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  1. #501
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    Flame suit on.

    I find the anger and histrionics in this thread out of proportion to the rule infraction.

    Yes, they should have paid more attention to the USEF rule and taken the extra day or two and provide he full history of the horse.

    As someone who has had to re- register horses without all papers at hand (and never received, so i would have been waiting forever....) losing a year or gaining a year easy to mistake. Was this a mistake? I don't know and you don't either. The horse appears to be showing in the appropriate division so no harm there.

    And the USEF is primarily a show registry not a breeding one. Breeding great to have, but not main purpose of USEF registration.

    Mistakes were made absolutely, and questions right to be asked. But the self righteousness of this thread is over the top. IMO.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  2. #502
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    Let's make one thing very clear: I went through the USEF rules this weekend and we are not just talking about one little subparagraph of one little General Rule that might easily slip past the eye.

    ANY time that ANYONE knowingly re-records a hunter horse with a new number, s/he has violated at least SEVEN USEF rules en bloc, and potentially as many as NINE, depending on what they choose to do with the horse in the future.

    If you didn't know that before, you do now!
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


    9 members found this post helpful.

  3. #503
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    This is interesting. According to the Chronicle, Emil Spadone imported a horse named Salto Mortale a couple of months ago. The Westfalian horse's breeding was kept--Sandro Boy x Loona, Lancer III--. and it just won the Old Salem II Hunter Derby and also showed first year Green. Chronicle story mentions that it had been showing in the jumpers in Europe until it came here.

    So anyone who had access and knew how could check to see the max heights of its competition and how long it had been showing at those heights. One assumes that Spadone did the checking before entering the horse in the first year Greens. If so, this is the precise kind of behavior that should be encouraged, since it's REQUIRED. Here is someone who was willing to put potential access to the horse's records out in public, when it would have been so easy to lose them..
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


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  4. #504
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    Buying from a program like Karen's, I'm sure this horse had a folder with everything, including her shoeing schedule, shot record, passport and all her registration numbers that was sent with her to her new home.

    Mistakes happen...but there is really no excuse. Seems like this is a bigger issue in the industry than this one horse...I find that surprising as it really isn't that complicated to follow the rules.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **


    11 members found this post helpful.

  5. #505
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    Hickstead dropped dead at a show at the end of his round. Does that make Jumpers horse abuse? Just pointing that inconvenient fact out.

    BFNE, this is such a professional organization that the folder was probably put on top of a file cabinet and misplaced by the secretary.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  6. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by iEquitate View Post
    Also, really did not know it was possible to take a bad picture of Inclusive. That horse gives photographers more than enough time to take a stunning shot over every jump...the main picture for that article does not really do him or Tori justice, to say the least.
    Yeah and the horse looks half asleep. Just sayin'.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  7. #507
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    Dec. 22, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockinHorse View Post
    Except they might have missed out on win or championship pictures, which for me is the best part!
    Ok, that is actually a legitimate gripe!

    However, I knew somebody years ago who ended up champion in her division at the National Horse Show at Madison Square Garden only after the original champion was disqualified months later for a drug test. Yes, she missed out on the pictures on the day, but she had the overall satisfaction of knowing she was the winner and her horse was the best one at that show forever.

    Yes, there are rules, and yes, they should be followed. When the rules are not followed, the rule breakers should be punished. No question.

    Those who think it's the absolute end of the world when a horse shows in the wrong division, then has the situation rectified, might want to watch the news once in a while.



  8. #508
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    VA
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    I don't really have a dog in this fight since I own a "gasp" OTTB that I am bringing along for my own pleasure and satisfaction. I hope to bring him to a few celebration shows someday when he's ready. But, having grown up doing the hunter A shows, I think it's very sad how low this part of the industry has gone. Yes, maybe this one particular incident might have been an oversight - cough, cough - but it speaks to the rampant problem that seems to be in the hunters today - cheating. Drugs, changing birthdates, doing the wrong division - it's all swept under the rug by an "well, I didn't know..." My ass.... and the bigger the name, the more people excuse it! I'm disgusted by the whole thing, especially when a USEF judge helps defend it. Hunters is turning into a joke - if it hasn't already...


