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  1. #1
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    Default The IRS Thread UPDATE post #238 IT WASN'T EVEN A KERFUFFLE!

    Here's what angers me about the IRS kerfuffle: it's a kerfuffle!

    NOT ONE Tea Party group was denied tax-exempt status. Not a one.

    IRS management left this lone office with the job of dealing with the deluge of applications after Citizens United, with no advice on how to deal with them. These public servants were just doing their jobs. All the members of Congress and the administration, including and especially President Obama, who have leaped to the microphone to denounce the IRS, are the people who deserve all of our contempt, not the civil servants.

    The Democrats have learned zip from the Republicans. When you are attacked, DOUBLE DOWN, no matter how wrong your actions appear to be.

    Here are my talking points: You are damn right, these political groups deserve scrutiny. Because strictly political organizations cannot apply for tax exempt status.

    Everyone knows these groups exist to promote a political agenda, whether they are on the left or the right. Why is everyone pretending they are social service orgs?

    But go ahead--name one organization that was harmed by IRS scrutiny.
    Last edited by Bristol Bay; Jun. 26, 2013 at 07:23 PM.
    A helmet saved my life.

    2014 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!


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  2. #2
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    You might want to read a little deeper from different sources. It's not kerfluffle. The questions asked are beyond the pale, the audits and visits by different organizations in a short period of time outrageous and it will get worse before it gets better. Democrats are "on board" with this and it is very serious.


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  3. #3
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    "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" Julian Lennon


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  4. #4
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    It's beyond ridiculous that ANY political group is getting tax exempt status. Damn right it should be investigated, and ALL of those groups need to be denied this special status. THIS is the problem. All of these nut political groups are getting special privileges because they are claiming "most" of their work is community good? THAT is why they get to hide their contributors? So, Citizens's United gets passed because this "community good" group gets a law put in that we can donate unlimited funds to politicians, and because of that, they don't have to say who gave all of that money?

    Every one if those groups needs to be shut down since they changed the wording from "all" must be for community good, to "most." NO way should ANY political group get that status.


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  5. #5
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    my god BB what the hell have you been drinking?

    You have a runaway government agency that picks a single group who it choices to be the emeny and is hiding behind "I do not know who said do it"

    This makes Nixon look like a novice


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  6. #6
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    So, this was found because of an Treasury Department investigation. That's what we want. I would say that if this was really about being a target and coverup... they did it wrong.

    501(c)(4) are not supposed to have political activity as a primary purpose or activity. Honestly most of these probably should have been denied or reclassified.

    None of the Tea Party groups was denied.

    By contrast, some left leaning groups were denied and even caused their parent organizations to lose 501(c)(4).

    Applying to be a non-profit is about very clearly laying out your activities and intents. It is intrusive. Having done it, several years back, other than the legitimacy it gives you, I'm not sure it's worth doing except for the 501(c)(3) where you want to get tax-deductible donations.

    It's not right to single out by ideology - absolutely not. It's appropriate to fire people who even allowed the appearance of impropriety along those lines. On the other hand, I don't see the big giant scandal that others do - I see a flood of questionable applications that were oddly similar and an office that was short staffed. It was stupid and it needs to be corrected.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  7. #7
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    WASHINGTON — There's a framed Wall Street Journal editorial outside Fred Wertheimer's office that still makes him smile. The headline: "The man who ruined politics."

    Eighteen years later, politics are doing just fine as one whiff of scandal-beset Washington attests.

    Headlines track the uproar over the Internal Revenue Service's singling out tea party groups. But if you ask Wertheimer, who has been battling for good government long before the public heard of the Cincinnati IRS office, the outcry obscures a deeper scandal.



    "We fully support the investigation going on into the improper targeting," said Wertheimer, president of Democracy 21. "But we also think it's essential to investigate why what we believe are blatant abuses of the tax laws were never challenged by the IRS. These phony groups were created solely for the purpose of hiding their donors."

    Wertheimer isn't talking about local tea party groups that have sought tax-exempt status but big players such as Crossroads GPS and Priorities USA that have unleashed a torrent of money into elections but escaped the scrutiny the small organizations received.

    Many of the ads you saw last fall bashing President Barack Obama's policies or slamming Mitt Romney came from Crossroads GPS, Priorities USA and similar groups. Unlike exclusively political organizations, they do not have to disclose donors.

