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  1. #641
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    It does come up in the German name. The EU/Germany requires all horses to carry passports. There have always been many small, regional registries that cater to the people in their areas. That's why most of the German registries have Areas as their names. This was a merger of Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, Berlin-Brandenburg, and Thuringia, all of which had long had registries.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  2. #642
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    Well what is the definition of "diligently searched and inquired"?
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng


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  3. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Not if the person is saying before a notary that s/he has diligently searched and inquired for the information that is listed.
    I don't think that wording would make a difference. You can search "diligently" and still not find, especially if you are a poor searcher.

    I have searched diligently for my sunglasses and not found them, until a friend pointed out that they were on top of my head..


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  4. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    Well, smack me upside the head, then. and also Seriously? Another registry for what? All the others that exist couldn't cover the bases? Ridiculous.

    (they need to do a better job of getting their google ad words out there because you search German Sport Horse and get nothing. It should be a first result...if it wants to be legitimate.
    In their defense, they speak German as a primary language in Germany. And the term "Deutsche Sportpferd" quite literally translates to "German Sporthorse." So they did name their registry "German Sporthorse," they just named it that IN GERMAN. And I am not sure I feel comfortable faulting a German registry for a failure to include sufficient English on their website to get google hits in English. Most websites in another language are aimed at people who speak that language and come up in searches done in that language. If you fault someone, fault the person who filled out the USEF registration and didn't put "Deutsche Sportpferd" rather than "German Sport Horse," but I can't really personally fault the registry for not translating its name to English for the convinence of people searching for their website. COTH's website probably doesn't come up if you search for "Chronicle of the Horse" in French. Is that COTH's fault?
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  5. #645
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    You search AND Inquire. Here, they could have just ASKED.

    Florida Case:
    an honest and conscientious effort, reasonably appropriate to the circumstances, must be made to acquire the information necessary...
    It is basic that to constitute diligent search and inquiry to discover the whereabouts of a party, that inquiry should be made of persons likely or presumed to known such whereabouts.
    Same definition applies to requests for information in discovery.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  6. #646
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    According to a member of one of my committees at school, if students read and sign an honesty policy or statement right before they take a test, they are less apt to cheat on said test. So, maybe having people read and sign a statement that gives the rules regarding "one horse - one ID" would help both as a reminder of the rule and a ethics in general.

    There is a group of people that are going to disobey the rules (or cheat on tests) pretty much no matter what. Having rules, making people aware of them, and keeping an eye on things will not do much, if anything, for that group; however, it will help with the majority of people.
    The Evil Chem Prof


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  7. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    You search AND Inquire. Here, they could have just ASKED.

    Florida Case:



    Same definition applies to requests for information in discovery.
    And the person swearing to this is going to know the exact legal standard of what they are swearing to? To a lay person, "diligent inquiry" may well mean, "well, I dunno, the seller totally said."

    There is no need for any of this swearing and notarizing if every horse just gets a microchip and one recording number and the stewards do a sweep every show. There will be no point in lying because you will just be caught the second you try to get in the in-gate.

    Every last shamateur checks the box and signs on the dotted line after all the legalese mumbo jumbo on the form, and that doesn't stop them in the slightest. There is sadly no microchip for everytime you get paid to teach or train.


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  8. #648
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    I agree that microchipping is an answer and a verification at shows will id the horse. But each microchip has to be linked to a database that carries all the information. In the case of horses with European backgrounds, that would be difficult. The whole point of such a detailed form is to get people to think and do background research which is then put in the hands of the USEF, which will then have everything in one place or accessible from one place.

    People who want to cheat are going to cheat. It just should be easier to catch them, punish them enough to deter others, and make examples of them.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  9. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    It does come up in the German name. The EU/Germany requires all horses to carry passports. There have always been many small, regional registries that cater to the people in their areas. That's why most of the German registries have Areas as their names. This was a merger of Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, Berlin-Brandenburg, and Thuringia, all of which had long had registries.
    In the German name? That's helpful.


    Although after doing a few other searches: most of the german registries only come up on the first page if you include verband...so I'll cut them some slack on that.

    However, after looking at the home page, is German Sporthorse the equivalent of one of the catch-all warmblood registries we have in the U.S.? OMG, there are drafties, haffies, welsh, etc, etc, etc on the page. Maybe I'm on the wrong page?
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"


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  10. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    In the German name? That's helpful.


