  20. #40
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    What the....LOL. Umm, I (and many of my fellow profient AA event riders) calmly ride my horse in a connected fashion through his lead changes as he completes his SJ course in a smooth rhythm and I stay over his center. I guess we didn't get the memo that we are all terrible riders who don't care about horsemanship. I did hunters for a long time. I got bored. I'm happy now. If you're happy, who cares?


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