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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coanteen View Post
    I agree that those who follow Wheat Belly tend to underestimate evolutionary adaptation - heck, one of the Darwin finch species (medium ground finch) evolved a smaller beak within an observable span of 20 yrs in response to competition from a new arrival. Evolutionary change doesn't need to take millions of years; speciation sure, but not adaptation within a species.

    However, I agree that there is no need to eat grain. It is an abundant source of energy, but it is no more necessary to the human diet than cow's milk.

    And sticking gluten meal in everything is sort of scary. Ever noticed how many pet foods have that added?
    Why eat something that makes you fat and sick? That's what it all comes down to for me.


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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Why eat something that makes you fat and sick? That's what it all comes down to for me.
    Since it makes me neither fat nor sick, why shouldn't I eat it?

    And if gluten/grain was gone, we'd find other crap to overeat on. Taking away grain still won't change the laws of thermodynamics.


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  3. #23
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    Here's a brief version of what I've learnt.....

    Read this about pamphlet about the metabolic pathways involved using Acetylcysteine for detoxing cases of acetaminophen overdose as an example of one kind of toxicity:

    http://uuhsc.utah.edu/poison/healthp...x/Vol7_No1.pdf

    In environmental medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_medicine) one of the keystones of it's philosophy is that all people are different, and some have more efficient detoxification pathways then do others. This can be due to genetic differences, nutritional deficiencies, food allergies and sensitivities that inflame the gastrointestinal tract and cause nutrient absorption issues, various disease states, parasites, etc...

    Next, consider the concept that each individual person will have a different level of exposures to environmental toxins depending on where they live, where they work, the levels of pollutants that are in the air they breathe, the pesticides on the food they eat, the amounts and kinds of chemicals that they come into contact with from their given environments.

    The philosophy then suggests, that when an individual with a less efficient, or an overwhelmed detox pathway (read that acetaminophen overdose pamphlet) comes into contact with more toxins from their environment then their detox pathways can handle. The body then begins to handle those toxin differently in an effort to remove them from an active state in the body, and one of the bodies methods, is to store toxins in fat cells (the brain is 60% fat).

    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41118846/n.../#.UaLlNI6UBp8

    When stored toxins reach certain levels in the body, environmental medicine believes that the presence of these toxins in the body can cause or aggravate, a multitude of different disease states, including mental illness.

    Thus one of the ideologies in environmental medicine, is to investigate a patients nutritional levels and potential for toxic environmental exposure. Then supplement the nutritional levels to restore the compromised detox pathways, and remove the toxic exposures from the patients environment to prevent re-exposure to more toxins.



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by alterhorse View Post
    Here's a brief version of what I've learnt.....

    Read this about pamphlet about the metabolic pathways involved using Acetylcysteine for detoxing cases of acetaminophen overdose as an example of one kind of toxicity:

    http://uuhsc.utah.edu/poison/healthp...x/Vol7_No1.pdf

    In environmental medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_medicine) one of the keystones of it's philosophy is that all people are different, and some have more efficient detoxification pathways then do others. This can be due to genetic differences, nutritional deficiencies, food allergies and sensitivities that inflame the gastrointestinal tract and cause nutrient absorption issues, various disease states, parasites, etc...

    Next, consider the concept that each individual person will have a different level of exposures to environmental toxins depending on where they live, where they work, the levels of pollutants that are in the air they breathe, the pesticides on the food they eat, the amounts and kinds of chemicals that they come into contact with from their given environments.

    The philosophy then suggests, that when an individual with a less efficient, or an overwhelmed detox pathway (read that acetaminophen overdose pamphlet) comes into contact with more toxins from their environment then their detox pathways can handle. The body then begins to handle those toxin differently in an effort to remove them from an active state in the body, and one of the bodies methods, is to store toxins in fat cells (the brain is 60% fat).

    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41118846/n.../#.UaLlNI6UBp8

    When stored toxins reach certain levels in the body, environmental medicine believes that the presence of these toxins in the body can cause or aggravate, a multitude of different disease states, including mental illness.

    Thus one of the ideologies in environmental medicine, is to investigate a patients nutritional levels and potential for toxic environmental exposure. Then supplement the nutritional levels to restore the compromised detox pathways, and remove the toxic exposures from the patients environment to prevent re-exposure to more toxins.
    See, and this is what happens when you take scientific fact, and mush it with non-fact and scaredy-talk.

