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  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by wanderlust View Post
    Which, looking at that USEF record alone, would still have qualified her for the 2nd years.
    Yes, but it is a disingenuous argument to say that the buyers were aware of the USEF record and that record made her eligible for 2nd year Greens, but were NOT aware that the horse already had a USEF registration number. Is it plausible that the horse's competitions at WEF did not come up in conversation during the sales process?
    Last edited by 2bayboys; Jun. 12, 2013 at 10:04 AM.
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  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by wanderlust View Post
    Which, looking at that USEF record alone, would still have qualified her for the 2nd years.
    But not for a new recording number!
    ~Veronica
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    7 members found this post helpful.

  3. #603
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    At least they didn't dye her black and add a sock or two...
    Barn rat for life

    The Big Horse


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #604
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    And another thing! That article makes the USEF sound so f%&$king incompetent I almost threw up in my mouth.

    What IS THE POINT of registration if such little (any?) documentation is required. And how can you forbid something but then put nothing in place to prevent it from happening?!



    I just dont get it.
    Barn rat for life

    The Big Horse


    6 members found this post helpful.

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by SueL View Post
    Competition record in the US would have indeed made her eligible as a second yer green horse. If USEF overlooks European results, that is a huge issue. If overlooking what was done in Europe is an "industry standard" that is also a huge issue. Enforcement has to come from the federation. It's their job to create a level playing field. Winking at the European records of imported records - that's not good.
    Bold is mine.

    That sounds like a really wonderful excuse for horse shopping in Europe. Whatever they may have done over there magically goes away "poof," and they arrive on American soil several years younger and green, green, green.

    If I was an American breeder I'd really be royally PO'd.

    I'm on record that as soon as a horse has a record in shows he keeps the name he was originally registered with. Such a shame to erase all the breeding and all of the show record of this obviously very talented mare.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  6. #606
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    Ok, look at it this way.

    Without her competition record in Europe, she would not have been eligible for the CCI**s she did with Karen O'Connor.

    But with the competition record from Europe she wasn't eligible for the second year greens.

    So do I understand that people can pick or choose when they use the record or when they ignore it? Doesn't seem quite right to me


    20 members found this post helpful.

  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmedHope View Post
    Competing in the 1.30 in WEF 2012 would make her ineligible to compete in 2nd year greens this year correct?
    NOOO

    Competing over 3'6" in 2011 makes her not 2nd year Green in 2013.


    Mokes no difference at all what height she competed in 2012.

    But if you are talking about a hypothetical horse that did NOT jump 3'6" + in 2011, then jumping 1.3m in 2012 would make her 1st year Green in 2012 and 2nd year Green in 2013.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  8. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddygirl View Post
    Ok, look at it this way.

    Without her competition record in Europe, she would not have been eligible for the CCI**s she did with Karen O'Connor.

    But with the competition record from Europe she wasn't eligible for the second year greens.

    So do I understand that people can pick or choose when they use the record or when they ignore it? Doesn't seem quite right to me
    Well put.

    I love the part where they get all wide eyed and incredulous and go, "we had NO IDEA the three-day horses were REGISTERED??!"

    Oh lol.
    Like USEF would let an Olympic discipline happen without registrations.


    17 members found this post helpful.

  9. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by betonbill View Post
    Bold is mine.

    That sounds like a really wonderful excuse for horse shopping in Europe. Whatever they may have done over there magically goes away "poof," and they arrive on American soil several years younger and green, green, green.

    If I was an American breeder I'd really be royally PO'd.

    I'm on record that as soon as a horse has a record in shows he keeps the name he was originally registered with. Such a shame to erase all the breeding and all of the show record of this obviously very talented mare.
    It is not an excuse. It happens. One horse/one number/chipping the horse and looking into European records (the competition records CAN be transferred to USEF) is the answer. Changing a name isn't a big deal. Keeping the number, the breeding info is. I looked up Rose Hill - her name WAS changed. But look her up on USEF - sire, dam, breeder all there. New owners did it right.
    "Horsemanship is not merely a matter of bodily skills, but is based on scholarship and, therefore, is a matter of the mind and intellect." Charles de Kunffy

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    3 members found this post helpful.

  10. #610
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    Well, newly imported Salto Mortale is in 1st year Green when he had been competing in Europe over 4' since 2010. He burst on the US scene a prodigy. So yes, US bred horses can be at a disadvantage, given their genuine greenness.

    I'd also venture to guess that most European horses, certainly German ones, are started with pure dressage training. That would certainly reflect in their adjustability and rideability.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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    6 members found this post helpful.

  11. #611
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    Here is the mare competing in 2011. Such a pretty jumper, I can see why her future is in the hunter ring. Not eligible for 2nd Year Green though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RyN278nv



  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by PonyPenny View Post
    Here is the mare competing in 2011. Such a pretty jumper, I can see why her future is in the hunter ring. Not eligible for 2nd Year Green though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RyN278nv
    Is that link wrong? Or did it magically go POOF after it was posted here?



  13. #613
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    And the TB doesn't fit into the business plan. That darn traceable tatoo and all.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  14. #614
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    Where they've got all Hell for a basement
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    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #615
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    Her canter is sick. What an awesome horse
    Barn rat for life

    The Big Horse


    3 members found this post helpful.

