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  1. #21
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    In Dressage, Cowhorse, and Hunters, you have to learn to ride to a minimum (about intermediate) standard to compete at all. In Western Pleasure, with the horses taught to crawl, that standard is more like advanced beginner, which opens up a much wider group of customers. Raising the standard to where WP horses would do 'real' gaits would eliminate some "write a big check, get on, and don't touch anything" clients. It would also make many more horses look better, and lessen the value of the few bloodlines with the temperament, body strength and conformation (like the DVD filly) to do a pretty good crawl naturally.
    Which is why this class was originally intended as an entry-level class (as I see from the history of it), just like cross-rails and pleasure classes in a hunter show weren't ever supposed to be the end result, but rather a way to get in the door.

    But people being what they are, that's not how it works.



  2. #22
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    Feb. 2, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Exactly - which means they are not really the same to the outward appearance (and I know for a fact that many dressage trainers would NOT consider your vaquero horse to be on the aids - they would be WRONG, and I do understand that, but that would be the case).
    Myopia isn't limited to WP...many people in all the different disciplines suffer from it due to a lack of willingness to see connections.

    That said, from the videos out there it seems like the vast majority of the WP/like world shares the same end goal...it's just not one shared by most of the rest of the horse world.


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Which is why this class was originally intended as an entry-level class (as I see from the history of it), just like cross-rails and pleasure classes in a hunter show weren't ever supposed to be the end result, but rather a way to get in the door.

    But people being what they are, that's not how it works.
    A class that promises something closer to instant gratification will always be more popular than one that rewards consistent, diligent progress.

    It's the same reason that TB racing is what it is. What we know as modern racing was once the futurity event for a much more arduous race for older horses.

    The concept of a "World Champion" xrail horse would strike most as silly, yet people brag to high heaven about WP champions.


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  4. #24
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    Myopia isn't limited to WP...many people in all the different disciplines suffer from it due to a lack of willingness to see connections.
    Yes of course, that's why I was pointing that out. But people love to freak out about the AQHA and western horses here, without realizing that the same issues exist in their realms as well. Know what I mean?

    That said, from the videos out there it seems like the vast majority of the WP/like world shares the same end goal...it's just not one shared by most of the rest of the horse world.
    I wouldn't say the rest. Collection and Extension look very different to a 3 gaited or 5 gaited show saddlebred than they do a dressage horse.

    I don't think it's bad to point out the slight differences in nomenclature, no, but what I do object to, now that I know more about it, is that the differences are cause for denigration. That's what I object to.



  5. #25
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    A class that promises something closer to instant gratification will always be more popular than one that rewards consistent, diligent progress.

    It's the same reason that TB racing is what it is. What we know as modern racing was once the futurity event for a much more arduous race for older horses.
    That's the nature of competition. It's why we have rookie soccer teams. I don't know that it's a horrible thing.



  6. #26
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    Oct. 26, 2007
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    San Jose, Ca
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    I have a “friend” (friends in elementary school – now see her Facebook updates) who rides western pleasure. She rides paints, horse is off at the trainer, she goes out once a month for lessons. They do well, lots of blues at the regional shows.

    The things she posts on Facebook make me ill. “Great lesson today, I have to remember to “bang his head down!” “bumps do the trick” – with a photo of a horse in an indiscernible gait – head near its knees. Lots of photos of draw reins pulling faces down between knees… sideways crab crawling…. you get the idea.


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  7. #27
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    Oct. 26, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plumcreek View Post
    I have said this many times, but it boils down to trainer revenue. In Dressage, Cowhorse, and Hunters, you have to learn to ride to a minimum (about intermediate) standard to compete at all. In Western Pleasure, with the horses taught to crawl, that standard is more like advanced beginner, which opens up a much wider group of customers.
    Case in point, the rider I mentioned rides just once a month (outside of shows) - and the other day was bragging how she went on a trail ride (on another horse, dear WP would NEVER leave the "pen"!) - and that her trainer would be SO PROUD! The trail included going up and down hills - and stepping over a log.

