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  1. #341
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    Oct. 26, 2003
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    Lizzie, can you explain to COTH members why you delete any comment that attempts to correct your misinformation or outright lies? You then ban that poster for good. Our inquiring COTH minds want to know.


    12 members found this post helpful.

  2. #342
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    Jun. 7, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElizabethNYC View Post
    Where HAVE all those pesky NYC carriage horses gone? a turnover of a minimum of 71 horses a year. These are the facts! No extrapolating or making up stories here. All black and white.

    http://www.onegreenplanet.org/news/w...age-horses-go/

    Documentation at bottom of this page http://banhdc.org/whatwillhap.shtml
    It's irrelevant where they went. There is nothing sinister about buying and selling horses. Most people here have bought, sold, given away, and taken in giveaways. Every horse deserves people who do the best they can by them. Pulling a carriage in NYC doesn't put a horse in some protected class different from any other horse.
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns



    8 members found this post helpful.

  3. #343
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    Feb. 6, 2013
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    18

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElizabethNYC View Post
    Where HAVE all those pesky NYC carriage horses gone? a turnover of a minimum of 71 horses a year. These are the facts! No extrapolating or making up stories here. All black and white.
    Pay NO ATTENTION to the idiot behind the curtain!!!!

    Oh, wait, I thought we were in the Wizard of Oz's field of stupefying flowers for a moment there. Guess not.

    Lizzie, you're so boring. You say that about everything you post against the carriage horses, yet it's ALL utterly devoid of fact, made-up, extrapolated mythology. Worse -- it's not even GOOD mythology. You're a pitiful old bat, darlin'. Ain't it past time to retire? Seriously, put us all out of your misery. Please.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  4. #344
    Join Date
    Jul. 15, 2003
    Location
    Tampa, FL
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    Elizabeth Forel speaks with a forked tongue like the rotten, dirty snake she is. She refuses to see facts and instead twists numbers, data and general information to suit her purposes and then when someone tries to correct her on her FB page, she bans them and calls them Trolls.

    Here is one of her "forked tongue" instances....This weekend she posts on her FB page regarding a protest they held. Her words directly:
    WHY THE INDUSTRY WANTS YOU TO BELIEVE THEY ARE THE VICTIMS
    The carriage owners have surely studied the reports I mention above. But knowing the cars are not a threat to their business does not sit well with the image they want to portray, which is that of the victim. Their fantasy, which they try hard to promote to anyone who will listen is about the big bad, greedy and wealthy real estate mogul who is out to grab the land on which the stables sit and to take their property - their horses and stables. It is class warfare. They want to be seen as poor working class immigrants. We have seen this countless times written over and over again by them and their small band of supporters - and through their TV interviews. It is another sham.

    If one could see these NYC stables, this "land grab" would not make sense because there is nothing special about their property. They are located on the far west side of Manhattan between 10th and 12th Avenue - not a desirable neighborhood. Two of the stables are only 25' wide; one is 75' wide. There are no records for the fourth. The foot prints are small. Somehow, I doubt that the head of NY Class is so desperate for property in this huge city that he is only interested in these stable properties.
    but if one goes back to an comment she made on a Patch article in 2011, she makes this comment:
    "The hand writing is on the wall. When this industry goes down, it may well be because of the Hudson Yards/Hells Kitchen real estate development project that will wipe out two stables. And then move uptown to take the others. Manhattan real estate is very valuable and many developers have their eyes on the redevelopment of the far west side. You can rant at NY Class and the ASPCA all you want – but you can’t stop this kind of progress."
    December 17,2011 http://tinyurl.com/9jlwqty

    Regarding the "small sizes" of these lots, Clinton Park Stables has a footprint of 200x150 feet. Steve Nislik of Manhattan Mini Storage could put a lot of storage units on this and also on the smaller stable lots too, they may be small footprints but Manhattan and NYC does have more than a few multi story buildings last I heard.


