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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by eponacowgirl View Post
    I would not allow this of my students, no way, no how. What they post is a reflection of me. Period.
    Well, to be fair, I'm not sure if the current trainer has "liked" the stolen photos. I was referring to other people having "liked" the photos, some of whom I happen to know are or were trainers. I mean, I get it. They want to support the kid. But they are inadvertently (at least I hope it is inadvertent) also supporting theft. Which is why the kids think it is okay. And I can even see why it "feels" okay to a kid - I mean, the pictures are OF the kid.

    Nevertheless, it is theft. And once a person knows it is theft, they can't un-know it. So if they continue posting stolen photos, they are intentionally stealing.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #62

    Default really?

    Im not being sassy and im not being a jerk I am simply stating my mind just like you people are doing. All I'm saying is it takes a really special kind of person to talk the way you people are about a 14 year old. Grant it one you do not even know. I know some of you know her, and I know the person who made this forum obviously knows her, but that gives you know right to talk the way you are. I understand very much that she has done something wrong, but to talk to her the way you all are, you should be ashamed. She tries to justify her actions, and while the reasons might not be sufficient, they are by no means something that should be dismissed. She is trying to reciprocate your guys' words and hurtful judgements and to respond the way you people have just shows how juvenile you all are. To the person who made this forum in the first place, why? What are you trying to accomplish by having a medley of riders turn on a 14 year old girl? You are a 30+ year old woman, if you really had a problem you should talk to the girl herself, not hide yourself behind a computer screen and belittle her. Im not making up for her actions, they are wrong, but I know the girl very very well and she does not deserve the things you all are saying, "she should have a spanking" "mugshots" shame on you people. Riding is meant to be a fun sport, not a sport where we turn on one another behind a computer. Before you continue saying the things you are going to say, think before you post, they can really be hurtful. Turning this girl in does nothing: she will get a warning, have to buy the photos, and/or get a fine. Would that make you all happy? Someone who was trying to share their success and how they are doing. Is all you want to see those people suffer? She wasn't trying to say she's at very fancy shows, she is by no means that kind of person, she is right she just wants to show people she is doing well. She is excited, and I KNOW she bought all the photos she is posting, so please stop.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  3. #63
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    Nov. 7, 2012
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    I can understand a child maybe not getting the concept behind "stealing" photos. What really bothers me are the pro rides who post stolen photos on the facebook or webpages. Yes, I have seen some *** and **** star riders do this. What a bad example.



  4. #64
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    Mar. 28, 2005
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    Every photographer has a different price structure and biz model...so it is impossible to compare or comment on any specifics. Our policy is pretty simple. If you order a print from us ( any size) , we will send you, AT NO COST TO YOU, a web sized file sufficient to be posted to FB or any social media or to be emailed to friends, family, etc. That file is not of sufficient size to allow prints to be made from it. Our business ( what there is left of the single photo sale biz) is to sell prints. When we receive an on line order and digital prints are requested ( not everyone wants or cares about having a lo res file...some want a print of the highest quality they can purchase)we send those files to the email indicated at our earliest OPPORTUNITY. That might not be that minute, or that day...but if we're not in the midst of a show most go out within a day or 2....sometimes they go out as soon as the order hits our inbox.We want you to have them as quickly as we can get them to you.Our prints usually go out the week after that show ends. I know we are the most prompt of any photo organization.We do not offer /sell hi res files...End of story. We sell photos and we give lo res files.If there is a GOOD REASON that your files are needed by return email, a courteous email or call with an explanation of why time is of the essence( Sale pending, relative in hospital and ....well, you know) usually will get them to you as fast as possible. As for theft....and that's what posting a photo which has been lifted, scanned, whatever you want to call it from a photographers site, not matter what the watermark says...is THEFT.I am not surprised that so many think it's ok to steal...it is because they WANT to think it's OK.Let's not forget that we live in a world of entitlement...not only kids do it...adults do it almost as often. The rationalizations are not important...they are poor excuses for doing what's wrong when you know it is wrong when you do it. We have decided to "ignore" the blatant theft...in that we do not waste our time chasing these miscreants. WE may not pursue them legally or expose them publicly, but we know the ones that are consistent and excessive. And when they come into the ring, it's time to check my email...or just stare at them with my camera on the ground.Not much else to do..our own version of getting even.. Someone mentioned that some exhibitors post our stolen pics as it indicates that they have been to a "big" show..a sort of badge of honor.( Funny that they would convert their theft into an honor...go figure) I have been saying for the last few years that there will be no show photographers in the very near future. I do not in any way understand how any photographers can afford or rationalize going to another show...Unless they have found a way to service those who are still interested in procuring exceptional quality images. We have been very lucky to capture some part of that market. Without those quality buyers of photos and our books and photo shoots we would have no reason to pack the bus and head down the road again. Without a specialty niche, every photographer will be out of the business as it is now known very soon...and then this forum will be filled with the question..."Where are all the photographers"...Some will still be around, but they won't be wasting their time on people who were entitled and thought that stealing a picture was no big deal.It's never a big deal when it's not happening TO YOU.....On another note...many of you have been having an issue placing orders on our site...we're working on the issue. If you can't get into our site or complete your order, Email me...ponypix@mac.com or call the office ...561-792-9331 and leave a message if Betty is not there...and we will get back to you. Thanks for being persistent..we appreciate it


