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  1. #1
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    Jun. 1, 2002
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    Default Do you know when you've been eliminated?

    I'm sure everyone has been eliminated before. At least that would make me feel better!

    I knew after 3 stops that I was eliminated, asked if I could continue (I was not allowed to) and then left. In tears. Sniffle.

    However, I was at an event where a rider had 3 stops then a 4th, then continued on to be pulled up before the next fence. I think they didn't get pulled up sooner because it's hard to coordinate things via radios. I think they had stops at two different fences and the 4th stop was at a 3rd fence.

    Do you just keep going until someone tells you to stop in case maybe the JJ missed it or maybe it was a glance off? Do you keep track in your head?

    I will say that I have been to schooling events where riders are allowed to continue on after being eliminated provided they are safe otherwise.
    Last edited by enjoytheride; Jun. 6, 2013 at 05:26 PM.



  2. #2
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    A very important question and discussion to have. I am going to copy my response from a recent thread, as to why it is important to know not only when you're eliminated, but when you should call it a day (whether you're actually eliminated or not).

    I will never do a 3rd attempt at a XC fence again. It is a pact I made with a peer and our coach in 2006, at Galway Downs at the Saturday evening "party" the day Mia Eriksson died. Needless to say it was a sombre night. (She had been eliminated for too many stops, but obviously didn't realize it and continued on. The announcer/ground jury was in the process of getting her pulled off the course, but she was approaching the water complex, proceeded to jump, horse flipped and landed on her.)

    We all agreed that if we had one stop or run-out on course, it happens, can be a moment's inattention, a bad distance or maybe the horse needed a look. We can decide to continue on after that. But a second run-out or stop means, "something's not right." And we agreed that a competition is not the time or place to try to school through it - whether it's rider error, horse isn't feeling right, or we are not ready for the question.
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng


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  3. #3
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    Default

    Good answer Blugal.

    For some people - they are in a zone and may not really be aware of much at all, and good lord don't let them move-up until they are aware! Others are just trying to pull one to keep going.

    Then there's the person that got permission after being E'd in sj (xc went after) that they would be granted xc only until they had a refusal - which happened, and then they knowingly kept going! got pulled off the course and then turned up in warm-up!!

    There is a whole lot more going on for these TDs than the normal competitor even dreams about!
    The truth is what you can get other people to believe.

    -- Tommy Smothers


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  4. #4
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    Default

    As tempting as it is to do "just one more jump" when one has been eliminated, it is not within the rules and therefore one should quietly exit stage left at the walk.

    I have asked (and been granted) permission to school a fence after a bogey fence before leaving the course where I've had a stop, but that is in the setting of a "R" and not an "E". And if the JJ said "no" I would abide by their decision.

    I have also gone back to warmup after an "E" or an "R" and done 1-2 warmup jumps just to end the day on a positive note. AFTER checking with the steward if there is one.

    It's not the show's problem if I feel like I need to school my horse.
    Click here before you buy.



  5. #5
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    Oct. 26, 2007
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    Default

    Good Question!

    I never had three stops on XC - I know, I am must be great! – the only elimination I have had was FALLING OFF twice (back when you could!) at the same darn fence!!!

    As a jump judge (and I usually only do one shift – Prelim through Advanced), I have not had someone voluntarily pull up after three stops on course. But I have had to inform people it was their third stop and that they must retire on multiple occasions.

    So even upper levels riders are guilty of being "in the zone" and not realizing that the game is over for the day.



  6. #6
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    Default

    The only times I have been eliminated wthout knowing it were when I missed a fence, or jumped the wrong fence.

    However, when stops are spread over multople fences, there are alway people who DON'T KNOW the "cumulative refusals" rule, or forgot how many they had. No a big deal as long as they do not argue with teh jump judge when told to stop.

    The rules are very clear that you may NOT jump another fence after ben eliminated. You can, in fact, be fined $100 for it.

    EV138 10. AFTER ELIMINATION. A competitor eliminated or retired for any reason
    must leave the course at once and has no right to continue. If he does not stop at
    once and it can be established beyond a reasonable doubt that he should be eliminated
    or retired, he should be stopped as soon as possible and reported to the
    ground jury. A competitor must walk his horse off the course either mounted or
    dismounted. Violators shall be warned or fined up to $100. (payable to the Organizing
    Committee), at the discretion of the Ground Jury.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  7. #7
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    Depends on the types of stops. Stops at fences with height are easy to track. Stops at ditches and water, one step back with any foot and did the horse step back or sideways.
    As Pony Grandma said there is a lot going on and the officials are balancing on that thin line of being fair to the competitor, while watching for safety, DR issues.

    Recognized completions follow the USEF rules for Eventing. 3 and out at one fence, 4 and out overall. I believe now most coaches are encouraging riders to pull up after a few stops, especially when stopping is not normal for their horse.