    As for the numbers of horses "disappearing" if someone brings a carriage horse into the city for even just ONE DAY as a trial, the horse has to be registered. Horse doesn't work out, it goes back to the trainer or whoever was selling the horse.

    If Eva and her husband buy a horse from another carriage operator in NYC, that horse is issued a new registration and the old registration is dropped.

    If a horse is retired, the registration is dropped. If a horse is sold to an out of state carriage company the registration is dropped, if a horse is sold to a therapeutic riding academy the registration is dropped, if a horse is sold to a private owner as a personal driving horse the registration is dropped.....get the picture.

    As for Forel claiming that all of these horses end up sold at New Holland and other low end auctions to the kill buyers....wouldn't you think that AC4H, Camelot, Sundew and all of the other rescues that go to those sales would have snatched them up as highly adoptable? Where are they? They do not make it to the rescue pages?????
    Last edited by Amwrider; Jun. 6, 2013 at 09:27 AM.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


    7 members found this post helpful.

  5. #345
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2003
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    NorthEast
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    24,536

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    Ms Forel, this thread has one carriage driver on it. The rest of the people (and the vast majority of this very large BB) are just very experienced horse owners and professionals in the equine industry. Quite a few work tirelessly in rescue work. Another large percentage have personally taken in at risk animals. The collective experience on this BB is extreme. (there are even some animal rights supporters) Despite horse people rarely agreeing on the same things...they do agree on one thing. That what you write and say about horses is incorrect and is so blatantly wrong and twisted that it's obvious that you not only know the information is wrong but that you fanatically promote these fantasy wrong-doings in order to garner the most attention possible. If there are actual problems then those should stand on their own merits. If there aren't actual problems the you'd have to stick to obvious lies and exaggerations. We can all see which is accurate. You coming on here to try to garner attention or support is like a child playing doctor trying to have a surgical discussion with an actual neurosurgeon.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


    13 members found this post helpful.

  6. #346
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2012
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    157

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    PETA should be classified as a terrorist organization


    8 members found this post helpful.

  7. #347
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
    Location
    Lorena, Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    Ms Forel, this thread has one carriage driver on it. The rest of the people (and the vast majority of this very large BB) are just very experienced horse owners and professionals in the equine industry. Quite a few work tirelessly in rescue work. Another large percentage have personally taken in at risk animals. The collective experience on this BB is extreme. (there are even some animal rights supporters) Despite horse people rarely agreeing on the same things...they do agree on one thing. That what you write and say about horses is incorrect and is so blatantly wrong and twisted that it's obvious that you not only know the information is wrong but that you fanatically promote these fantasy wrong-doings in order to garner the most attention possible. If there are actual problems then those should stand on their own merits. If there aren't actual problems the you'd have to stick to obvious lies and exaggerations. We can all see which is accurate. You coming on here to try to garner attention or support is like a child playing doctor trying to have a surgical discussion with an actual neurosurgeon.
    And some here work in rescue, have doctorate degrees in Animal Science, AND do research on equine welfare. But I'm sure that's not enough credentials, either, for some people. (And when I make it to NY, I am going to see about visiting the carriage stables and owners and making my own opinions. And maybe writing up some articles on their industry... and then I'll become an enemy of the anti-carriage types, too!).
    Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

    Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com


    8 members found this post helpful.

  8. #348
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    41,558

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    Quote Originally Posted by daisycutter87 View Post
    PETA should be classified as a terrorist organization
    It was, until it became not PC to do so, no matter how much proof there may be of that.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  9. #349
    Join Date
    Sep. 21, 2009
    Location
    Queens, NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowgirljenn View Post
    And some here work in rescue, have doctorate degrees in Animal Science, AND do research on equine welfare. But I'm sure that's not enough credentials, either, for some people. (And when I make it to NY, I am going to see about visiting the carriage stables and owners and making my own opinions. And maybe writing up some articles on their industry... and then I'll become an enemy of the anti-carriage types, too!).
    Cowgirl, you are welcome anytime - everyone is welcome. Our SOP is that any horseperson, journalist, politician, etc who has concerns or questions about us just give us enough notice to get someone to meet you at our stables (2-3 hours usually covers it) to let you in and give you a tour. For the general public, we have an annual open-house in March, ClipClopNYC.

