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  1. #1
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    May. 24, 2013
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    Default Joint Suppliments, "Yes" or "No"

    Wondering your thoughts............. Was told by a vet that oral joint care isnt worth the money I am having mixed thoughts on this topic as I personally take the human version and it works. What are your thoughts and experiences??? Which if any do you prefer and why?



  2. #2
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    Jan. 6, 2011
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    Florida
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    Default

    I only use injectables. Honestly never seen the same profound in joint supps as in injectables. I used Cosequin ASU ($150 for 80 days) for over a year on my guy and I started injectable glucosamine ($30 for 20 doses) which I give every week and Pentosan ($40 per dose) which I give on schedule which I think is every other or every three. My calendar is in the truck. Horse is in heavy work and has never felt better.

    My green bean also gets a dose of glucosamine weekly for less than I would pay for a cheap joint supplement. Does great on it as well and it is an easy upkeep plan. Will not go back to the feed through as they did not make enough of a change for the money.

    Honestly for me, price wise I don't mind injecting 1x a week and getting better results. Hope this helps.
    I am on my phone 90% of the time. Please ignore typos, misplaced lower case letters, and the random word butchered by autocowreck.



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  3. #3
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    Mar. 8, 2004
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    Baltimore, MD
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    Default

    I only use injectables as well. MSM and a good, liquid HA like Lubrisyn is the only thing I feel is remotely worthwhile to spend your money on. Lubrisyn is so temperature sensitive that I don't trust it anymore either though.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4

    Default

    I've used a number of the well marketed supplements, but the only one that seems to make a difference over a variety of issues on different horses is Recovery. For competition horses, I rely on injectables. But, for horses laid up or out of work, I supplement with Recovery. Not the product with HA, as I've seen no difference between Recovery (original) and the one with added HA, except price.

    Where I see the most significant difference is with the aged, arthritic horse. I have a 28 yr old, ex-hunter with severe arthritis in the fetlocks. Recovery allows her to be comfortable. Some of the other recognized supplements, just don't do it for this mare.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun. 23, 2009
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    PA
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    304

    Default No

    I'm generally on the "no" side as well. I do feed MSM. I think I see a difference, and it's less than $10 a month so if it isn't doing much, it's not a huge waste. I'm a pharmacist, and I tend to think most of the supplement market for humans is a huge waste of money. For humans, supplements are subject to the most minimal of regulations. Basically, as long as it's not killing people, no one is going to say anything, and there are rules as to how they can word their labels, but that's about it. No one really knows what the heck is in the product, no one knows how much is in there, and there's really limited safety and efficacy data for the ingredients in general. People think because it's "natural" and sold over the counter that it's safe.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct. 25, 2012
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    5,494

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dustyeventer View Post
    Wondering your thoughts............. Was told by a vet that oral joint care isnt worth the money I am having mixed thoughts on this topic as I personally take the human version and it works. What are your thoughts and experiences??? Which if any do you prefer and why?
    Your vet is correct, for the reason that an herbivore's digestive system is, as per what studies have been done, capable only of absorbing the stuff as very expensive sugar.

    People, cats, and dogs have a carnivore's digestive system which can do it with arguably more success, but even for people there may be a lot of placebo effect going on.

    Your money is better spent with Legend (or Pentosan) or Adequan--at least then you may be assured the product is delivered to the joint in need.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2012
    Posts
    282

    Default

    I've had people have wild success with oral joint supps, they do squat for my gelding. As mentioned, I think the only ones worth the $ are MSM and lubrisyn. I feed MSM because it's an overall anti-inflammatory and were toying around with lubrisyn.



  8. #8
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    Nov. 22, 2007
    Location
    Port Charlotte, FL
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    3,451

    Default

    Studies show that a lot of people feel better when they give their horse a supplement.


    18 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar. 16, 2006
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    Larkspur, Colo.
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Your vet is correct, for the reason that an herbivore's digestive system is, as per what studies have been done, capable only of absorbing the stuff as very expensive sugar.
    Which studies are you referring to and which nutraceuticals were used?

    One can debate whether specific oral supplements in various forms and dosages are useful or absorbed or worthwhile for the horse. But I don't buy the blanket statement that "herbivores don't absorb supplements." They absorb drugs and nutrients and poisons from the gut, so why would they not absorb any [fill-in-the-blank] oral joint supplement?

    I say this as a big fan of injectables and NSAIDs but also as one who uses and has seen improvements with Corta-Flx and Lubrisyn and some others in the past (high doses of glucosamine HCL).

    These articles may be of interest.

    http://blog.smartpakequine.com/2011/...t-supplements/

    http://www.equine.vetmed.lsu.edu/joi...upplements.pdf

    http://www.horse-journal.com/magazin...th-your-money/



  10. #10
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    Oct. 3, 2002
    Location
    Virginia
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    381

    Default

    MSM- I have had very good luck with this.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2012
    Posts
    282

    Default

    If herbivores didn't absorb any joint supplement, we wouldn't know peoPle who have had wild success with them. My last mare did *amazing* on BL pellets, did jack squat for my current gelding. Every horse is different, mine can't absorb most things because he has awful digestion that Ive been addressing for the past year and a half.



  12. #12
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    Oct. 25, 2012
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LarkspurCO View Post
    Which studies are you referring to and which nutraceuticals were used?

    One can debate whether specific oral supplements in various forms and dosages are useful or absorbed or worthwhile for the horse. But I don't buy the blanket statement that "herbivores don't absorb supplements." They absorb drugs and nutrients and poisons from the gut, so why would they not absorb any [fill-in-the-blank] oral joint supplement?

