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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Oct. 30, 2005
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    California
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    1,119

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    Breeding quality horses in the US is fairly much a thankless effort in terms of compensation, and for those of us who have given it our all in terms of resources, it is essentially a non-profit donation. I've seen others post this same sentiment in the past, and once, early in the game, thought such posters were being too negative, or even arrogant for saying so, but having weathered all of the various economic storms of loss myself including lousy frozen doses from stallion holders abroad in nearly a decade of participation, I now realize how valid that view is/can be. The last thing I want to see now is European stallion owners of really popular stallions bitching about a minority of mare owners in North America who got a rare break with frozen semen. I'm all for some real transparency in terms of frozen semen sales from abroad. Show me some real stats, not just "there have been some pregnancies". My hat is off to many North American stallion holders who have to deal with so much fantasy competition
    Last edited by Indy-lou; Jul. 13, 2013 at 03:07 AM.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Nov. 5, 2000
    Posts
    10,511

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Yes... and no. Yes for the inseminating vet/tech but when I do my own breeding (not the frozen, but the rest I do it myself most of the time), but if I am the one who puts the semen in the mare, I am the one who signs it.
    And in that case, you are considered the inseminating technician.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    Regarding the signature of SO or agent, yes it is true for fresh semen breedings. But for frozen ones... not always. I had a Graf Top I colt in 2008 that we registered with GOV and I presented, along with the breeding certificate, the invoice for the dose I bought. I did not had a signature from the Canadian Hanoverian Society (agent) or Langestut Celle, because I was not registering the foal Hanoverian. But then, I got the breeding cert. signed from Marefield Meadows for our Dauphin filly from last year, but I guess it is because Dauphin's owner is in NA and sells the semen here. Not sure I would have got one from Celle.
    All I know is that every single time I have been involved in a discussion about BCs, the registry was adamant about a cert that was signed by both owner/agent and inseminating vet/tech, because the office in Germany required them. In fact, I know of cases where issuing of registration papers was delayed for a LONG time because the breeder couldn't/wouldn't supply a signed BC, and the office in Germany wouldn't process the papers until they got a signed BC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    An anecdote: I bought in 2007 2 doses from an semen broker in NA, 1 Chacco Blue and 1 Daddy Cool. Back then I was planning to go to ISR OldNA for the registration of the foals. When the agent asked me for wich registry I will need breeding certificates, I answered ISR OldNA, and the agent refused to give me a breeding cert for ISR Oldenburg NA. She said that she was not delivering breeding cert for this particular registry. Would have liked to know before sending money, but well, both mares turned out to be not-pregnant so it ended the matter there. I guess if I would have had foals from these doses, I would have had to do without signed breeding certificates...
    I agree the agent should have told you she didn't issue BCs for certain registries, but I do know that some agents work primarily with one or two specific registries, and those are the only BCs they stock. I have also found that many registries accept BCs from other registries, as long as they contain all pertinent information, including signatures. For instance, I have seen OHBS/GOV accept BCs from AHS, ISR, etc. - in the past, they filled out an OHBS/GOV cert at the inspection, and stapled the one from the other registry to the OHBS/GOV cert. Also, FWIW, I have seen BCs come in that are not even registry-specific - some SOs issue their own generic cert.



  3. #83
    Join Date
    Nov. 5, 2000
    Posts
    10,511

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy-lou View Post
    Breeding quality horses in the US is fairly much a thankless effort in terms of compensation, and for those of us who have given it our all in terms of resources, it is essentially a non-profit donation. I've seen others post this same sentiment in the past, and once, early in the game, thought such posters were being too negative, or even arrogant for saying so, but having weathered all of the various economic storms of loss myself including lousy frozen doses from stallion holders abroad in nearly a decade of participation, I now realize how valid that view is/can be. The last thing I want to see now is European stallion owners of really popular stallions bitching about a minority of mare owners in North America who got a rare break with frozen semen. I'm all for some real transparency in terms of frozen semen sales from abroad. Show me some real stats, not just "there have been some pregnancies". My hat is off to many North American stallion holders who have to deal with so much fantasy competition
    Yes, I agree. And many SOs will tell you it is a thankless effort to stand a stallion, with all the money put into buying it, rearing it (unless they buy it as a grown horse), training it, getting it licensed, meeting performance requirements, competing it, etc., only to find they attract only a couple of outside breedings every year (except for certain well-known exceptions) In general, there are very few SOs making ends meet on the cost of having a stallion, esp. here in NA.