    Big accomplishment for this "rider" who shows and wins in WP.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
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    Oct. 11, 2002
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    Colorado
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    What I like about the horse world is that there is something for everyone. Including your Facebook friend, the AQHA Select World Show Halter Exhibitor who could not jog himself, so horse was trained to jog very slowly up the line while owner hobbled the fastest walk he could, and Ann Call, who won World Championships in Pleasure Driving, but was in a wheelchair the rest of the time. It would be nice to see all pleasure horses going at real gaits, but outside of the obviously uncomfortable ones, I never get too upset anymore. I am just glad I got to show in Calif in the olden days when the class was a bridle horse class and was real.
    Comprehensive Equestrian Site Planning and Facility Design
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  9. #29
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    Dec. 2, 2009
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    Well, be nice though. I was really pleased that I had gone out on a trail ride after a lifetime of riding horses had ended with some really bad PTSD ON my horse who is naturally a WP-type. He is, however, not very handy on the trail and he's learning. I do ride more than once a month though and I've never bumped a horse's face except to get them to stop eating a tree!!!

    Anyway - at the AQHA show I attended I saw the same people riding in the hunter equitation, the western riding, the trail class and the WP over two days. Some people did appear to be beginners, others were really good. The only classes I didn't see much crossover with were the reiners (because they went into the ranch pleasure vs. the western pleasure, as you cannot cross-enter) and one HUS horse who appeared to be about 17.3h. I was amazed at how many times I'd see the same people in different events.



  10. #30
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    Sep. 25, 2003
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    Rochester, NY
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    Default what you said!

    Quote Originally Posted by Plumcreek View Post
    What I like about the horse world is that there is something for everyone. Including your Facebook friend, the AQHA Select World Show Halter Exhibitor who could not jog himself, so horse was trained to jog very slowly up the line while owner hobbled the fastest walk he could, and Ann Call, who won World Championships in Pleasure Driving, but was in a wheelchair the rest of the time. It would be nice to see all pleasure horses going at real gaits, but outside of the obviously uncomfortable ones, I never get too upset anymore. I am just glad I got to show in Calif in the olden days when the class was a bridle horse class and was real.

    Also, I've ridden H/J and dressage and I find correctly riding a wp horse to be the most difficult test of my riding ability EVER since there are NO reins to rely upon, just my legs and seat.

    And, rest assured that he also does horsemanship, trail (you can call it HMS over poles if you want, but it involves a VERY obedient horse in order to be done correctly-don't diss it until you've tried it), SMS and can side-pass, leg yield, shoulder-in, haunches-in and half-pass. He even does a reasonable copy of a canter piroette. We're currently working on flying changes. Eventually, when I'm bored with all this, I'll probably try HUS or maybe ranch pleasure. I don't know too many warmbloods that do it all...
    ~~~~~*~*~*~*~*~
    “ride your own horse” from sayings for life.


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  11. #31
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    Feb. 1, 2012
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    Oh, OneGrayPony, I know the judge would never be asked back, I was just pointing out that the judge does not HAVE to place anybody.

    I'm in Vermont, and at our small local shows, ONCE I saw a judge who had 6 ribbons to pin, and she pinned 3 riders. Three of them left the ring with nothing, even though the judge could've gone all the way to 6th place. It was a great thing to see!
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."


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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Yes of course, that's why I was pointing that out. But people love to freak out about the AQHA and western horses here, without realizing that the same issues exist in their realms as well. Know what I mean?
    For sure. However I think only Parelli discussions bring out more frothing and ranting than WP threads. There are legit reasons why both subjects aren't very popular outside of their relatively insular worlds.

    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    I wouldn't say the rest. Collection and Extension look very different to a 3 gaited or 5 gaited show saddlebred than they do a dressage horse.
    Again though, the only way they SHOULD look different is a result of conformation or show ring requirements.

    Here are two 5 gaiter's added to my collage:http://www.easphotography.com/Intern...therGaited.png
    Top is a saddlebred, bottom is my Icelandic. Both are much closer to the non-WP horse than to the WP horse. All still doing "trot" or whatever diagonal gait WP uses.

    http://www.easphotography.com/Intern...therGaited.png

    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    I don't think it's bad to point out the slight differences in nomenclature, no, but what I do object to, now that I know more about it, is that the differences are cause for denigration. That's what I object to.
    What bugs me is that people justify doing things that are damaging to horses and justify it by "that's what other people are doing". The movement that WP demands is exactly counter to everything that preserves soundness in horses.


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    That's the nature of competition. It's why we have rookie soccer teams. I don't know that it's a horrible thing.
    Nothing wrong with being a beginner. Splitting off the intro of a sport, wrapping it up as an entire discipline, and having people spend all their time there is the odd part.