    Yes, there are drugs that "detox" other drugs, and yes, the body stores some substances in adipose tissue if it can't metabolize them (and this is not some kind of "OMG overwhelmed" alternate pathway, it's the norm for certain substances that can't be metabolized) - you only need to look at the death rates of the first-born Hong Kong pink dolphin babies to see that, the mother stores environmental pollutants until the first birth and then releases then in her milk, killing the first-born; later baby dolphins have a better chance or survival because the mother doesn't have as long to build up a high toxin level in her adipose tissue.

    But while the brain is 60% or so "fat", it is not adipose tissue - unless you want to say that every cell in your body is fat, because that's what's meant. They're talking about the fatty acids that make up the cell membranes, the myelin that covers nerves, etc. NOT fat cells in which, in the body, toxins may be stored.
    Even if the brain had adipose in it, it's protected by the blood-brain barrier.

    So a statement like
    and one of the bodies methods, is to store toxins in fat cells (the brain is 60% fat)
    is either clever fear-mongering, or simple ignorance. Choose your poison.

    And while environmental health is a legitimate topic that has to do with real science and measurements of pollutants like the ones listed in your wiki link, the name has been co-opted by the wooo. Quackwatch lists the American Academy of Environmental Medicine as a questionable organization (they totally believe in "detoxifiction"!) and the American Board of Environmental Medicine as a dubious certifying board, and neither is recognized by the American Board of Medical Specialties.


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  5. #25
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    Behavioral Measures of Neurotoxicity
    http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=1352&page=1



  6. #26
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    "Medical Specialties" is the LAST place you want to look for legitimate information on how to be naturally healthy--the way wild animals do it, the way pre-industrial man did it, the way our ancestors did it before it was considered "normal" to be medicalized from conception to grave.

    I have had a number of doctors tell me that nutrition education comprised just a few HOURS worth of instruction out of all the time they spent in medical school.
    Much of what they will tell you is just plain WRONG, and the proof is out there.

    Those who truly want to devote some time and intellectual effort to these questions and more should read Gary Taubes' book, Good Calories, Bad Calories.
    There is an awful lot more going on in our bodies than simplistic thermodynamics.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Why eat something that makes you fat and sick? That's what it all comes down to for me.
    EXACTLY!!!!!!! There you are LE Check in on my feel good thread!
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coanteen View Post
    Since it makes me neither fat nor sick, why shouldn't I eat it?

    And if gluten/grain was gone, we'd find other crap to overeat on. Taking away grain still won't change the laws of thermodynamics.
    No you wouldn't your body is so satisfied and craves nothing when you eat real whole foods.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  9. #29
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    It is shocking. I understood that one reason for the change with wheat is that it has become a GMO product. In order for it be reasonably healthy for you it should be an "heirloom" variety of wheat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Absolutely true. The go-to source on that is the book Wheat Belly.

    This is shocking to people at first, but there is NO biological reason for the human animal to consume any grain or any sugar at ALL. These are empty calories with no nutritional value whatsoever that cannot be better sourced from meat, fish, eggs, and vegetables. And indeed we have only been eating them for about 10,000 years. That's barely a blink on the scale of evolutionary time.

    One other thing most people don't realize is that just like those Purina focus-group rooms full of hungry cats, modern processed foods like snack chips are very carefully and knowingly ENGINEERED to be as addictive as they are. There's even an industry term for this--the "bliss zone." These are NOT combinations of ingredients that exist in Nature--they are the food equivalent of crack.


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  10. #30
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    It sounds like drug withdrawal - which it could be. High fructose corn syrup or it's off shoots is very addicting.

    Quote Originally Posted by sketcher View Post
    I did not read the whole thread but will say that when I cut out gluten cold turkey my body definitely went through something serious. Detox? I suppose you could call it that but man I was sick for the better part of two weeks and for part of that I mean sick with flu like symptoms (no fever) but that aches, massive fatigue, lightheaded, weak and lethargic, shaky awful, just awful.

    And now, if I accidentally ingest gluten - again with the flu like symptoms and irritable bowel until it clears itself....


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  11. #31
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    Veterinarians are no different. Look at who sponsors some of those "nutritional" classes as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    "Medical Specialties" is the LAST place you want to look for legitimate information on how to be naturally healthy--the way wild animals do it, the way pre-industrial man did it, the way our ancestors did it before it was considered "normal" to be medicalized from conception to grave.

    I have had a number of doctors tell me that nutrition education comprised just a few HOURS worth of instruction out of all the time they spent in medical school.
    Much of what they will tell you is just plain WRONG, and the proof is out there.

    Those who truly want to devote some time and intellectual effort to these questions and more should read Gary Taubes' book, Good Calories, Bad Calories.
    There is an awful lot more going on in our bodies than simplistic thermodynamics.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #32
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    Until you make an effort to change it - how do you know the difference.
    I didn't know the difference until I changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Why eat something that makes you fat and sick? That's what it all comes down to for me.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #33
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    To me personally, "detoxing" means cutting out something harmful from my diet.

