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  1. #1

    Default Sometimes it really is just training, in fact, mostly it iis training

    It is a aspect of the concern for animals, and a good one, that is demonstrated when a question is asked on the bulletin board and the poster is expected to provide:
    a mineral list
    a nutrtionist report
    a vet certificate
    a saddle fittes proof
    a chiropractor massage therapist and horse communicator

    to prove that they have properly taken care of their horse before anyone actually offers training and behaviour modifciation advice.

    If a horse kicks at me, i modify her behaviour first, because i do not care if a T rex drops out of the sky and attacks the horse may not kick me... then i look to sources of the behavior.

    Sometimes, its just training, in act most of the time, it is just training.


    28 members found this post helpful.

  2. #2
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    Default

    I guess this is directed at me (although I did not ask for all of the things above).
    In my experience, when mares are cranky and touchy about leg, they are often sore or have hormonal issues. Sometimes ulcers or sore ribs can manifest the same way.
    I think we owe it to the horse to make sure they are not in pain before we demand a certain behaviour. I do not tolerate dangerous behaviour toward me for any reason, but I certainly won't keep pushing an issue if I am not sure there isn't a physical basis.
    I am particularly cranky about this issue after watching a QH mare at my barn be beaten for lashing at her owner when being saddled and when leg was put on. Eventually the mare would be afraid to lash out and would stand and nod her head and pin her ears and grind her teeth and lash her tail. Owner took her to a clinic where the clinician recommended she have a vet look at the horse, who immediately found a large, painful, cystic ovary.
    Sometimes it is just training, but since they can't talk, be owe it to them to make sure that they are physically comfortable. After all, we ask them to work. They would just wander around and graze all day as nature intended if we left them alone.
    *CrowneDragon*
    As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.


    18 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
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    Oct. 30, 2009
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    There can be a difference between training problems and vices. Both are usually caused by a lack of communication or observation from the rider/trainer. Many times what starts out as an ignored discomfort or frustration for the horse becomes a training problem.
    "I've spent most of my life riding horses. The rest I've just wasted". - Anonymous


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2005
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    Default

    Training shouldn't involve a whip and a chair.

    Being a trainer involves more than an ability to sit on a horse and survive. Training should involve the ability to see a horse, to read that horse's body language. This takes time, and many horses for some. Others get it.
    Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov. 14, 2011
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    Default

    While rough around the edges, I appreciate this post

    "Pat the horse; kick yourself" - Carl Hester


    5 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan. 30, 2010
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    Default

    There are different types of trainers:

    Some that believe in the honest and try of the horse, and when that goes missing, look to themselves for the solution (riding, health, care, soundness).

    Some that believe in the domination and submission of the horse despite lack of riding skill, health, care and soundness.

    The latter is the easier, but the former the more fulfilling.
    Freeing worms from cans everywhere!


    18 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
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    Nov. 14, 2011
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CHT View Post
    There are different types of trainers:

    Some that believe in the honest and try of the horse, and when that goes missing, look to themselves for the solution (riding, health, care, soundness).

    Some that believe in the domination and submission of the horse despite lack of riding skill, health, care and soundness.

    The latter is the easier, but the former the more fulfilling.
    Then there are those of us who started out with the former outlook but over the years have learned that most of the time you do have to be assertive through the "bad". While I will always try to rule out anything physical first, often times the benefit of the doubt only wastes time and draws out the problem over a longer period. Sometimes, training just ain't no fun.


    Edited to add: I love your tag line!!!