    9 members found this post helpful.

  5. #65
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    Oct. 14, 2007
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    California
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsesarefun9797 View Post
    Im not being sassy and im not being a jerk I am simply stating my mind just like you people are doing. All I'm saying is it takes a really special kind of person to talk the way you people are about a 14 year old. Grant it one you do not even know. I know some of you know her, and I know the person who made this forum obviously knows her, but that gives you know right to talk the way you are. I understand very much that she has done something wrong, but to talk to her the way you all are, you should be ashamed. She tries to justify her actions, and while the reasons might not be sufficient, they are by no means something that should be dismissed. She is trying to reciprocate your guys' words and hurtful judgements and to respond the way you people have just shows how juvenile you all are. To the person who made this forum in the first place, why? What are you trying to accomplish by having a medley of riders turn on a 14 year old girl? You are a 30+ year old woman, if you really had a problem you should talk to the girl herself, not hide yourself behind a computer screen and belittle her. Im not making up for her actions, they are wrong, but I know the girl very very well and she does not deserve the things you all are saying, "she should have a spanking" "mugshots" shame on you people. Riding is meant to be a fun sport, not a sport where we turn on one another behind a computer. Before you continue saying the things you are going to say, think before you post, they can really be hurtful. Turning this girl in does nothing: she will get a warning, have to buy the photos, and/or get a fine. Would that make you all happy? Someone who was trying to share their success and how they are doing. Is all you want to see those people suffer? She wasn't trying to say she's at very fancy shows, she is by no means that kind of person, she is right she just wants to show people she is doing well. She is excited, and I KNOW she bought all the photos she is posting, so please stop.

    Since you use the phrase as bolded above YOU ALL -

    With that; I said to this individual 14 girl what I would say to my OWN 14 year old child. That's what parents do!
    How people treat you is their KARMA.... how you REACT is yours!


    12 members found this post helpful.