    10 members found this post helpful.

  9. #509
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    "This is interesting. According to the Chronicle, Emil Spadone imported a horse named Salto Mortale a couple of months ago. The Westfalian horse's breeding was kept--Sandro Boy x Loona, Lancer III--. and it just won the Old Salem II Hunter Derby and also showed first year Green. Chronicle story mentions that it had been showing in the jumpers in Europe until it came here.

    So anyone who had access and knew how could check to see the max heights of its competition and how long it had been showing at those heights. One assumes that Spadone did the checking before entering the horse in the first year Greens. If so, this is the precise kind of behavior that should be encouraged, since it's REQUIRED. Here is someone who was willing to put potential access to the horse's records out in public, when it would have been so easy to lose them.."

    How would one check--I am assuming the horse has a name change-the only way to really check is if you had the horse's number it competed under in Europe.


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  10. #510
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    No name change. FEI record, and it's the same horse because of the breeding, is here:
    https://data.fei.org/Horse/Detail.as...AF80AF522CAFD4 He (stallion then) had one FEI jumper show in 2012 at 1.25 meters. In this case, the FEI record gives all the registration information, including his German FN number and his UELN.

    You can find the breeding by clicking on the Horse Details way up at the right.

    I get the impression that dag knows how to access European records even with a name change. You'd start with the known dam and sire and go from there. There is lot of show information available from internet searches.

    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    "This is interesting. According to the Chronicle, Emil Spadone imported a horse named Salto Mortale a couple of months ago. The Westfalian horse's breeding was kept--Sandro Boy x Loona, Lancer III--. and it just won the Old Salem II Hunter Derby and also showed first year Green. Chronicle story mentions that it had been showing in the jumpers in Europe until it came here.

    So anyone who had access and knew how could check to see the max heights of its competition and how long it had been showing at those heights. One assumes that Spadone did the checking before entering the horse in the first year Greens. If so, this is the precise kind of behavior that should be encouraged, since it's REQUIRED. Here is someone who was willing to put potential access to the horse's records out in public, when it would have been so easy to lose them.."

    How would one check--I am assuming the horse has a name change-the only way to really check is if you had the horse's number it competed under in Europe.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    "This is interesting. According to the Chronicle, Emil Spadone imported a horse named Salto Mortale a couple of months ago. The Westfalian horse's breeding was kept--Sandro Boy x Loona, Lancer III--. and it just won the Old Salem II Hunter Derby and also showed first year Green. Chronicle story mentions that it had been showing in the jumpers in Europe until it came here.

    So anyone who had access and knew how could check to see the max heights of its competition and how long it had been showing at those heights. One assumes that Spadone did the checking before entering the horse in the first year Greens. If so, this is the precise kind of behavior that should be encouraged, since it's REQUIRED. Here is someone who was willing to put potential access to the horse's records out in public, when it would have been so easy to lose them.."

    How would one check--I am assuming the horse has a name change-the only way to really check is if you had the horse's number it competed under in Europe.
    Well, the difference here is that Emil imports horses regularly—it's a huge part of his business, so obviously our office staff is well-versed in registering horses based off of their European passports, changing names vs. re-registering, etc., etc.

    As someone else stated, Kelley and Larry do not regularly import horses. There just isn't the volume going through that barn like there is Emil's. To be completely honest, I wasn't even 100 percent sure that event horses had recording numbers myself—I have a few friends who event and I can't find their horses on USEF's search. Is it only required at a certain level?