  16. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by betonbill View Post

    That sounds like a really wonderful excuse for horse shopping in Europe. Whatever they may have done over there magically goes away "poof," and they arrive on American soil several years younger and green, green, green.

    If I was an American breeder I'd really be royally PO'd.

    I'm on record that as soon as a horse has a record in shows he keeps the name he was originally registered with. Such a shame to erase all the breeding and all of the show record of this obviously very talented mare.
    Trust me on this - we are mad as hell. We've been mad as hell for years (and years, and years). We can get as mad as we possibly can, and it's not going to change a single thing. There aren't enough of us. The only thing that can affect change is when the majority of the rank and file get mad too, and understand that for the good of the sport, and for all future production of sporthorses in this country, breeders have to be able to track performance. And not just the good ones - we need to know about those horses we bred that are below par performers as well.

    But on this very thread, a judge stated that we (those that find this Amber Eyes RF incident a big, upsetting deal) disgust her. Because it's just a clerical thing....after all, the horse wasn't drugged, jugged, or dead. If there was ever one single post that told me in no uncertain terms this will never be fixed, that was the one.
    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin


    23 members found this post helpful.

  17. #617
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    How would this be for a proposed Rule?

    Every application for a new horse recording shall be accompanied by the following document: a notarized affidavit from the person seeking registration that he/she has diligently searched and inquired into the horse's competition record and background in the United States and foreign and international (FEI) jurisdictions, and that the results of that investigation are reflected in the following, which shall be provided with the sworn affidavit.:

    Horse breed and registry
    Horse name as registered with registry
    Horse Breeder Name and Address
    Horse Age
    USEF Affilated Organization identification numbers
    USEF Affiliated Organization competition records linked to those Affiliated Organization Identification Numbers
    Identification numbers from other United States Equestrian organizations (such as breed registries and associations) not affiliated with the USEF
    Competition records (other than racing) associated with the Identification numbers from other United States equestrian organizations (such as breed registries and associations) not affiliated with the USEF.
    Horse UELN (Universal Equine Lifetime Number)
    Horse Microchip number and jurisdiction to which it is linked.
    Horse record ID numbers with all National Equestrian Governing bodies under whose authority it has competed, and a copy of any associated Passport.
    All National Equestrian Governing Body competition records linked to that UELN and/or microchip number.
    FEI Passport number
    FEI Competition records.
    FEI Microchip number

    In lieu of actual copies of Competition records, valid internet links to official National Governing Bodies, FEI, and Breed registries and Association and USEF affiliate website database records can be substituted.

    Negligent or intentional failure to provide accurate information under this rule may lead to Federation discipline in matters instituted by the Federation or its members.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    How would this be for a proposed Rule?

    Every application for a new horse recording shall be accompanied by the following document: a notarized affidavit from the person seeking registration that he/she has diligently investigated the horse's competition record and background in the United States and foreign and international (FEI) jurisdictions, and that the results of that investigation are reflected in the following,, which shall be provided with the sworn affidavit.:

    Horse breed and registry
    Horse name as registered with registry
    Horse Breeder Name and Address
    Horse Age
    USEF Affilated Organization identification numbers
    USEF Affiliated Organization competition records linked to those Affiliated Organization Identification Numbers
    Identification numbers from other United States Equestrian organizations (such as breed registries and associations) not affiliated with the USEF
    Competition records (other than racing) associated with the Identification numbers from other United States equestrian organizations (such as breed registries and associations) not affiliated with the USEF.
    Horse UELN (Universal Equine Lifetime Number)
    Horse Microchip number and jurisdiction to which it is linked.
    Horse record ID numbers with all National Equestrian Governing bodies in whose competitions it has competed, and a copy of any associated Passport...
    All National Equestrian Governing Body competition records linked to that UELN and/or microchip number.
    FEI Passport number
    FEI Competition records.
    FEI Microchip number


    In lieu of actual copies of Competition records, valid internet links to official National Governing Bodies, FEI, and Breed registries and Association and USEF affiliate website database records can be substituted.
    I think it would be a lot easier to just microchip everything, give the horse one microchip number, and have someone stand at each in-gate or start box with a sweeper wand to verify that the horse being announced is the same horse standing in front of him.

    Microchipping needs to happen.
    Many, MANY issues would be eliminated this way, from eligibility questions to age questions to prior ownership questions, etc etc, right even down to "so, how old is it, what has it really done, who is actually the owner of this horse I am buying, and can I contact this alleged owner to verify sale price". Imagine if the customers could just have the vet sweep a wand and then go online at USEF and find out alllllll that info!

    Which is probably why they haven't made it mandatory yet.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  19. #619
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    I dunno. I agree that's needed, but I was trying to cover AQHA as well. Just using a microchip still means that someone will have to access the records linked to the microchip. This way the onus for procuring those records is on the person recording the horse AND they can't claim innocence when caught. With this, they also have to check USEA records as well as foreign ones.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  20. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    I dunno. I agree that's needed, but I was trying to cover AQHA as well. Just using a microchip still means that someone will have to access the records linked to the microchip. This way the onus for procuring those records is on the person recording the horse.
    But it doesn't have to be an "onus."
    If there is one microchip number, USEF while processing the registration (FOR WHICH THEY CHARGE), could actually lift a finger or two, type a number in, and have a look-see. Why make the person registering or re-registering both pay a fee AND do all the work? If we are going to take all of the required work away from USEF then what exactly are they charging $60 for?



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