  6. #66
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    Jul. 21, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsesarefun9797 View Post
    Im not being sassy and im not being a jerk I am simply stating my mind just like you people are doing. All I'm saying is it takes a really special kind of person to talk the way you people are about a 14 year old. Grant it one you do not even know. I know some of you know her, and I know the person who made this forum obviously knows her, but that gives you know right to talk the way you are. I understand very much that she has done something wrong, but to talk to her the way you all are, you should be ashamed. She tries to justify her actions, and while the reasons might not be sufficient, they are by no means something that should be dismissed. She is trying to reciprocate your guys' words and hurtful judgements and to respond the way you people have just shows how juvenile you all are. To the person who made this forum in the first place, why? What are you trying to accomplish by having a medley of riders turn on a 14 year old girl? You are a 30+ year old woman, if you really had a problem you should talk to the girl herself, not hide yourself behind a computer screen and belittle her. Im not making up for her actions, they are wrong, but I know the girl very very well and she does not deserve the things you all are saying, "she should have a spanking" "mugshots" shame on you people. Riding is meant to be a fun sport, not a sport where we turn on one another behind a computer. Before you continue saying the things you are going to say, think before you post, they can really be hurtful. Turning this girl in does nothing: she will get a warning, have to buy the photos, and/or get a fine. Would that make you all happy? Someone who was trying to share their success and how they are doing. Is all you want to see those people suffer? She wasn't trying to say she's at very fancy shows, she is by no means that kind of person, she is right she just wants to show people she is doing well. She is excited, and I KNOW she bought all the photos she is posting, so please stop.
    Oh, my dear young person.. These people are trying to explain to your friend that these lessons must be learned NOW before she ends up with a mugshot. She understands that stealing copyrighted images is STEALING and not ok, but thinks excitement and "everyone else does it" is an excuse.

    You apparently have the same attitude.

    You will both learn, hopefully not the hard way, that your attitude toward stealing will bring you big problems as you get older. I believe THAT is the message that the adults on this BB are trying to send to you, and for your sake you should listen.
    Last edited by skydy; Jun. 11, 2013 at 03:01 PM. Reason: Punctuation


    13 members found this post helpful.

  7. #67
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    Nov. 13, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsesarefun9797 View Post
    Im not being sassy and im not being a jerk I am simply stating my mind just like you people are doing. All I'm saying is it takes a really special kind of person to talk the way you people are about a 14 year old. Grant it one you do not even know. I know some of you know her, and I know the person who made this forum obviously knows her, but that gives you know right to talk the way you are. I understand very much that she has done something wrong, but to talk to her the way you all are, you should be ashamed. She tries to justify her actions, and while the reasons might not be sufficient, they are by no means something that should be dismissed. She is trying to reciprocate your guys' words and hurtful judgements and to respond the way you people have just shows how juvenile you all are. To the person who made this forum in the first place, why? What are you trying to accomplish by having a medley of riders turn on a 14 year old girl? You are a 30+ year old woman, if you really had a problem you should talk to the girl herself, not hide yourself behind a computer screen and belittle her. Im not making up for her actions, they are wrong, but I know the girl very very well and she does not deserve the things you all are saying, "she should have a spanking" "mugshots" shame on you people. Riding is meant to be a fun sport, not a sport where we turn on one another behind a computer. Before you continue saying the things you are going to say, think before you post, they can really be hurtful. Turning this girl in does nothing: she will get a warning, have to buy the photos, and/or get a fine. Would that make you all happy? Someone who was trying to share their success and how they are doing. Is all you want to see those people suffer? She wasn't trying to say she's at very fancy shows, she is by no means that kind of person, she is right she just wants to show people she is doing well. She is excited, and I KNOW she bought all the photos she is posting, so please stop.
    My initial post (and subsequent posts, actually) do not name the person I was referring to. Apparently a friend of the person recognized her from my description of what happened on Facebook and chose to post that here (again without names) - including what division she showed in, etc. That is what identified her (sort of - she still has not been publicly identified in this thread other than by first name, which she posted herself). My question on this forum was about what other people do when they see online theft of photographs occurring repeatedly, particularly when the theft is committed by a child.

    As I mentioned, I DID post about this directly to the individual on the individual's FB page. I was quite nice about it, actually. My comment was deleted, and more stolen photos were uploaded shortly thereafter. That's when I posted here, asking others what they typically do in these types of situations and whether or not they typically report such thefts to the photographer.

    You still seem confused about theft of electronic images. Even if your friend purchased the hard copies of the photos, the electronic posting of them on Facebook or elsewhere IS STILL THEFT unless she has express rights from the photographer to do so. In this case, the photographer in question charges a small extra fee for such rights. That would have given your friend the rights to post the photos, and the images she would have posted would not have a "stolen" watermark on them.

    When you buy a print of a photo, you are buying just that one print. You are not buying the right to make unlimited copies of it, unless you also purchased that right from the photographer (which your friend did not).