    I say this as a big fan of injectables and NSAIDs but also as one who uses and has seen improvements with Corta-Flx and Lubrisyn and some others in the past (high doses of glucosamine HCL).

    These articles may be of interest.

    http://blog.smartpakequine.com/2011/...t-supplements/

    http://www.equine.vetmed.lsu.edu/joi...upplements.pdf

    http://www.horse-journal.com/magazin...th-your-money/
    The studies were over 10 years ago, and were in general agreement. Specifically, glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate were said not to be absorbed by a horse's gut in a form where they could impact the joints. I recall the one study that had some claim of success was done by Cosequin, but in the carpal (knee) joints only in 3-year-old racehorses. A marginal difference on radiographs was said to have been seen.

    A lot more bang for your buck with injectables is my vote. Better yet, condition your horse carefully with a good warm-up and cool-down every ride, design him a work program tailored to his age, type, job, and conformation, and make sure he gets plenty of turnout and natural food. Give him winters off from showing and I'll bet you won't even need the stuff. Yes, I'm old-fashioned and I realize not everyone's in a position to do this. My main point is that nothing that comes in a tin or pail or bottle is a substitute for sound management & training practices.


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  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2006
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    NY
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    5,192

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LarkspurCO View Post
    I say this as a big fan of injectables and NSAIDs but also as one who uses and has seen improvements with Corta-Flx and Lubrisyn and some others in the past (high doses of glucosamine HCL).
    My vet said that some oral supplements have been proven to show some results (Corta-Flx is one I remember). His opinion is that they do more to promote healthy joints, and might increase the healthy lifespan of joints and give you some time before you need to move to injectibles, and then to joint injections.

    He feels that some of them are worth using, depending on the brand and the need/use. My TB mare has some arthritis, and is retired. She is on an oral joint supplement now, and it does seem to help from what I can observe. But she is fairly young (18) and in zero work (24/7 turnout) so I am hoping to avoid needing to up the ante and go to injectibles.

    Obviously this is not a reasonable plan of action for horses in work, and/or in more discomfort, but for us it is working for now. I have her on the SmartFlex Senior; not sure how effective it is compared to other oral supplements, but seems to work for her.



  14. #14
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    Jul. 10, 2003
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    It's not really mid nor west
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    Default

    I use plain glucosamine sulfate and MSM. I see improvement from both (decrease in joint effusion and improved soundness in some). Before Corta-Flx changed their formulation a couple years ago I had good results from it as well. Now it doesn't do anything (I didn't realize the formula had changed until my gelding's fetlock swelling came back and I started investigating.) I have had good luck with oral HA in the past. I've never had good results from the expensive "combo" supplements.
    I feel like they are worth trying, but I don't keep horses on something just to make myself feel better if I don't see any result. I don't have the $ for that!
    As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    May. 4, 2003
    Location
    Canada
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    15,129

    Default

    Over the years I've tried so many 'white powders' with varying names and for various ailments. Personally, I never noticed any remarkable difference in any of them, to the extent I now think they are marketed at the owners...for lots of money.

    When the individual ingredients are broken down, they are very, very cheap to buy, but put in a bucket, with a label and marketing, they shoot up into the $100.00 price. I've bought the individual ingredients from the farm supply store and not hurt my pocketbook.

    I've taken the label off my forehead and changed it to skeptic.
    Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique



  16. #16
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    Jan. 16, 2002
    Location
    West Coast of Michigan
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    Default

    I agree with your vet. But the products are generally considered harmless, and there's an economy out there that needs your support!

    BTW, BL is not in the same family as glucosamine, etc. but is in fact primarily devil's claw, a weak NSAID. Not all nutraceuticals are the same!

    And "joint disease" is a disorder that encompasses a large variety of specific ailments, none of which behave predictably under the influence of any one specific treatment.
    Click here before you buy.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May. 24, 2013
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    North Los Angeles
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    50

    Default

    Hahaha thats funny

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
    Studies show that a lot of people feel better when they give their horse a supplement.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar. 16, 2006
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    Larkspur, Colo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    A lot more bang for your buck with injectables is my vote. Better yet, condition your horse carefully with a good warm-up and cool-down every ride, design him a work program tailored to his age, type, job, and conformation, and make sure he gets plenty of turnout and natural food. Give him winters off from showing and I'll bet you won't even need the stuff. Yes, I'm old-fashioned and I realize not everyone's in a position to do this. My main point is that nothing that comes in a tin or pail or bottle is a substitute for sound management & training practices.
    You forgot good shoeing, good footing and ice.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr. 3, 2011
    Posts
    620

    Default

    Just a question, I don't want to detract attention from the OP but I'd like to know:

    Say a horse is on a good management plan, but needs a little "extra" due to demands from earlier on in life (racing, harder jump work, etc.).

    Say the owner is willing to look into injectables. Could a (fairly well-informed) owner do this? Are we talking IM injections every few weeks, or are we talking about injecting joints every few weeks (something done by trained veterinarians only)? Can an owner buy the injections on their own, or are they only available through veterinarians?

    Just curious. This debate comes up now and again and I am unclear on terminology and practices. Thanks!



  20. #20
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    Jan. 16, 2002
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    West Coast of Michigan
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    Adequan and Pentosan are both given IM. Well within the abilities of most horse owners if they are willing to learn and take reasonable precautions with handling the drugs and doing the injections properly.
    Click here before you buy.



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