    "Pat the horse; kick yourself" - Carl Hester


    6 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul. 14, 2007
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CrowneDragon View Post
    I guess this is directed at me (although I did not ask for all of the things above).
    In my experience, when mares are cranky and touchy about leg, they are often sore or have hormonal issues. Sometimes ulcers or sore ribs can manifest the same way.
    I think we owe it to the horse to make sure they are not in pain before we demand a certain behaviour. I do not tolerate dangerous behaviour toward me for any reason, but I certainly won't keep pushing an issue if I am not sure there isn't a physical basis.
    I am particularly cranky about this issue after watching a QH mare at my barn be beaten for lashing at her owner when being saddled and when leg was put on. Eventually the mare would be afraid to lash out and would stand and nod her head and pin her ears and grind her teeth and lash her tail. Owner took her to a clinic where the clinician recommended she have a vet look at the horse, who immediately found a large, painful, cystic ovary.
    Sometimes it is just training, but since they can't talk, be owe it to them to make sure that they are physically comfortable. After all, we ask them to work. They would just wander around and graze all day as nature intended if we left them alone.
    NO, not directed at anyone in particular, the result of reading many threads, where the OP has to respond to every single possibility


    4 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
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    Jul. 14, 2007
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    Default

    You see the interesting thing about this is that immediately, because i am not pandering to the Peta like expectations, it is assumed that i am a harsh trainer, which i am not. If a horse comes into my space, i back them out of my space. I take my time training horses, I use the clicker, when appropriate, and have had the pleasurable opportinity to see many horses go from frantic mistrusting animals around people, to horses to love and trust, hey, even horses who enjoy work.


    train your horses people, modify their behavior, It means you have to modify yours, and learn something, do it. But to assume that you can continue to behave in exactly the same way, and the horse will improve if you get the vet/ chiro/ nutritionist/ dentist is ridiculous.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  10. #10
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    Oct. 2, 2012
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    Default

    This thread reminds me of that public radio show Car Talk, when the guys ask "What color is your car?" because they have no clue what's wrong with it.
    A helmet saved my life.

    2014 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!


    11 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by chisamba View Post
    You see the interesting thing about this is that immediately, because i am not pandering to the Peta like expectations, it is assumed that i am a harsh trainer, which i am not. If a horse comes into my space, i back them out of my space. I take my time training horses, I use the clicker, when appropriate, and have had the pleasurable opportinity to see many horses go from frantic mistrusting animals around people, to horses to love and trust, hey, even horses who enjoy work.


    train your horses people, modify their behavior, It means you have to modify yours, and learn something, do it. But to assume that you can continue to behave in exactly the same way, and the horse will improve if you get the vet/ chiro/ nutritionist/ dentist is ridiculous.
    It sounds to me like you are speaking to specific threads. I don't know what they are. Maybe if you're clearer, I'd know where you are coming from better. In my experience, many horse training issues do have a root in physical issues. Sometimes, the owner can afford to pinpoint the issue, many cannot. Sure, many times the problem is training. And many times, the horse has a physical issue. What is wrong with ruling out physical issues?
    Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation


    4 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
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    Mar. 24, 2012
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    Default

    Many of us have seen both sides of this issue so it doesn't really help to make definitive generalized statements one way or the other .


    5 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13
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    Sep. 15, 2011
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelico View Post
    Then there are those of us who started out with the former outlook but over the years have learned that most of the time you do have to be assertive through the "bad".
    Interesting, as I thought that it would be just the opposite for most.

    We start out all energetic and hungry for power and find horses perfect for that, but then as we mature the wind goes out of our sails when we begin to realize that anyone can dominate a horse, because horses don't want to be dominant.

    So all that time we thought we were really something because we could push our horses around, we hadn't really accomplished much of anything because anyone can push a horse around. :-)


    3 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
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    Aug. 5, 2012
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    Default

    You always look for a physical reason why the horse is acting out, but I do agree that a horse shouldn't be able to continue to act out dangerously in the meanwhile. And if you suspect the horse is hurting, then you probably shouldn't work it.
    I always expect manners when in hand, no sense getting barn staff, your vet, farrier or yourself hurt when trying to treat something. Horses don't want to be dominant, but it takes some longer than others to figure that out (like my mare).


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #15
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    Default

    I think the sad thing is that when someone posts on the internet about a resistance problem, the go-to assumption is that they might not have eliminated a physical problem. That should be as basic an element of horsemanship as "first check that the horse has four legs"... it shouldn't have to always be stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by CHT View Post
    There are different types of trainers:

    Some that believe in the honest and try of the horse, and when that goes missing, look to themselves for the solution (riding, health, care, soundness).