    Look, this is not about hurting your friend's feelings. It is about theft and it is about right vs. wrong. I tried to explain that politely on Facebook. It was very blatantly ignored. If she truly didn't understand that when you buy a print photo you are not also buying the electronic rights, well, then this has probably been informative, and I hope that she will modify her behavior in the future.

    There is no reason for her feelings to be hurt. People, especially young people, make mistakes. Modifying her behavior in the future would be an excellent outcome here. It is great to share successes - but one must do so without violating copyright laws. It is too bad that more parents don't explain this to their kids, but the reality is that I think many adults may not understand how copyright law works.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  8. #68
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    Apr. 28, 2005
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    Chicago
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponypix View Post
    Our business ( what there is left of the single photo sale biz) is to sell prints.

    We do not offer /sell hi res files...End of story. We sell photos and we give lo res files.
    You may want to redefine your business. Wouldn't your business be more successful of you defined it as something like:

    Our business is to capture memories for clients and deliver those memories in whatever form meets the clients' needs.

    Might be time to dig out the old "Marketing Myopia" article from HBR.

    I want to see show photographers succeed. I want you to be wildly successful. I'm ok with a camera but I will never capture the gorgeous images that the pros can.

    As I said earlier, I showed at a rainy muddy show a few weeks ago. If my only option was a $50 print and one low res image, I would have bought nothing. But the photographer gave me the option of all my images digitally, so I spent over $100. Win win.
    ~ Citizens for a Kinder, Gentler COTH...our mantra: Be nice. ~


    6 members found this post helpful.

  9. #69
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    Oct. 4, 2012
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    I don't think anyone here has said anything bad about the kid. People are trying to help her understand what she's doing wrong, so she can knock it off and behave.

    Honestly, if this thread hurts her feelings, enough to have another rant at us, then life is going to be very tough for you, Emma. This is quiet, helpful people here. Not many others will be so nice.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  10. #70
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    May. 11, 2004
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    Emma dear,

    Back when I was 14 back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth if I or any of my friends were caught stealing anything we had a choice either face the music from our parents or the legal system.... It was a tough choice but many felt the legal system was a softer choice. Not that I ever stole anything.. ( or at least got caught.. ).

    At home chances are we would receive either a spanking that we would not soon forget, or if our parents where the type the last thing we would remember is the feeling of something hitting the top of our heads as we were pounded into the ground...with their bare hands as their were so mad. Then we were sent to our rooms for a week (at least) of lucky were we had books. IF we were lucky a TV with 4 channels on it and the president was on all of them... And our horse/ pony sold.

    Just because "every one does it" does it make it right? I wonder about the morals ( not religious type) of the kids today and some adults.

    If this is our future I worry and am glad that I wont be around for a lot of it....
    Friend of bar .ka


    6 members found this post helpful.

  11. #71
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    Jun. 7, 2006
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    .

    I know the option of buying a physical copy and scanning it is there, but when you really want to share your progress etc etc, you just kinda do whatever you can.
    For values of doing "whatever you can" that miraculously omit the option of JUST BUYING THE PHOTO.

    The fact that you are 14 does not give you a free pass to act like this is ok. Expect more from yourself. Be a better person, don't sit in the bottom of the pond with "everyone else" who is doing it.

    Everyone else is not actually doing it. There are 14 year olds who manage to get through life without stealing. Hold yourself to a higher standard than the lowest common denominator.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  12. #72
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineAlready View Post
    I think younger people sometimes don't realize that the right to post show photographer photos on social media isn't a God given right that everyone is born with. When I was a kid, the show photographers would send me tiiiiny little copies of photo proofs in the mail, and then I would select one or two from those to order in a larger size. Then, months later, the full sized photos would arrive in the mail. Having to wait for photos is not the end of the world.

    Not everything in life results in instant gratification.
    Bingo! You so hit the nail on the head.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ponytoes View Post
    I would think that after paying $105 for TWO pictures, social media rights should be included, just felt greedy to me........
    And wanting something for nothing is not greedy?
    Maybe if you had asked differently it would have been a bonus, ever think of that?

