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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    That is also my interpretation. The allegations include that Heritage covered up lameness so the pony could show.

    Yes... I think it would just be something that happens if you got an invoice with 1,700 for HS meds in one month that would raise some kind of eyebrow
    Train like you have never won and show like you have never lost!!!


    4 members found this post helpful.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by searching12321 View Post
    My "attitude" comes from a bunch of people who don't know the entire story throwing blame etc onto a trainer. Like Heritage or not, this is their livelihood and bashing them on a public forum isn't kind or ethical.

    Let things play out in the courts. Remember in this country, we are presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty.


    I am not blaming anyone. I am questioning the invoice. Heritage is a professional business in which they have clients. Having clients question charges is normal.
    Train like you have never won and show like you have never lost!!!


    3 members found this post helpful.

  3. #203
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    Jul. 21, 1999
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    Houston, Texas
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    Sloppy was the word that came to my mind about the complaint, too.

    As for discussing the invoices, Heritage, through its lawyers, made the decision to put the invoices in the public record. The folks at Heritage are certainly aware of the current focus of the USEF and its members on overuse and misuse of drugs and medications at shows, as shown by the USEF town hall on Monday. These are invoices from a BNT from some of the biggest show circuits in the country, which most of us don't get to see but are now in the public record. It may all be perfectly legitimate, but you can't really blame people for noting the amounts charged for unspecified "HS Medications."
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #204
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    Jul. 21, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by searching12321 View Post
    My "attitude" comes from a bunch of people who don't know the entire story throwing blame etc onto a trainer. Like Heritage or not, this is their livelihood and bashing them on a public forum isn't kind or ethical.

    Let things play out in the courts. Remember in this country, we are presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty.
    I don't see anyone "bashing" Heritage Farm. They are discussing a legal case, and the documentation related to it, that presents some interesting (and topical) aspects.

    You seem a bit emotional.. are you a young person? Relax. I'm sure that everyone involved is capable of looking after themselves and that their problems won't be exacerbated by a discussion on COTH..


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #205
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    Aug. 14, 2000
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    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
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    Here is the pony's show schedule for 1 year. I figure it must have jumped about 100 jumps or more per show for many, many weeks. Talk about WORK!
    Now with dates for show start

    Total number of shows between 1-25-2012 and 2-16-2013

    Horse first appears at Jacksonville in 2012.
    1. Winter A-Z 1-25-2012
    8 classes, all Green Pony

    2. Ocala Premier--9 classes 1-31-2012
    6 Green
    3 Pony Schooling

    3. Ocala Winter Classic (new rider and excellent results) 2-07-2012 (8 classes total)
    6 Small Green--Champion Small Green in the Championship Class
    2 Schooling--1 DNP, 1 of 21 Green Pony

    4. Ocala Winter Festival 2-14-2012 (another new rider and a couple of classes with the first Ocala rider) (9 classes total)
    6 Small Green-- Champion
    3 schooling

    5. Ocala Tournament 2-28-2012 (same two riders--one for Small and one for Small Green) (15 total classes)
    6 classes as a small and doesn't make the Championship Class
    Did not place in the Small Classic
    7 classes as small green and is Reserve Champion in the Championship Class
    Pony Hunter Classic DNP
    two schooling classes with the second rider--DNP

    6. Ocala Winter Finals 3-6-2012 (one of the above two riders) (13 total classes)
    8 classes as a Small and Reserve Champion in the Championship Class
    7 classes in Small Green and Champion in the Championship Class

    7. Ocala Winter Celebration 3-12-2012 (14 classes total)
    7 classes as a Small. Did not make the Championship Class (same rider as the Winter Finals)
    7 classes as a Small Green, one with the Small rider, and six with the other rider at the Tournament. Reserve in the Championship Class
    One schooling Pony class-8th

    Pony is sold by Redfield Farms to Bibby Hill

    8. WEF 12 3-28-2012--Dildabanian kid rides (5 total classes)
    5 Small Green Classes. One 1st, one 2nd

    Pony is sold to Dildabanians

    9. Hunter Farms Spring Classic 4-25-2012 (6 classes)
    7 Small Green Classes. Four 1sts, one second, and won the Championship class

    10. Old Salem Farm May 1 5-8-2012 (8 total classes)
    6 Small Green Classes with 3 entries. Two firsts, two 3rds and one 2nd. Second in the Championship class
    2 Schooling Pony Hunter classes (all sizes), 52 entries. DNP

    11. Old Salem Farm, May 2 5-15-2012 (7 total classes)
    5 Small Green Classes with 5 entries each. One 2nd, one 3rd, one 4th, two 5ths
    2 Pony schooling all sizes--60+ entrants DNP