    Of course, all of our horses are on display for anyone to see whenever they want, without any advance notice, on the biggest stage in the world: the streets of NYC
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts


    5 members found this post helpful.

  10. #350
    Join Date
    Mar. 19, 2010
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    416

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amwrider View Post
    As for Forel claiming that all of these horses end up sold at New Holland and other low end auctions to the kill buyers....wouldn't you think that AC4H, Camelot, Sundew and all of the other rescues that go to those sales would have snatched them up as highly adoptable? Where are they? They do not make it to the rescue pages?????
    And, as Ms. Forel well knows, the NYC carriage horses have a number hot-branded on a front hoof - which could not be filed off in a way that would not be really noticeable and would take about a year to grow out.

    So in what way would it make any sense for someone to hold on to a carriage horse for a year before sending them to auction?... paying how much in board, feed, vet, farrier, etc?... just so the horse wouldn't be recognized at the auction as a NYC carriage horse?

    And if the horses are going to auction, as Amwrider asks, why aren't we seeing pictures of them? I guess they don their "Cloak of Invisibility"
    Most people don't need a $35,000 horse. They need a $1,000 horse and $34,000 in lessons.

    "I don't have to be fair… . I'm an American With a Strong, Fact-Free Opinion." (stolen off Facebook)


    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #351
    Join Date
    Sep. 21, 2009
    Location
    Queens, NY
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    1,546

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBarnRules View Post
    And, as Ms. Forel well knows, the NYC carriage horses have a number hot-branded on a front hoof - which could not be filed off in a way that would not be really noticeable and would take about a year to grow out.

    So in what way would it make any sense for someone to hold on to a carriage horse for a year before sending them to auction?... paying how much in board, feed, vet, farrier, etc?... just so the horse wouldn't be recognized at the auction as a NYC carriage horse?

    And if the horses are going to auction, as Amwrider asks, why aren't we seeing pictures of them? I guess they don their "Cloak of Invisibility"
    Barnrules -- if the rescue folks were canny, they would hot-brand a 4 digit number into EVERY at-risk horse's hoof, as those are the ONLY horses Forel and her ilk are interested in saving!
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts


    4 members found this post helpful.

  12. #352
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2013
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    18

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    Quote Originally Posted by michaleenflynn View Post
    Barnrules -- if the rescue folks were canny, they would hot-brand a 4 digit number into EVERY at-risk horse's hoof, as those are the ONLY horses Forel and her ilk are interested in saving!
    OMG, that's BRILLIANT!! Then Lizzie and Camille and Mary and all their attention-whoring buddies would be tripping over each other to help horses that need help. Someone call the media!

    Heck, it's even possible that some Nislick/NYCLASSholes' celebrity, corporate, and country club dollars would finally help a horse or two. Stranger things have happened!


    4 members found this post helpful.

  13. #353
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    41,558

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    Wow, what language is heard here!

    I think I get it, this one poster is not the nicest person around, but, well, is all that name calling really necessary?

    I know, I know, mind my own business.

    Just saying, since generally I am the one on the receiving end.



  14. #354
    Join Date
    Jun. 19, 2011
    Posts
    3,023

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    Amazing. She creates Fear and turns them into Facts based on false projections.

    A horse with leg chestnuts should be put down as that is visable cancer.

    To young followers who have no grasp of conformation, what the heck.

    That is now a NEW TRUTH.

    We hear many examples...mention a word and someone will define it incorrectly. WHEN they are corrected they immediately reply..Well, That is only YOUR OPINION as to what the words means.