    "In 2012, C4 groups accounted for more than $250 million in dark money expenditures in federal elections," Wertheimer said, using the shorthand for section 501(c)(4) of the tax law. "The interests of the American people are being violated because they have a right to basic campaign finance information."

    Crossroads GPS, started by Republican strategist Karl Rove, and Priorities USA , run by a former aide to Obama, are technically "social welfare" groups. The law says the nonprofit groups must be operated "exclusively" for the promotion of the public good. But IRS guidelines state, "to be operated exclusively to promote social welfare, an organization must operate primarily to further the common good and general welfare of the people of the community."

    Behold the rub: Exclusively versus primarily.

    In a series of letters to the IRS, Wertheimer has challenged the tax status of Crossroads GPS and Priorities USA, arguing, for example, that the fact that Crossroads reported spending $70 million on campaign ads in 2012 is "prima facie evidence that the organization does have a 'primary purpose' to engage in campaign activities."

    The C4 designation is rooted in tax law from 1913 but it was a 2010 U.S. Supreme Court decision, Citizens United vs. Federal Election Commission, allowing corporations to spend unlimited amounts on elections that led to the proliferation of nonprofit groups Wertheimer and other watchdogs say are flaunting the law.

    Wertheimer's Democracy 21 has been pestering the IRS to take a closer look at Crossroads and Priorities and reconcile the difference between the law and its guidelines.

    The mess the IRS created by targeting tea party groups who also wanted tax-exempt status could make the agency reluctant to touch the issue.

    "Until this all settles down, it could," said Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz. "We have to make sure we have eliminated all aspects of discrimination in the IRS that is obviously taking place. But once that is done there is still a need for overall campaign finance reform. There will be scandals. I have promised that since the Supreme Court decision. You cannot have that much money washing around without corruption."

    Leaning back in a chair, Wertheimer, who is 74 and has a white moustache and a ring of white hair around a bald crown, looks more grandfather than tooth-bearing government adversary. But the Harvard-educated lawyer, whose wife is Linda Wertheimer of National Public Radio, has a reputation as a relentless advocate for open government.

    "Even though the IRS is under enormous pressure right now, we're not going to walk away," he said. "We're currently exploring bringing a lawsuit and we will see what other avenues we can look at. These battles are impossible to win, until you win."

    He has been at it since 1971, when he landed a job with Common Cause and headed up lobbying on campaign finance issues. Watergate soon broke, pushing the issue and Wertheimer to the fore. Over the years, he has been involved in some of the top reforms, including the 2002 "soft money" ban limiting individual contributions to political parties.

    Wertheimer has been cast a hero and villain by people in both parties. Famously, one anti-reform Democrat in the 1970s dismissed him as "that bald-headed bastard." The 1995 Wall Street Journal editorial framed in Wertheimer's office blames him for the "cockamamie financial gauntlet we inflict on our potential leaders," a reference to Watergate-era reforms that included limits on individual political contributions and creation of the Federal Election Commission.

    Critics today accuse him of hiding contempt for conservative causes behind the watchdog cloak. "Fred is a partisan Democrat who believes in limitations on free speech and is trying to get the IRS and full power of the federal government to shut down his opponents," said Jonathan Collegio, spokesman for Crossroads GPS.

    Wertheimer said Democracy 21 does not have the resources to deal with all the liberal and conservative groups that have claimed a tax exemption. "Instead we picked what we believed at the time were egregious examples."

    Wertheimer has urged the IRS to set a clear limit on the amount of money a group can spend on campaign activity, say, 5 or 10 percent, not the 49 percent groups generally think is acceptable (a standard the IRS has never established), or to follow the original intent of the law and bar any political activity. Groups could still engage in politics by forming so-called 527s, which fall under a different section of the law and allow unlimited contributions but full disclosure of donors.

    But after repeated attempts to force a change, all Wertheimer has gotten is a letter in July 2012 stating the IRS is "aware of the current public interest in the issue" and that it will "consider proposed changes in this area."

    It was signed by Lois Lerner, director of the IRS division on tax-exempt organizations who disclosed earlier this month that tea party groups were targeted for special scrutiny and who on Wednesday told a House committee she had done nothing wrong before invoking her Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.