    Although after doing a few other searches: most of the german registries only come up on the first page if you include verband...so I'll cut them some slack on that.

    However, after looking at the home page, is German Sporthorse the equivalent of one of the catch-all warmblood registries we have in the U.S.? OMG, there are drafties, haffies, welsh, etc, etc, etc on the page. Maybe I'm on the wrong page?

    As best as I can tell (and my German is limited to begin with and on top of that I don't know a particularly large amount of German horse words) the registry was created when a bunch of smaller German registries came together (Berlin-Brandenburg, Saxony-Anhalt, Saxony and Thuringia). You will occasionally come across a Saxon-Anhalt or Thuringian but they're by no means big huge common registries like, say Hanoverian. Same idea though. Hanoverian is the registry in Hanover Germany. Saxony-Anhalt is the registry for the Saxony-Anhalt state of Germany. They were all kind of smallish registries so they merged books. Their standards are the same as most European registries, type rather than breed. They have both pony books and horse books. I don't see anything particularly different about this registry as compared to other German registries.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  11. #651
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    Based on a data set of one, getting the European info via a microchip was the easy part. It was figuring out what the horse had done on North American soil after a name change (or two?) that was the problem.

    Thread: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...number-success!

    The country came up when the vet scanned the chip and, once we figured out the registry, I was able to email them and get the horse's European record. Thank you vet who scans every horse she does a PPE on!
    The Evil Chem Prof



  12. #652
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    When we were redeveloping the web site my nerd squad was convinced we should have a Search by Breed option, and despite my vehement disagreement they went ahead and tried to put together a list of "breed" names...

    Pointless. A) They're not breeds. B) I discover 2-3 new ones each year.

    So does German Sport Horse cover the Brandenburgs? How about the Luxemburgs? Mecklenburgs?

    See where I'm going with this....

    Because all regions of Germany have been historically great at A) tracking lineages and B) improving their bloodlines, I have no problem with the catchall German Sport Horse. In fact, I bet I'm going to be a big fan, 'cause now I won't have to google to remind myself whether it is Luxemburg, Luxemberg, or Luxembourg.

    If AWS breeders put half as much thought into the science of producing better horses I'd give the them (or whatever the latest catchall American WB registry fad is) some recognition, but they don't. I'm willing to bet the German Sport Horse registry will strive to uphold the same sport horse breeding standards the region has been known for for centuries.
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  13. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    I agree that microchipping is an answer and a verification at shows will id the horse. But each microchip has to be linked to a database that carries all the information. In the case of horses with European backgrounds, that would be difficult. The whole point of such a detailed form is to get people to think and do background research which is then put in the hands of the USEF, which will then have everything in one place or accessible from one place.

    People who want to cheat are going to cheat. It just should be easier to catch them, punish them enough to deter others, and make examples of them.

    Why would identifying European horses be difficult? In order to get into the US, a horse needs a passport and the chip number is written right in the passport. The more interesting question is, "Why isn't the passport transferred with the horse upon sale?" When I bought my 2+ year old, I was sent his registration papers and his passport. It is what I expected to receive. Had the passport not come with him, I would have questioned its omission. Is there an honest reason why a passport would not be transferred with the horse? I can't think of one.

    And "losing the passport" is malarky. Do these people lose their own passports? Do they lose the horse's Coggins? Or the Bill Of Sale? I just read COTH article about Devon Jr Weekend. It was very sad that on ALL BUT ONE horse, the breeding was listed as "unknown".

    Bullshit.
    "I used to have money, now I have horses."


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  14. #654
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    ^Not that this is the case for a lot of those horses, as I don't know, but I will say that I have repeatedly given the USEF the information for my mare's breeding and breeder, but they have yet to change it (even after acknowledging that it was correct). I mean, years later and they haven't changed it, even after phone calls, e-mails, and letters.

    I'm sure that's not the case with [all of] those horses, but there is definitely a large degree of inefficiency in the USEF's record keeping.

    This being the same organization that refused to correct a result for me that stated a pony was 6th out of 5.. I mean, really?! There were 5 in the class. The pony wasn't THAT bad of a mover to be 6th out of 5.