    For instance, for 3 months I've abstained from alcoholic beverages. I am planning on keeping that up as long as I can. I only drink water, tea, and coffee. I need to cut out coffee too, for a while at least.
    Ottbs - The finish line is only the beginning!



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    Until you make an effort to change it - how do you know the difference.
    I didn't know the difference until I changed.
    Exactly right, I am still blown away by the results after only 3 months.
    My body is finally starting to be happy! And it only gets better!
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.


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  15. #35
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    Refined wheats/grains aren't good for the body. At all. Whole grains aren't an issue. At all. Cavemen ate grains. Apes will too. Many Asian countries thrive and live extremely long, healthy, fit lives on copious amounts of rice. Sugar...ugh...not good for you. Raw sugars are better/less problematic. Let's also remember that Mother Nature and evolution did *not* design the human body for the levels of longevity we reach now. So yes, eating tons of fats, etc, were what our ancestors ate. Long term issues weren't a problem since we weren't living long term anyway. We also needed the fats for keeping warm and excess energy to catch more high fats and outrun other high fats that wanted to nosh on us. Our current lifesyles have central heating, insulated buildings, we're not nomadic and we don't have to chase down our meals or outrun larger predators. Or fight for territory. Or all that fun stuff. So high fats aren't necessary since we won't utilize them. And what we don't use has a percentage that gets stored to do some damage. This is just like the "feed and trim domestic horses just like wild ones!" conversations. Apples to bananas.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


    9 members found this post helpful.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coanteen View Post
    Since it makes me neither fat nor sick, why shouldn't I eat it?

    And if gluten/grain was gone, we'd find other crap to overeat on. Taking away grain still won't change the laws of thermodynamics.
    Interestingly enough, we've been convinced for decades that the law of thermodynamics is how one should look at the obesity problem, yet there is heaps of evidence that shows this theory is completely flawed.
    It has very little to do with weight loss and it all has to do with ingesting sugar and grains (insulin growth factor/adipose tissue etc etc)
    If it were that simple, it would work. It doesn't.

    The reason that you should cut it out is that even if you don't feel sick, it's making you sick by essentially clogging your arteries (sugar=fat). I have enough skinny patients walking around after having heart attacks or developing t2 diabetes to prove it.


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  17. #37
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    Eat food, not too much, mostly plants.


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    No you wouldn't your body is so satisfied and craves nothing when you eat real whole foods.
    That would require
    1. listening to satiety signals
    2. eating only because you're hungry.

    Are you saying that people on a paleo or gluten-free diet can't have problems with emotional eating, or don't fall into the trap of mindless eating, neither of which has anything to do with satisfying actual physical hunger? Because...ummm, you clearly don't know enough people yet.


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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by thistleswamp View Post
    Interestingly enough, we've been convinced for decades that the law of thermodynamics is how one should look at the obesity problem, yet there is heaps of evidence that shows this theory is completely flawed.
    Errr? The daily caloric intake of North Americans has been rising steadily for decades. We eat more than we use, so it's stored. That's the overriding law (energy...it goes somewhere. It's either used or stored).
    There are personal metabolic differences in how much you use vs store (how efficient your metabolism is, for ex, or illnesses that affect metabolic rate like hyper/hypothyroid). But they all function within the law of thermodynamics.

    We eat too much. We eat more and more. Whatever little personal tweaks of metabolism exist, whatever we learn about glucose metabolism, the population eats too much.

    Btw, I've just come back from Nepal. The population in the Khumbu subsists mostly on rice and potato, a LOT of rice and potato. Meat is a luxury and animals are eaten when they die, not slaughtered for food. Vegetables are extremely rare, unless you count potato. Protein comes from a small amount of lentils.

    Basically, starch, complemented by starch, with a side of starch.
    Did not see a single fat person. Not one. Not. One.


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  20. #40
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    I'm not sure what you're all are trying to say. I thought this thread was supposed to be about detoxification. So if you're going to venture into the toxicity of foods, please provide some examples of food toxins and the negative effects on the body it's alleged to have.

    I can give a classic example, such as Xenoestrogens and Phytoestrogens in foods, and the effect they can have on puberty.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19478717

    Overeating certin foods can obviously cause issues. Beriberi pandemic is one example from history where diets high in polished white rice led to thiamine deficiency that in turn manifested as disease of the nervous and cardiovascular systems.

    Food dyes and hyperactivity in children....



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