    Schooling shows have the flexibility to allow you to continue. Especially if you have that horse who jumps everything at home or at XC schools but stops at competitions. Gives you a chance to figure out if it is a rider or a horse problem and hopefully resolve.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim



  8. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by enjoytheride View Post

    Do you just keep going until someone tells you to stop in case maybe the JJ missed it or maybe it was a glance off? Do you keep track in your head?
    I got the Big E last weekend. I was very aware of the stops we'd had--they weren't subtle ones, they were big, looky dart-outs. I find it incredibly frustrating that you have to let the horse learn it can stop, and not jump the fence, but I was well aware, said aloud "that's four, we're done" and walked off the course. Crying I was crying after dressage too, that day, it was just awful from the get-go, and we just weren't in the groove.

    I can see a rider not being sure if one or two of the stops were sort of sticky or questionable, but for the most part it seems odd to me that most people wouldn't realize the stops they've had. Maybe it's more a matter of not knowing the rules, rather than not being aware? I've been JJ more than I've ridden around, so I am aware.


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  9. #9
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    May. 23, 2006
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    Baha, well I sure didn't know when I got eliminated! Hell, it was our first event and we were kicking but, and leading the way in first... I was soo freaking excited after my xc run I practically pranced up to the score board with this huge grin on my face only to see a big fat E. I had absolutely no idea why!!! Lol so my trainer and I inquired and low and behold I apparently went to the wrong side of a tree... Ya. Right on red... Didn't know that... Lol so literally 2 feet and I was eliminated.

    Needles to say, lesson learned and was still super proud of my guy on his first 3 phase, but had no clue I was eliminated until I went to see my 1st and got a e in its place lol. I WAS MAD at a particular tree for a while... Lol
    Posted with my Android smartphone.


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  10. #10
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    May. 24, 2013
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    Default

    It is of my opinion that ANYONE competing at the Prelim-Advanced level should have the maturity and experience to know when to pull up!!!!!!!!!! I have personally competed through the 2**level. It is not the responsibility of the volunteers to flag a rider "in the zone" down to save their or their horses life. As for Mia that was a very sad a tragic situation. I personally don’t think that anyone under 18 has the maturity and life experience to compete past preliminary. Ignorance is bliss and I don’t care how many shows a minor has competed in, they don’t and can’t have the life experince.

    Quote Originally Posted by Appsolute View Post
    Good Question!

    I never had three stops on XC - I know, I am must be great! – the only elimination I have had was FALLING OFF twice (back when you could!) at the same darn fence!!!

    As a jump judge (and I usually only do one shift – Prelim through Advanced), I have not had someone voluntarily pull up after three stops on course. But I have had to inform people it was their third stop and that they must retire on multiple occasions.

    So even upper levels riders are guilty of being "in the zone" and not realizing that the game is over for the day.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JenEM View Post
    I got the Big E last weekend. I was very aware of the stops we'd had--they weren't subtle ones, they were big, looky dart-outs. I find it incredibly frustrating that you have to let the horse learn it can stop, and not jump the fence, but I was well aware, said aloud "that's four, we're done" and walked off the course. Crying I was crying after dressage too, that day, it was just awful from the get-go, and we just weren't in the groove.

    I can see a rider not being sure if one or two of the stops were sort of sticky or questionable, but for the most part it seems odd to me that most people wouldn't realize the stops they've had. Maybe it's more a matter of not knowing the rules, rather than not being aware? I've been JJ more than I've ridden around, so I am aware.
    Sorry about your bad day, I have been there and it normally gets better.

    Problems at fences without height, ditches, drops and water, can be tricky. Your horse "is sticky" at the ditch and/or water or drop then goes forward. You as the rider may not feel your horse stepping back, only that your horse's feet are moving. So at that point you may not really know if you were assigned a stop or not. Sticky at any of these fences can result in refusals that most riders don't really feel.
    So the XC course all 3 and your horse is "sticky" at all 3 resulting in 3 stops being called into XC control, so one more confirmed stop at a fence is a total of four and the big E. More common at lower levels as horses and riders are gaining experience over those bogy fences or with a combo returning after a layoff. Sometimes seen as riders move up and are faced with a bigger ditch or drop or busier water complex than they have seen.

    Just another view point.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim



  12. #12
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    My point again, maturity. It is pretty easy to count to 3. No excuse ever!



  13. #13
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    If I'm sure that I'm eliminated, then yes, I pull up. If I'm not sure, then I continue and will stop if told to do so. Sometimes "refusals" aren't obvious, as stated above.
    *CrowneDragon*
    As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.



  14. #14
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    I think it depends. One a super green horse doing a low level...sometimes you get a lot of stops and shuffles. I've not always known if I was given a stop by a jump judge or not. If I'm riding a green horse and having to stuff them over some of the fences but still feel they are learning and improving, I'd keep going until I'm pulled up. If I'm on a green horse and they are stopping and I feel they are not learning and it isn't going to be a good experience (maybe depending on the jumps coming up) I will pull up even if I wasn't eliminated.