    Some that believe in the domination and submission of the horse despite lack of riding skill, health, care and soundness.

    The latter is the easier, but the former the more fulfilling.
    I reject this dichotomy. The first "type" implies that horses are never naturally naughty, lazy, or disobedient. The second suggests that prioritising and developing a horse's submission (one of the collective marks in dressage) goes hand in hand with ignorance or lack of skill.

    Sometimes horses are naughty. I think all the advances we've made in health care and technology in the last decade are amazing... but that doesn't mean that a perfectly sound, fit and happy horse can't present ongoing resistance under saddle - and too many riders, IMO, lack the horsemanship to know the difference, and know how to effectively deal with true temperament-driven resistance.

    I see what Chisamba is driving at, and I mostly agree. Sometimes responses about specific and associated ailments are helpful, such as the ones about ovarian issues in mares... and of course we should all be helping our animals in every way possible, including regular physical exams and treatments. However, I've seen too many amateurs end up with spoiled, unfit, under-schooled horses who have little resale value because they constantly back off ANY work for every small soreness or complaint identified by the therapist-du-jour - that IS a welfare issue, because it plummets a horse's potential sale price. (Controversial perhaps, but in Europe right now things are getting scary and I've begun to realise that one aspect of welfare is the potential future usefulness of the horses we own, even when we don't imagine the need to ever part with them).
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  16. #16
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    Oct. 30, 2009
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    Sometimes, its just training, in act most of the time, it is just training.

    Shouldn't that be lack of training?
    "I've spent most of my life riding horses. The rest I've just wasted". - Anonymous



  17. #17
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    Jul. 14, 2007
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CFFarm View Post
    Sometimes, its just training, in act most of the time, it is just training.

    Shouldn't that be lack of training?
    lol!

    My point is clumsily made, a friend of mine commented directly to me and said, what you should have said was,

    if you cannot modify your training to be effective, no amount of profesional advice will help, but the horse should always get the professional help they need.

    Is that better, lol! communication is not always my best skill.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #18
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    Jun. 1, 2002
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    Indiana
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    Default

    I have found that unless the OP provides photo copied proof of their vet report nobody will give them any training advice. When they do it is suggested that they get a different vet!

    I always specifiy my advice with "assuming horse is sound...." since so often the OP never gets any training advice at all.

    In fact, I have noticed that some posters tend to have the exact same medical problem suggestion on every thread.

    "I'm having trouble getting my horse to halt square, can anyone help?"

    - have you tried cutting soy out of his diet?

    "my horse flips his head in his upward transitions, how can I keep the connection?"

    - have you tried cutting soy out of his diet?

    "My horse pins his ears and doesn't go forward."

    - have you tried cutting soy out of his diet?


    28 members found this post helpful.

  19. #19
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    Jul. 3, 2012
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    Well, in my case, none of my horses EVER acted up or out because of lack of training. They always had good reasons that were always physical, sometimes as a result of bad training or training that didn't suit them.

    But to suggest that a horse that acts up just needs more training is doing a disservice to the animals we hold in our trust.

    Case in point...horse didn't want farrier to lift front foot and twist the leg to get it between his knees; snapped it back several times. Training? Pain? Vet was called. No pain in the joints. His advice? Chewing relaxes. Give him a treat as the farrier reaches and manipulates the foot/leg. Will be doing that on June 11, with carrots; the kind with the greens still on.
    Ride like you mean it.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #20
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    Jul. 3, 2012
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    Oh my...this assumes way too much.

    Quote:

    train your horses people, modify their behavior, It means you have to modify yours, and learn something, do it. But to assume that you can continue to behave in exactly the same way, and the horse will improve if you get the vet/ chiro/ nutritionist/ dentist is ridiculous.
    Ride like you mean it.


    2 members found this post helpful.

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