    If you took intro out of dressage, called it "Dressage Pleasure", and trainers no only specialized in it but spent their entire careers and bred horses specifically for it, that would be the equivalent. You can bet your wallet that the "sport" would evolve differently than the rest of dressage too.


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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndysMom View Post
    Also, I've ridden H/J and dressage and I find correctly riding a wp horse to be the most difficult test of my riding ability EVER since there are NO reins to rely upon, just my legs and seat.
    You sound like you're actually riding from your seat. The fact that the rules are so distorted that people have created an entirely new aid (the spur stop) that has no place in ANY other discipline shows how pointless reins are in the whole sport. Why have them at all then?


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  15. #35
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    Again though, the only way they SHOULD look different is a result of conformation or show ring requirements.
    Well, but both are true of the western pleasure horse. If you look at the way they are built, that's typically how a good one moves somewhat naturally. I've seen babies on the longe line jogging very slowly and loping with a level (and slow) topline.

    Look how hollow the back is on the saddlebred. Even though that's in keeping with the horse's conformation, that isn't very good. Compare a WP horse with a dressage horse in long and low. That might be a more apt comparison. There will still be differences, but it is more appropriate.

    The spur stop is not widely used and is even controversial within WP circles.



  16. #36
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    Jul. 14, 2008
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    I am somewhat bothered that people have said they have a slow moving QH and wanted to try ranch pleasure. When it was introduced, I was hopeful it would bring QH back to where it was meant to be..... a working horse! However, I have heard many people say they want to try ranch pleasure with their wp horse. I hope it does not become a disaster like WP!

    I hope to try Ranch Pleasure next year with my cow horse ( we currently show in American Stock Horse Association). Hopefully, the class preserve the integrity of the working horse and not devolve.



  17. #37
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    Feb. 26, 2011
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    NC
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    Do working ranches have a use for those slow moving downhill horses, or are they strictly bred for the show pen? If the later, I think there is a whole "western" industry that doesn't honor the western horse at all, but has invented a horse of its own.

    BTW, did anyone else note in the article the comment about slow being pinned high because it's DIFFICULT. I thought a pleasure horse was by definition easy to ride.



  18. #38
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    Dec. 6, 2012
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    Default Went to a AQHA, ApHC and APHA show this weekend

    In the first western pleasure class the judges called everyone's attention to them, and announced that they WOULD be looking for forward moving horses in all pleasure classes. They did mention that they could/would call for the extension, however it might mean that only one or two horses in the ring might need to step it up a gear.

    And you know what, they actually did it! The hopping, sideways loping horses didn't place, and the horses who's riders were 'correcting' got nocked down a placing or two.

    I think the biggest thing about this show is the huge mix of competitors that were there. There were some top AQHA, APHC and ApHC horses along with top reiners, Arabians and 'open' show people. The AQHA breed show competitors that chose to do the crappy lope were easy to not place because there were quality horses that were loping correctly. It did however mean that by the time our horsemanship was called there were only 2 of us Novice Amateurs left, everyone else had packed up and gone home.

    One of the judges is judging the AQHA world show this year.....


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  19. #39
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    What show was that? I went to a local show and heard a similar story. Lots of the "outside" horses were pinning and the regular bnt's with horses who had their heads on the ground did not pin.



  20. #40
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    Default seat and legs

    Quote Originally Posted by aktill View Post
    You sound like you're actually riding from your seat. The fact that the rules are so distorted that people have created an entirely new aid (the spur stop) that has no place in ANY other discipline shows how pointless reins are in the whole sport. Why have them at all then?
    Hmmm, I don't think it's just seat. And spur "stop" is sortof a misnomer. Here's how it works. All with spurs. (mine are blunt rowels unless he's not paying attention-then we go to the pointy ones-my legs are old...)

    Light bumps to get started (stop to walk), another light bump or several to jog, outside spur roll to lope. Inside leg supports (calf). PRESS with both spurs at any gait to lift the belly and stay collected. This usually results in a slow down and a head lower (i.e., back up/head down). If I want to actually stop-close both legs and both spurs and lightly lift my hand (sound familiar?). Say whoa. If you're riding him, hang on because it's a dead stop from any gait!
    ~~~~~*~*~*~*~*~
    “ride your own horse” from sayings for life.



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