    And for all the big gun stallions in Germany/Holland, etc., that are being used on hundreds of mares every year, there are dozens who AREN'T being used nearly enough to justify their upkeep. Every big stallion station has some of them, and it costs them just as much to keep those horses as it costs to keep the popular ones, and the owners oftentimes end up trying to sell those less popular stallions.

    Regarding stallion owners "bitching" about mare owners, this thread is a perfect example of it being a two-way street. SOs bitch about mare owners splitting doses, MOs bitch about SOs raising prices. In the end, the market will sort itself out as MOs vote with their pocketbooks.


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  4. #84
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    277

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy-lou View Post
    I'm all for some real transparency in terms of frozen semen sales from abroad. Show me some real stats, not just "there have been some pregnancies".
    ^^I couldn't agree more!^^


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2006
    Posts
    3,058

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    For an informal semen splitting dose poll I'm putting together for the UDBB I came up with the questions below. (The only reason I'm going with UDBB is because it will be an anonymous poll so nobody will know what anyone else does.)

    DO ANY OTHER SITUATIONS APPLY? I want to make sure I've worded the questions correctly BEFORE I start the poll.

    DO NOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS HERE. Either add to or suggest different questions.


    When breeding with frozen semen:

    I always split one full dose of semen in half for use on two separate cycles
    I use each straw in one full dose of semen individually per cycle
    I split doses in half but I also use full doses.
    I have never split a dose of semen and use the entire dose per cycle

    So.. any changes or additions??????



  6. #86
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2002
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    8,381

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    bits, IMHO your poll will be meaningless. There will not be enough results to matter. It will represent only breeders who go to a lttle known internet bb and take the time to answer a poll that is not terribly well written.

    Much more telling would be stats gathered by SO or agents asking whether a semen sale resulted in a pregnancy (or pregnancies) with no penalty for acknowledging successful dose splitting. Of course, getting people to answer such a questionnaire will be hard to do - unless they are reporting failure, as people love to complain and are more slow to praise.

    One needs to know how many pregnancies occur from the number of doses sold. Even with that information, there will be examples when good semen was wasted by bad practices or on infertile mares. So, it will be very difficult to interpret.


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  7. #87
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2006
    Posts
    3,058

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    Apples and oranges.*

    All I want to find out how common it is to split doses.

    Is it a common practice or not? *

    Semen quality/success rate per stallion is something else entirely.*



  8. #88
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2012
    Posts
    678

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    Quote Originally Posted by back in the saddle View Post
    For an informal semen splitting dose poll I'm putting together for the UDBB I came up with the questions below. (The only reason I'm going with UDBB is because it will be an anonymous poll so nobody will know what anyone else does.)

    DO ANY OTHER SITUATIONS APPLY? I want to make sure I've worded the questions correctly BEFORE I start the poll.

    DO NOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS HERE. Either add to or suggest different questions.


    When breeding with frozen semen:

    I always split one full dose of semen in half for use on two separate cycles
    I use each straw in one full dose of semen individually per cycle
    I split doses in half but I also use full doses.
    I have never split a dose of semen and use the entire dose per cycle

    So.. any changes or additions??????
    My vet decides how much to use based on ultrasound result
    My vet decides how much to use pre-ovulation and post ovuation
    My vet decides based on direct motility examination
    My vet attempts to reserve some for a second try
    I tell my vet to use it all- semen may not be very good


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2012
    Posts
    678

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    Just a side note - I have been breeding since the early 90's. I have never ever bred an 'extra' foal from a split dose of frozen, and my vet, whom I pay for his expertise, makes the decisions to split or not. My vet has, thru his expertise, managed to get me more than one try where the second try resulted in a live foal.
    Some times, the first cycle you try, ends up not quite right for timing, in my experience.
    I have also bred quite a few from embryo transfer and have never managed to get more than one embryo.
    I have managed to come up empty many times.
    So, frozen stallion owners can rest assured, that they have never been cheated by me.