    On another front, the reason it costs so much is because of people like the OP is talking about. People who think they deserve to get something for nothing and have every excuse in the book about why it is OK for them to just take what they want because they want it.


    Quote Originally Posted by emma5145212 View Post
    Hello all.

    I seem to be the subject of this forum post. Just to let you all know, I am a normal show photographer customer and Ive brought multiple pictures from multiple photographers. Unlike other photographers, Anne Gittins doesn’t offer an option to buy online files, which is what I normally do. I know the option of buying a physical copy and scanning it is there, but when you really want to share your progress etc etc, you just kinda do whatever you can. It’s not an uncommon thing either. I just opened up instagram to see three new pictures from my friends from the horse show that are watermarked. If I have to suffer for it, then all the else does. It’s not only kids, other adults do this as well. I'm sorry if I caught you on a bad day, but that gives you no right to assume that I'm stealing pictures and go running your mouth about it on a forum. I’m sorry if it irks you, but you’ll just have to accept the fact. I'm 14 not 30.
    Wow, you are right up there in the lack of morals crowd, hu? 14 is plenty old enough to know the basics of right and wrong, no? Because you want it, it is OK. Too bad for the photographer.

    Why not look at it this way.
    Taking show photographs is a business where the photographer works and supports their family.
    If your parents worked in a field where everyone, like you, felt entitled to simply take what they wanted and not pay for it your parents would have a hard time making money. That lack of money would most likely mean you would not be riding at these shows, etc.
    Why is it OK for you to steal from the photographer but not OK for people to steal from your parents?


    6 members found this post helpful.

  13. #73

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    I recently came across an ad on Craigslist with a stolen, watermarked, photo and I looked up the photographer, copied the link and e-mailed it to him. He was extremely thankful.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  14. #74
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    May. 6, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by bumknees View Post
    Emma dear,

    Back when I was 14 back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth if I or any of my friends were caught stealing anything we had a choice either face the music from our parents or the legal system.... It was a tough choice but many felt the legal system was a softer choice. Not that I ever stole anything.. ( or at least got caught.. ).

    At home chances are we would receive either a spanking that we would not soon forget, or if our parents where the type the last thing we would remember is the feeling of something hitting the top of our heads as we were pounded into the ground...with their bare hands as their were so mad. Then we were sent to our rooms for a week (at least) of lucky were we had books. IF we were lucky a TV with 4 channels on it and the president was on all of them... And our horse/ pony sold.

    Just because "every one does it" does it make it right? I wonder about the morals ( not religious type) of the kids today and some adults.

    If this is our future I worry and am glad that I wont be around for a lot of it....

    uh, yeah. If I were the parent of the teenager in question, she would be paying for every photo she had stolen out of her own pocket. She'd also miss one show for each stolen picture. I don't tolerate a thief. I especially don't tolerate one who thinks they can justify bad behavior by claiming that everyone does it. Fourteen is MORE than old enough to know you don't take what doesn't belong to you.

    I'm guessing this teen would be livid if she leased her horse for a show and it was shown in several extra divisions. But where's the harm if it's returned unhurt? The rider probably just wants to get ahead and make progress. That makes it ok, right?
    According to the Mayan calendar, the world will not end this week. Please plan your life accordingly.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by pony4me View Post
    Does anyone know if it's possible to purchase social media rights for older photos? I have some that I've paid for, and would like to put on Facebook. And what rates do the major photographers charge?
    I would imagine it is possible, but that you would have to talk to the photographer about it directly. They might grant you the right to scan older photos to post them (or they might not, it would be up to them). I'd think that with the rampant theft of images for electronic purposes, a photographer would be absolutely thrilled that you care enough to contact them about old images that you want to put on FB. I would imagine the cost would be fairly negligible (even for current images, the digital image pricing is usually quite low - like $10 sometimes).