    We have allowed this to occur and now we are shocked when Forel and her minions USE that against the livestock industry of which the Carriage Horse Association is a member of.

    If we fail to assist and protect them we are letting the seizures begin.

    First they came for the Gypsy's, then the Gays, Then the Catholics and nowthey are coming after me, but there is no one left to protect me

    Forel is for BANNING an industry because she thinks it is inhumane, evil, a waste of horses and personally , she doesn't like it.

    WE must stand against her and ALL those who attempt to use those thoughts and tactics against a livestock industry.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  15. #355
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    Oct. 14, 2010
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    The fact that 71 horses were old or given away by a number of different people in the course of a year doesn't bother me in the least.

    Someone trying to prevent people from selling those horses concern me.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  16. #356
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    Mar. 19, 2010
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    416

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    Quote Originally Posted by red mares View Post
    The fact that 71 horses were old or given away by a number of different people in the course of a year doesn't bother me in the least.

    Someone trying to prevent people from selling those horses concern me.
    Not just prevent them from selling their horses but DICTATING to whom and under what conditions those horses can be sold - or rather GIVEN away.

    Speaking of which - Ms. Forel, since you seem to be demanding so many answers, please answer these questions: who are these so-called "rescues" you claim to have lined up to take these horses? Where are they located? What are their facilities like? Do they have any experience with draft horses? Who are their vets, farriers, etc? Do they have any experience with draft horses? How, exactly, will all of this be paid for?
    Most people don't need a $35,000 horse. They need a $1,000 horse and $34,000 in lessons.

    "I don't have to be fair… . I'm an American With a Strong, Fact-Free Opinion." (stolen off Facebook)


    3 members found this post helpful.

  17. #357
    Join Date
    Oct. 26, 2003
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    1,898

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    Please note: The rescue that Lizzie supports -- you know, the one that ignored all of our phone calls and emails about having her speak at what was supposed to be an anti-slaughter summit -- lost approximately $325,000 in FY 2011, according to its IRS filing. It has lots of superrich donors and less than half of the 220 NYC carriage horses Lizzie wants to get her hands on. So, yes, please let us know where the money is coming from to "rescue" these horses.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #358
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2010
    Posts
    27

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    As a carriage driver in Texas, it really pisses me off that the people that are trying to ban the carriages in NYC know nothing about horses. All this "so-called" data is bogus. If you knew the industry or even horses, you would know that not every horse is suited for this job. It takes a very special horse and sometimes you go through 10 to 20 horses to find that "right" horse.

    OK, for all you horse people, I found this hilarious. They actually posted that they wanted to wear straw hats and give them to the horses to eat. And to take bottles of water and Frisbees for them to drink out of. They have no clue that horses to not lap water like a dog, that they actually drink gallons at a time...not ounces. I don't know about ya'll, but my horse would probably grab that Frisbee and toss it in the air.

    Yes, I know there should not be name calling, but these people that want to ban the horse drawn carriages are nothing but idiots in my book.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  19. #359
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
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    Lorena, Texas
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    4,114

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    Quote Originally Posted by michaleenflynn View Post
    Cowgirl, you are welcome anytime - everyone is welcome. Our SOP is that any horseperson, journalist, politician, etc who has concerns or questions about us just give us enough notice to get someone to meet you at our stables (2-3 hours usually covers it) to let you in and give you a tour. For the general public, we have an annual open-house in March, ClipClopNYC.

    Of course, all of our horses are on display for anyone to see whenever they want, without any advance notice, on the biggest stage in the world: the streets of NYC
    I figured when I can make a trip out there, I would contact you and set something up. Now I have to figure out how to make it happen!
    Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

    Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com


    2 members found this post helpful.

  20. #360
    Join Date
    Sep. 13, 2000
    Location
    Greenville, MI,
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    11,886

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    Wait? I thought this thread was about Peta wanting Eventing banned?
    Now it is about Carriage horses??
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



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