    12. HITS on the Hudson II 5-30-2-12 (17 total classes)
    7 Small classes (15 to 18 entrants)
    One 2nd, one 5th, two 6ths, one 7th and one 9th
    7 Small/Medium Green classes (7 entrants except for one class with 8.
    Three 1sts, one 2nd, one 6th and one 7th. Won the Championship class
    3 Schooling-Small
    24 entries, DNP
    24 entries, 6th
    12 entries, 4th
    Pony Medal
    20 entries, DNP

    13. HITS on the Hudson III 6-6-2012 (10 total classes)
    6 Small Classes (19, 20 entrants)
    one 3rd, one 4th, one 6th and 3 DNPs
    Misc Small
    WIHS Pony Medal
    7th of 15
    Schooling Small
    DNP of 18
    1 of 17
    2nd of 18 in the Schooling Championship Class
    USEF Pony Medal
    4th of 17

    14. Brandywine Valley Summer Series 6-27-2012 (6 total classes)
    6 Small Classes (9-11 entrants
    Three 1sts, one 2nd, one 7th and won the Championship Class
    USEF Pony Medal
    6th of 12

    15. HITS on the Hudson IV 7-18-2012 (11 total classes)
    6 Small classes (16, 17 entrants)
    Two 5ths, one 6th, three DNPs
    and 5 of 8 in one class
    Misc Small
    WIHS Medal DNP of 21
    Schooling Small DNP of 22, DNP of 21, 3rd of 12
    USEF Medal DNP of 18

    16. HITS on the Hudson V 7-25-2012 (19 total classes)
    6 Small classes
    7 of 18, 4 of 21, DNP of 21, 7 of 16, 1 of 16, DNP of 8
    7 Small Green classes
    2 of 7, 1 of 7, 1 of 7, 1 of 6, 1 of 6, DNP of 4
    1 in the Championship class
    Misc
    WIHS Medal 2 of 11
    Schooling Pony, Small
    DNP of 30, DNP of 31, 4 of 18
    Green Pony Schooling
    4 of 17, DNP of 12
    USEF Pony Medal
    1 of 22

    17. New York Horse & Pony 8-01-2012 (9 total classes)
    7 Small classes (5 entrants)
    1 of 5, 2 of 5, 2 of 5, 3 of 5, 3 of 5, 3 of 5, 5 of 5
    Misc
    WIHS Medal
    DNP of 9
    USEF Pony Medal
    7 of 11

    18. Pony Finals 8-06-2012 (7 total classes)
    Small Green classes
    28 of 57, 9 of 57, 15 of 56
    Overall Results
    13 of 57
    Misc.
    Riders 10 and Under--Green Ponies
    7 of 10
    Small Green, Section B Model
    DNP of 57
    Small Green Sec. B, U/S
    DNP of 57
    Small Green Sec. B O/F
    DNP of 57
    Small Green, Sec. B
    DNP of 57
    Combined Model, U/S
    16 of 57

    19. Old Salem Overpeck, September 9-26-2012 98 total classes)
    4 Small Classes
    1 of 26, DNP of 26, 7 of 26, 1 of 26, 1 in Championship class
    Green Pony--Small/Medium 2 classes
    DNP of 4, DNP of 4
    Green Pony--Small 2 classes
    2 of 4, 3 of 4
    Pony Hunter Classic
    DNP of 48

    20. SFHJA Annual Charity (Fla) 11-21-2012 (10 total classes)
    6 Small classes
    1 of 12, 2 of 12, 4 of 12, 8 of 12, 1 of 12, DNP of 12, 1 iin Championship Class
    Pony Classic
    DNP of 33
    Misc
    Schooling Pony (2 classes)
    6 of 19, DNP of 15
    WIHS Equitation
    7 of 7
    USEF Pony Medal
    1 of 9

    2013

    21. ESP A-T Childrens' Benefit 1-02-2013 7 total classes
    6 Small Classes
    3 of 18, DNP of 18, 1 of 18, 7 of 18, 1 of 18, 1 in Championship Class
    Misc
    SFHJA Pony Hunt Seat Medal
    DNP of 1 entry.