  16. #76
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    To address the OP's original question: I would suggest not calling the infringer out either publicly or in private, that only ruffles feathers, and puts you in the crossfire. Instead I suggest you simply screen cap the infringement, notify the photog, and let them deal with it. Like pricing, we all have different policies about this. That's the nature of the business.

    When I still posted show proofs online, I always appreciative of customers who cared enough to let me know.

    I wanted to let y'all know about something that is occurring at the shows that (in my mind) is even worse. That is the use of cameras and phones to capture (steal) proofs from photographer's viewing stations at the shows. Since I no longer post show proofs online, this problem has exploded to the point that we must disable our viewing stations when my events trailer is left unattended at the shows. It is not just kids but adults also. And the thieves are so bold that I have actually had to take out a cell phone and threaten to call the police on tow of them before they would put away the camera phone and or leave my trailer.

    The fact is they know it's wrong, but the sense of self entitlement is so strong that they just don't care.
    “Photography to the amateur is recreation, to the professional it is work, and hard work too, no matter how pleasurable it may be.”-Edward Weston



  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redline Guy View Post
    The fact is they know it's wrong, but the sense of self entitlement is so strong that they just don't care.
    Very sad.
    Probably the same people who would get all up in arms if someone took something of theirs.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #78
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    And, as for the question about WHY I would report the theft to the photographer, here is why:

    The photographer had some items stolen, and I know where they are located. It is up to the photographer if she wants to go retrieve those items or not. Yes, one possible outcome is that the photographer requires Emma to take the images down. Another is that Emma is required to pay the $10 per image fee for the stolen digital images, so that she can properly own them and post them online as she wishes. Another is that the photographer decides to do nothing about it, which may happen simply because the photographer likely lacks the energy or time to chase theives down every day (which is what I suspect would happen if every one of these were pursued).

    But the bottom line is that if someone stole something from Emma, like a saddle pad or something, and I knew who that person was, I would TELL Emma (well, probably her parents) so that she could take whatever steps she wanted to to address the theft (i.e., get the saddle pad back, confront the thief, etc.).

    I've gone a long time without saying or doing anything when I see digital image theft. I finally got tired of it, and I decided to say something to the thief when I witnessed the theft. The thief ignored me and then continued stealing very openly, so I reported the theft to the victim of the crime. It's as simple as that. Before reporting it, I posted here to ask if others report these things when they see them, and, if so, how they go about it. I provided a few relevant details to assist people in responding to my question, such as the fact that I had already confronted the thief and that the thief was a child.

    It is unfortunate to see that Emma has shown up here to defend her behavior instead of considering the situation, learning from it, and vowing to do better next time.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineAlready View Post
    It is unfortunate to see that Emma has shown up here to defend her behavior instead of considering the situation, learning from it, and vowing to do better next time.
    That is one of the saddest parts of this whole situation.
    Instead of reading and seeing that it truly was wrong she spewed a list of excuses of why no one should care that she is doing something wrong.

    Have you provided the photographer a link to this thread so they can see the responses by Emma? It might help them decide how to react.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redline Guy View Post
    To address the OP's original question: I would suggest not calling the infringer out either publicly or in private, that only ruffles feathers, and puts you in the crossfire. Instead I suggest you simply screen cap the infringement, notify the photog, and let them deal with it. Like pricing, we all have different policies about this. That's the nature of the business.
    Yes, I think this is probably what I will do in the future. However, due to her age, I wanted to give her a chance to remedy the situation before reporting it. I also would have been willing to educate her on the specifics of digital image theft (i.e., purchasing a hard copy print of a photograph does not typically give a person all rights, including digital rights, to a photograph) if she had been open to it.

    Hopefully this thread will be informative for any other kids that think it is okay to lift digital images just because you bought a hard copy print. The hard copy print is one "item" and the digital image, along with the rights to share it online is another, separate "item" that must be purchased separately. I think it is quite possible that many kids really do not understand this. It's a somewhat complex concept, actually, so I'm inclined to hope that it is just a lack of understanding rather than an outright disregard for right and wrong.


    1 members found this post helpful.

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  5. <Advice for would-be horse show photographers>
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