    My point is though you sometimes as a rider can not tell if when shuffling in front of a fence you were assigned a stop or two...so a rider may not always know that they have been eliminated.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **


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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    I think it depends. One a super green horse doing a low level...sometimes you get a lot of stops and shuffles. I've not always known if I was given a stop by a jump judge or not. If I'm riding a green horse and having to stuff them over some of the fences but still feel they are learning and improving, I'd keep going until I'm pulled up. If I'm on a green horse and they are stopping and I feel they are not learning and it isn't going to be a good experience (maybe depending on the jumps coming up) I will pull up even if I wasn't eliminated.

    My point is though you sometimes as a rider can not tell if when shuffling in front of a fence you were assigned a stop or two...so a rider may not always know that they have been eliminated.
    This. ^^^^

    Yes, if you're running Advanced, you probably know. But let's not get all high and mighty here because most of us are not doing that. I have been told that it is not really my job to count stops, and you pull up when told.

    Although I was once told to stop when I had a second single stop on course and the fence judge got carried away and pulled me up... She was wrong and I was PISSED.

    So it's a good idea to know, but if you aren't sure, you can keep going.


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  16. #16
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    Sep. 24, 2010
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    My trainer has been known to tell us to keep going until someone tells you otherwise. I recently had an interesting experience a few weekends ago. My guy had a hard time getting focused early on so had a very clear stop at fences 1, 3, and 5. After that he got his head in the game and cruised around no problem. We got to the ditch at 12 and he did a little peek, sidestep, and popped right over. I didn't think anything of it, so I went ahead and finished the course. Apparently, they counted that as a fourth stop and there was an E on the scoreboard. I was thrilled that I got to finish the course though and I would've been last anyway so it wasn't a big deal to me.

    I had this happen another time as well. My horse's second event ever and first time seeing a real water complex. He got marked for two stops at the water (in reality it truly was one, I have it on video) then proceeded to have a green stop at the jump directly out of the water and then at the second to last fence. Thinking we only had the one stop at the water, I went ahead and finished but they eliminated me.

    So as with everything else in the horse world, it depends. If your horse goes out and stops three times at the first fence and you reapproach anyway, that's maybe not such a good decision. But with water, banks down, ditches, etc. it can sometimes be hard to tell and there's no reason to pull up if you're not sure. Its also rare but not unheard of for an inexperienced jump judge to confuse you with another rider, say the wrong number into the walkie talkie, etc. so as long as its safe, I say keep going until you're told otherwise.
    Blog: http://movingonupeventing.blogspot.com/

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dustyeventer View Post
    My point again, maturity. It is pretty easy to count to 3. No excuse ever!
    3 at A fence is pretty obvious.
    You missed the other rule of 4 refusals over the entire course. That is where it is often difficult for the rider to know how many refusals they are carrying, especially if a refusal was called because the horse was sticky at the water, ditch or drop.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim



  18. #18
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    Especially when you have a jump judge that can't tell the difference! I saw one at a local event give a bunch of PT riders (novice) penalties for a refusal at a sunken road when clearly it was a sticky moment, no steps back. It was so bad that the videographer offered video to anyone who wanted to protest it...
    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."


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  19. #19
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    I think people get in zone sometimes and don't realize they are over the limit. One BNR was running a horse novice and it stopped at a ditch, then it stepped back, then stepped forward and then stepped back again. So two refusals. She protested the score but the TD upheld. She honestly didn't realize that the horse had stepped back twice before jumping.

    Things happen that riders are unaware of.


    When jump judging I've heard an elimination called over the radio but then control says to catch them at either the next fence or the one beyond that. That is done more for traffic control than anything else.
    "I couldn't find my keys, so I put her in the trunk"



  20. #20
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    Most of my eliminations have been RF or TE. One of the RF's was back before the "one and done" era and the other was in SJ.

    When I have gotten TE's, they have been for jumping a Novice or Training jump, while running BN. Tess always thought that we should have moved up.

    Most of the time, I have gotten stopped on course. I get too focused on the job at hand and do not realize that I jumped the wrong fence. At Winona, Jackie made the decision to let me finish the course. I had jumped the #2 Training flower table, instead of the #2 BN flower table. I really appreciated that she let me do that. Of course, when I finished the course, I thought that we had won our division, instead of getting a TE. The TD was waiting for me to tell me of what I had done.

    This year, I was jump judging at Spring Bay. An UL rider missed a jump. She had to be stopped. She was almost finished with the cross country course. It happens to all of us.

    I have not been eliminated at an event for stops, yet. Hopefully, Piper will not change that!
    When in Doubt, let your horse do the Thinking!



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