    Edited to add: I just checked again and my mare still seems to be of unknown breeding. It is almost exactly 3 years since I started telling them the info needed to be changed. I give up.
    Last edited by supershorty628; Jun. 13, 2013 at 08:45 AM.


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  15. #655
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    Quote Originally Posted by supershorty628 View Post
    This being the same organization that refused to correct a result for me that stated a pony was 6th out of 5.. I mean, really?!
    This is both horrifying and yet totally unsurprising. USEF never fails to amaze me - and not in a good way.


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  16. #656
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    Quote Originally Posted by supershorty628 View Post
    ^Not that this is the case for a lot of those horses, as I don't know, but I will say that I have repeatedly given the USEF the information for my mare's breeding and breeder, but they have yet to change it (even after acknowledging that it was correct). I mean, years later and they haven't changed it, even after phone calls, e-mails, and letters.

    I'm sure that's not the case with [all of] those horses, but there is definitely a large degree of inefficiency in the USEF's record keeping.

    This being the same organization that refused to correct a result for me that stated a pony was 6th out of 5.. I mean, really?! There were 5 in the class. The pony wasn't THAT bad of a mover to be 6th out of 5.
    I have had a similar experience. On the paper USEF form, I filled out the correct information for my gelding's sire. Somehow when it was inputted to the USEF website, it was misspelled. I alerted them and it took months and months to be correct. No huge deal, but just agreeing that the website seems to lag behind requests for clarification/fixing info.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  17. #657
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    Wow... sounds like it's time for a good, old-fashioned cleaning house party at the USEF. Who are these people?


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  18. #658
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    And, on the flip side of the coin, they SCRUTINIZED my other horse's ownership change like no one's business. I bought a horse with a lifetime registry who was shown as being owned by a partnership of A and B. I bought him and got a bill of sale from B, on behalf of both the partners. I sent the info into the USEF and they rejected and it and had me go back and get a bill of sale from A as well. A complied and then the transfer of ownership went through. I actually didn't mind the USEF paying attention (even though one partner signing on behalf of the partnership OUGHT to suffice)... but it seems odd that SOMETIMES they are dotting all the "i"s and crossing the "t"s and other times they're shrugging their shoulders at checking into anything.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  19. #659
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    As a breeder this is really aggravating. It is all about the money. They change the horses names because in Europe the bloodlines are really traceable....most are letter specific. Meaning if you have a horse with an R name you pretty much know and can find the breeding. They change them so that you cannot trace them and then they don't lose their EDGE. They have people they deal with directly like Benny Reuters (SP?) and others that funnel them horses. Let's face it they are not "green". Most say Warmblood or whatever registry with unknown all over the place. It is really pretty silly.

    MONEY rules people.
    The rider casts his heart over the fence,
    the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

    –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart


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  20. #660
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    As I understand it, the EU requires registration of all equines somewhere. Each EU country has to have a process to ensure registration. In Germany, the existing registries have to provide registration for all equines in their local areas. So even Hanover has to register drafts, mixed bloods, etc.

    HOWEVER, again, as far as I understand it, they simply take the names and issue registration passports and put those animals in a cordoned off part of their records--a special book just for them. Those animals are NOT inspected or approved for breeding. Now, when you buy a horse from Germany, you not only need to know what registry issued the passport, but also what Book the animal has been placed in. Just because a horse's passport is issued by one of the Germany registries, doesn't mean that the horse has gone through the normal processes to make it eligible for breeding, or that it comes from parents who have gone through that process although it will show up in their passport.

    Another change is that the EU considers branding animal abuse. That's why in Germany all foals are now microchipped, although the German breeders and registries are still (IIRC) fighting to keep their brands. I also believe that they are losing or have already lost that fight. So there is a very good chance that the brands of German horses will not be available for ID in the future.

    Microchips are the wave of the future, and the US better start riding it.



    My understanding may be completely wrong, but that's what I've gathered. The EU requirements have changed many, many things in many countries. If I'm wrong, I hope someone who is there and understands what is going on will post.

    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    In the German name? That's helpful.


    Although after doing a few other searches: most of the german registries only come up on the first page if you include verband...so I'll cut them some slack on that.

    However, after looking at the home page, is German Sporthorse the equivalent of one of the catch-all warmblood registries we have in the U.S.? OMG, there are drafties, haffies, welsh, etc, etc, etc on the page. Maybe I'm on the wrong page?
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


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