  12. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    To be completely honest, I wasn't even 100 percent sure that event horses had recording numbers myself—I have a few friends who event and I can't find their horses on USEF's search. Is it only required at a certain level?
    The horse showed at WEG in the jumpers before it was purchased. Are we really to believe that someone in the hunter industry doesn't know you need some type of USEF number to do THAT?
    ~Veronica
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    10 members found this post helpful.

  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    To be completely honest, I wasn't even 100 percent sure that event horses had recording numbers myself—I have a few friends who event and I can't find their horses on USEF's search. Is it only required at a certain level?
    Intermediate and Up. Recommended at Prelim....for Prelim the owner and Rider need USEF numbers but at Intermediate the horse needs to be registered. Most registered by Prelim as that is how you qualify for any year end awards etc.

    BUT..to compete in any FEI division...your horse needs a passport. And many eventers compete in FEI divisions at the 1* level which is about Prelim level. To obtain a passport, the horse needs to have a lifetime USEF registration number.


    To bop around the lower levels, you just need a USEA number.

    And FWIW--I've never bought a horse who didn't come with a package of all this information. Even the 2 year old came with his pedigree, USEF and USDF numbers (as he had shown in hand). I know not all sellers are that organized...but I have very little doubt that Karen's barn IS that organized. If I bought any horse with a competition record...wouldn't you think to ask for all their numbers etc??? I know if I bought a hunter...I'd ask...because I wouldn't be sure what registrations they are required to have. But I do know that most horse sports at a certain level require USEF registrations....including driving, endurance, reining and breed shows. I get those email blasts like many members...reporting on results in other disciplines. I wouldn't expect someone to KNOW that the horse has xy or z registrations but I would think that before registering them....they would ask.
    Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Jun. 10, 2013 at 11:46 AM.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **


    5 members found this post helpful.

  14. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    The horse showed at WEG in the jumpers before it was purchased. Are we really to believe that someone in the hunter industry doesn't know you need some type of USEF number to do THAT?
    I think you meant WEF...
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng



  15. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    Well, the difference here is that Emil imports horses regularly—it's a huge part of his business, so obviously our office staff is well-versed in registering horses based off of their European passports, changing names vs. re-registering, etc., etc.

    As someone else stated, Kelley and Larry do not regularly import horses. There just isn't the volume going through that barn like there is Emil's. To be completely honest, I wasn't even 100 percent sure that event horses had recording numbers myself—I have a few friends who event and I can't find their horses on USEF's search. Is it only required at a certain level?
    The article contradicts you somewhat:
    "Glefke runs a busy sales barn at his Wellington, Fla., Lane Change Farm and frequently imports horses from Europe to show and resell. This is the first time they have bought an eventer for the hunter ring."

    So if he's frequently importing horses for resale, he might want to get up to speed.
    "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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  16. #516
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    The horse didn't just come off the boat. KO had the horse. Just because you were not aware or did not understand the rules does not give you an exemption of respondsibility. I find the discussion to be encompassing hunters at large and not this instance alone. The fact that it can be cleared up later is a catch me if you can attitude. A pro should be a pro, know the rules, and step up to the game. Trying to dumb this down to a clerical error and putting people down only illustrates your complete lack of respect for the sport.

    Why should the USEF, staff, stewards, and COTH have to chase somebody down? Why are resources spent back tracking and reassigning points? To some this may seem easy, but overall tracking numbers is a huge expense that burdens the system. Entering false data complicates that. A pro should be helping the system and try to run things smoothly. If you are the pro for the horse you are respondsible for all aspects of that horse in your care. Take ownership, you took the prize.


    16 members found this post helpful.

  17. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by jr View Post
    Flame suit on.

    I find the anger and histrionics in this thread out of proportion to the rule infraction.
    Agreed.

    There is a problem, but my goodness, it's not like this horse was drugged.

    Also, if the common practice that has been accepted by the USEF is to not count European experience, well, it's hard to fault the parties involved with that. That is USEF's problem.