    22. WEF 1 1-09-2013
    6 Small classes
    3 of 29, DNP of 29, 1 of 29, DNP of 29, DNP of 29, 2 in Championship Class

    23. WEF 2 1-16-2013
    5 Small classes
    2 of 26, DNP of 26, DNP of 26, DNP of 26, 2 of 26

    24. WEF 4 1-30-2013
    5 Small classes
    2 of 17, 6 of 17, 1 of 17, DNP of 17, DNP of 17

    25. WEF5 2-06-2013
    5 Small
    8 of 33, DNP of 33, 5 of 33, DNP of 33, DNP of 33

    26. WEF 6 2-13-2013 (Last Show)
    4 Small
    DNP of 31 in 3, and DNP of 29 in one.

    Comments?
    Last edited by vineyridge; Jun. 6, 2013 at 12:28 PM.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  6. #206
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    Jan. 13, 2008
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    Comments?

    How high are the jumps and how many per course?

    Without doing my homework here .... pony size vs rider weight and ability vs course height and number of jumps ....

    I think it is beyond excessive. It is a horrid nightmare for the pony. I can't imagine many ponies being able to stand up to that type of regime for very long. Sorry.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  7. #207
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    Mar. 19, 2006
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    VA / NJ
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    VR, if you are going to be totalling up how many jumps and classes the pony endured, perhaps you should be aware that in a division there is no championship "class". It is just points totalled from the division. At some of those shows one of the classes would be a model, and one an under saddle, not too much jumping involved there. Jumps are 2'3, 8 jumps avg per course. 2'3 is not really a gargantuan effort for a pony.They are also showing on manicured footing.
    What would have been a better evaluation would be to attach dates to those shows. There are pretty long breaks between some of those shows.
    The SFHJA show is at Thanksgiving. Pretty sure that the ESP AT show isn't until the end of January. Thats not so bad. Shown in September, then not again until Thanksgiving?? I don't think that is excessive. Pony Finals is early August, then not shown again until September.....not a bad gig for a pony. looks like pony showed 20 times in one year. Less than twice a month.
    The ponies start showing at WEF on Friday afternoon. Smalls are done Sunday morning. Pony gets hacked, etc maybe one lesson until Friday again.It is true that during WEF most horses work pretty hard. As an aside, I am pretty sure that they changed trainers either right before WEF, or during. So the every week showing at WEF may not have been the call of the defendants.
    Ponies kept in good health often have VERY long careers, into their twenties showing is not unusual. Most are a good percentage Welsh, a very hearty breed once used to carry large men down into coal mines. They are not delicate types.
    www.midatlanticeq.com
    Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
    November 13-15, 2015


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #208
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    May. 5, 2009
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    Location: Indiana, but my heart is in Zone II
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    In my non vet opinion, it is too many for this 6 year old pony with all the meds it is on. Some may be preventative but that's a damn awful lot for a young, healthy pony with no known soundness issue.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies


    10 members found this post helpful.

  9. #209
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    Mar. 19, 2006
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    VA / NJ
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    Unfortunately for the ponies, one of the main goals their owners have is to get them into indoors/Devon. This means the total points for your best 15 shows. Because of overzealous pony moms and their trainers that want their ponies into Devon and indoors some of the ponies show almost every week. The number of points to get a pony into Devon is often double that to get, say a junior hunter in, and triple some divisions.
    Looking at that schedule again, it looks like the pony had a more believable schedule prior to when i believe the trainer switch occurred. Looks like they were pushing to get into Devon which if they thought pony had foot problems may have accelerated the problem.
    Most AA show barns put all their horses on Adequan, Legend etc as preventative maintenance. Seeing that a pony was on that doesn't necessarily indicate a problem. Its pretty typical for many barns.
    www.midatlanticeq.com
    Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
    November 13-15, 2015



  10. #210
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    Sep. 12, 2007
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    And for those of you that think this is a taxing schedule for a pony with foot problems you left one the "preparation." Hours longing then, an adult rider rides and jumps him, and then another kid might ride him before the show.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  11. #211
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    Sep. 12, 2006
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    Virginia
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    to those who think maybe it's not a taxing schedule and that 2'3" is not a big effort for a small... well it can be. 2'3" is in fact a pretty big jump for a small pony adding in the division striding which is pretty forward, and being in a big program like that I'm sure it had alot of adult and pony jock pro rides. Yes sure I would expect that a pony may not be able to hold up to that schedule. Why do you see so many ponies who have to "step down" to children's after a year or two doing the division. I know MANY ponies who are so burned out from doing the division they become stoppers, even at the lower heights.

    All that being said, it's kinda irrelevant. The pony showed a pretty typical big barn show schedule... and the plaintiff is alleging that the pony has a pre-existing condition, not that it was caused by this schedule.
    Last edited by Mayaty02; Jun. 6, 2013 at 08:39 AM.