    Edits to add: if I don't get a pregnancy from frozen, I look elsewhere. I avoid stallions with poor frozen results no matter how nice the stallion. If stallion owners start cutting the straw size, they will reduce their business and mare owners will be forced to use local fresh stallions. Maybe that's for the best for local stallion owners.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Nov. 26, 2005
    Posts
    721

    Default Another Scenario

    Suppose you buy 2 doses from a stallion to get two foals. No LFG.
    You use one dose on one mare, she conceives, but fails to deliver a live foal.
    Would you be allowed to split the remaining dose between two mares to end up with two foals ?
    Not a theoretical question, thanks !



  11. #91
    Join Date
    Mar. 10, 2006
    Posts
    272

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    The whole point of shipping a full dose is to maximise the chance of conception.

    Halve the dose, halve your chance.

    Half a dose = double your chance = bad math!


    3 members found this post helpful.

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Jun. 13, 2009
    Posts
    244

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    i can only answer for Australia but here it is common to split dose as we have several semen agents who sell the semen under those terms - you can buy one dose only and get as many pregnancies as you like from that dose

    A lot of the german and dutch stallions are sold with no restriction on the frozen semen so you can happily split the dose if you can buy it under these terms

    I also import my own semen direct from Germany and Holland so I can do this, otherwise some semen agents sell at only one pregnancy per dose

    I only ever use 1 straw, or I work on a quarter of a dose

    so if a stallion is sold in 3 or 4 straws per dose, I use 1 straw

    if a stallion is 8 straws per dose - I use 2 straws only

    I have been doing this long enough now to know it is not the amount of semen that matters , but provided we are talking about good quality semen of course

    I started out doing it this way just by accident

    my first time was with a dose of Lord Sinclair which is 4 straws. I put 3 straws in a mare who did not take and had 1 left over
    so I put that 1 straw in the same mare the next cycle and bang she went in foal

    this sort of thing happened a few times and then I got in the habit of using a quarter of a dose

    and it works. its also better for mares who get fluid, you get far less of a reaction to the semen using small doses

    the semen agents here do take statistics but are not good at passing on the 1 straw successes. they would rather sell you 3 doses for one pregnancy - they don't make as much money from 1 straw pregnancies

    Paulamc


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Apr. 8, 2009
    Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,110

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    Here in Nz we are similar to Paulamc. often there is nothing in the contract that stops you from splitting doses. In the past I have seemed to buy semen that comes with a 'one foal only' contract. Thus far I have not been brave enough to split a dose. I bow to your bigger goolies Paulamc



  14. #94

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    I do not have as much problem the stallion owners raising the prices when thinking they are having their doses split. But, I do think both hitting the mare owner with both a higher per dose price AND smaller dose size is perhaps taking it a bit far. Sure lower the dose size to make splitting less desirable...fine, but both limiting the dose size and raising the prices will entice more dose splitting as well if its expensive we certainly want to get more than one shot at it! point in case, I wonder how many Totilis foals have been conceived with partial doses? At that price...I would be treating it like it was gold!



  15. #95
    Join Date
    Jun. 13, 2009
    Posts
    244

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    I must add that I do all my own breeding work, ultrasounding and inseminating. I don't think I would be doing the one straw thing with a vet - too many variables. I often put semen in BEFORE ovulation as well which I think makes an enormous difference.
    Not always but I often do. I really don't think that more than 1 straw or quarter of a dose is necessary, I have trialled it enough times to be sure

    Paulamc



  16. #96
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 2008
    Posts
    1,660

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    Hpwever, lowering the dose size to the point where conception is not a high likelihood (all else going smoothly) is never acceptable, regardless of pricing.


    4 members found this post helpful.

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