    It is like with speeding. 99% of drivers speed. Most of those people never get pulled over. Of the ones that do get pulled over, a number just get a slap on the wrist and are told not to do it again. Some get ticketed. Is our whole police system corrupt because not every single person speeding gets pulled over and all who do don't get ticketed? Are the drivers morally corrupt because they speed in the first place or are they just following accepted practice?

    Anyone that has broken a law (intentionally or not) and gotten away with it, ought to have a wee bit of understanding for the situation here.

    Regarding the excuses in the article: you will have to pick me up off the floor when the time comes that people stop making excuses. It's par for the course...and I would venture that the number of people that accept the blame without trying to deflect any of it is FAR, FAR smaller than those that point a finger. Even of the posters here. (If Kelly is the one who did the registration, as indicated in the article, well, it's just fine that the finger is pointed to her. It's her mistake.)
    Last edited by RugBug; Jun. 10, 2013 at 01:15 PM. Reason: fixed spelling
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"


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  18. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blugal View Post
    I think you meant WEF...
    Mybad! WEF!
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  19. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Discobold View Post
    An attitude beautifully illustrated by RugBug's post. But it's more than just apathy. It's contempt for anyone who suggests maybe those pesky little rules should be followed.

    Please. A call for "understanding" and actually being able to put this infraction in a proper context is NOT being apathetic or having contempt for anyone that thinks the rules should be followed.

    As an extreme rule-follower myself, it's funny to me that you think I'm the problem. I'm such a rule-follower, that I make sure I only work with people that have integrity because I cannot abide breaking the rules, nor can I abide following unjust rules.

    But I am also able to use my critical thinking skills and see that in the grand scheme of things, this situation is minor. Let me clearly state my stance on this whole thing:

    I DO NOT condone that the horse was re-registered.
    I DO NOT condone that the breeding information was not included.
    I DO NOT condone that the age was changed.
    I DO NOT condone that the horse was shown in classes which is was not eligible for.
    I DO believe all points/pizes for the ineligible divisions should be stripped and redistributed.
    I DO believe the USEF should enforce its own rules, across the board

    Where I am willing to cut some slack:

    Because I cannot determine someone's intent in this matter, I AM NOT willing to decide why something was done. Maybe the intent was to lie and cheat. Maybe it wasn't.
    I have a hard time faulting someone for following an accepted practice. I believe this is the USEF's issue, not the person doing it as it's always been done.
    I Do NOT think that changing from German Sporthorse to Warmblood is a problem.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"


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  20. #520
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    BTW, here is Salto Mortale's record at German competitions. It is apparently quite easy to find. A COTHer did.
    http://www.equira.de/pferde/view/salto_mortale_3

    M** level in Germany is 1.35 meters or 4'5". M* is 4'1*. L level is 3'9". Horse was doing M and L levels in 2010.

    From the GermanHorseCenter website:
    Show Jumping Classes
    Class Height / Spread Max water ditch spread
    E - Preliminary Test 0.85 m (2'9'') /
    A* - Novice Test 0.95 m (3'1'') /
    A** - Novice Test 1.05 m (3'1'') 2.50 m (8'2'')
    L - Elementary Test 1.15 m (3'9'') 3.00 m (9'9'')
    M* - Medium Test 1.25 m (4'1'') 3.50 m (11'5'')
    M** - Medium Test 1.35 m (4'5'') 4.00 m (13'1'')
    S* - Advanced Test 1.40 m (4'7'') 4.10 m (13'5'')
    S** - Advanced Test 1.45 m (4'9'') 4.30 m (14'1'')
    S*** - Advanced Test 1.50 m (4'11'') 4.50 m (14'8'')
    S**** - Advanced Test 1.55 m (5'1'') 4.50 m (14'8'')

    Deviations of up to +/- 5 cm (2'') in height and -10 (4'') /+20 cm (8'') in width are permitted (any width is permitted as of advanced class).

    So here is this 4'5" level jumper doing first year greens in the Hunters.
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