  12. #212
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    Mar. 19, 2006
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    VA / NJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by leyla25 View Post
    And for those of you that think this is a taxing schedule for a pony with foot problems you left one the "preparation." Hours longing then, an adult rider rides and jumps him, and then another kid might ride him before the show.
    Though that may be true, has to be called speculation I think. Some ponies get lunged, some don't. Some get ridden frequently, some don't.

    If one is going to say that participating in 6 jumping classes spread out over three days is excessive, then you would have to say that the current protocol and structure of divisions at today's horse shows is excessive in general. You can certainly say that if you want, but you would have to change the whole structure of competition if you feel that way.

    @May, I don't think there is an excessive amout of ponies that do a couple of years of the real ponies then step down to the childrens. Most that I've seen do that were just never competitive enough to begin with in the real division and their people finally get the message. They get tired of never getting a jog. Certainly older ponies step down to the childrens, just like old jumpers step down to the low jumpers or the equitation. I have found that the majority of ponies are pretty natural jumpers and 2'3" is not a big deal to them. Just my experience.
    For those that think 20 shows a year for a pony hunter is excessive, how many shows do you think is acceptable to stay within your guidelines of horse care?
    www.midatlanticeq.com
    Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
    November 13-15, 2015


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #213
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    Sep. 12, 2007
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    Chunky no speculation in my part. I know from having ridden/worked in the specific barn discussed here that no pony leaves the barn to show without "its preparation" it is not done. A pro or working student rides it and then a kid. And all get lunged.


    14 members found this post helpful.

  14. #214
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    Sep. 12, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by chunky munky View Post
    @May, I don't think there is an excessive amout of ponies that do a couple of years of the real ponies then step down to the childrens. Most that I've seen do that were just never competitive enough to begin with in the real division and their people finally get the message. They get tired of never getting a jog. Certainly older ponies step down to the childrens, just like old jumpers step down to the low jumpers or the equitation. I have found that the majority of ponies are pretty natural jumpers and 2'3" is not a big deal to them. Just my experience.
    And my experience is different, and in fact most of the ponies I know who are stepping down were winners. In fact... one that I know of who burned out was one of the top in the country and was only 8 when it flamed out. But again, no reason to really argue the point, it was a division pony doing a division schedule... but the allegation was the pony has a pre-existing condition that caused the lameness, not the heavy schedule.
    Last edited by Mayaty02; Jun. 6, 2013 at 09:00 AM.


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  15. #215
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    I expect what you are saying is true but I can assure you that this is not true in all show barns, particularly with the seasoned ponies. Many are preserved carefully with alternative methods of preparation that do not include lunging or anything much more than light hacks that are not as hard on them.
    My guess is the pony in question was pressed pretty hard because the owner having claimed it was an investment was vested in having it win a lot in order to increase its value. That mentality and all that goes with it can be hard on a pony for sure.
    www.midatlanticeq.com
    Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
    November 13-15, 2015


    4 members found this post helpful.

  16. #216
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    Aug. 21, 2012
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    Virginia
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    I rode on the A circuit for many (recent) years and never once drugged a horse or pony. Why do people feel the need to accept "horse show medication" when, in reality, no horse really needs any "normal" meds specifically for horse shows unless you are drugging the animal to compete


    6 members found this post helpful.

  17. #217
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    That show schedule just makes me very, very, sad. No wonder the pony was lame, and possibly foundered.

    I bought a pony, she was 4 and had gone to the Trillium Championships (B rated show) as a 4 year old in the large pony div. She did well...then 2 years later bucked off every kid that got on her. 2 years after that she foundered so bad she could never be ridden again. Too much work at that age.


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  18. #218
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    That's a very typical show schedule. Quite a few weeks off and 20 shows a year.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by searching12321 View Post
    Let things play out in the courts. Remember in this country, we are presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty.

    To clarify this only applies in courts who have the ability to take away your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. It has nothing to do with public opinion or actual guilt.

    If I take a saddle from a tack shop without paying, I'm a thief. I'm not guilty in a court yet and might can get out of it by saying I thought I was borrowing it or that my trainer was going to pay for it. But whether or not the court finds me guilty doesn't change the fact that I stole the saddle. It's a similar situation for public opinion. I can believe Heritage is guilty and really screwed this lady. I can also tell people based on what I've read I believe they are guilty and that i wouldn't do business with them. There is not a requirement for me to presume they are innocent only for the court to do that.

    As a side note I don't think they are guilty of any wrong doing. The lady just had a pony go lame, it happens.


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  20. #220
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    Rate My Horse Pro posted this on their Facebook too. Comments from pony's owner on that thread.
    EDDIE WOULD GO



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