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  8. #8
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    I thought that as the investigation has continued it was becoming apparent that Christian based groups were also targeted.


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    So, this was found because of an Treasury Department investigation. That's what we want. I would say that if this was really about being a target and coverup... they did it wrong.

    501(c)(4) are not supposed to have political activity as a primary purpose or activity. Honestly most of these probably should have been denied or reclassified.

    None of the Tea Party groups was denied.

    By contrast, some left leaning groups were denied and even caused their parent organizations to lose 501(c)(4).

    Applying to be a non-profit is about very clearly laying out your activities and intents. It is intrusive. Having done it, several years back, other than the legitimacy it gives you, I'm not sure it's worth doing except for the 501(c)(3) where you want to get tax-deductible donations.

    It's not right to single out by ideology - absolutely not. It's appropriate to fire people who even allowed the appearance of impropriety along those lines. On the other hand, I don't see the big giant scandal that others do - I see a flood of questionable applications that were oddly similar and an office that was short staffed. It was stupid and it needs to be corrected.
    Wrong. Read my post, please.
    "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" Julian Lennon


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  10. #10
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    Well, good for them! ALL political groups should be denied! You seriously want political groups given tax exempt status AND be ale to hide their dinar lists because it's "mostly for the community good?"

    Wow.


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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beentheredonethat View Post
    Well, good for them! ALL political groups should be denied! You seriously want political groups given tax exempt status AND be ale to hide their dinar lists because it's "mostly for the community good?"

    Wow.
    I agree. Since "Citizens United" it seems PAC's from both sides of the aisle have spiraled out of control. I also believe lobbyists have silenced the voice of most Americans and need to be done away with as well.

    http://www.facethefactsusa.org/facts...gress-covered/
    "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" Julian Lennon


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  12. #12
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    100% right. This was the first step in the RIGHT direction. They should have been flagging and NOt granting tax exempt access to ALL political groups and ALL groups hiding donors

    No lobbyists is another big step we need. The last one is ALL political donations go into a pool ALL candidates share and use, and the super rich don't get to use their money to out buy others.


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  13. #13
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    My comments are on the off course thread.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathy s. View Post
    Kathy, this is exactly the kind of bull$hit I am talking about. Anyone who thinks True the Vote is not a political operation whose purpose is to prevent voters from exercising their rights is lying.

    And shame on Obama and congressional Democrats for piling on instead of fighting the real enemy, Citizens United.

    http://www.propublica.org/article/a-...fraud-watchdog
    A helmet saved my life.

    2014 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!


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  15. #15
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    Problem one - any political group being able to gain tax exempt status, left or right.

    Problem two - the IRS targeting, per IG report, any group who applies legally for tax exempt status. That is the problem here, "left" leaning groups were approved within 2-3 months. "Right" leaning and Tea Party groups were delayed up to 2+ years. Plus many of these groups received letters asking for membership lists, names and email addresses of anyone connected in any way with their group. Some were even asked to state how much cash they had at that moment and how much cash did they normally keep on them everyday.

    Problem three - an administration acting as if they knew nothing about this. Been there done that with Nixon's enemies list and Watergate. It was wrong to take those actions and to lie about it then and it is still wrong.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim


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  16. #16
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    Really, the President of the US is looking over the IRS and micro managing an agency that is suppose to be independent of political oversight ? This is where I just cannot even try to explain how government works. If someone is so ignorant to think that our current president is dictating IRS policy, then really buy yourself a clue or better yet take a civics class from the local college.


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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Really, the President of the US is looking over the IRS and micro managing an agency that is suppose to be independent of political oversight ? This is where I just cannot even try to explain how government works. If someone is so ignorant to think that our current president is dictating IRS policy, then really buy yourself a clue or better yet take a civics class from the local college.
    That sounds good except if it was a Republican in office liberals would be screaming... oh, that has already happened.

    Also, why is this woman http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-points-scrub/

    being promoted and why hasn't the president put his foot down about the corruption in his administration?? Obama's house of cards has fallen. If he was serious about cleaning things up he would fire all those involved in this mess. Instead, he defends everyone involved.
    "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" Julian Lennon


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  18. #18
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    So Obama can just fire a IRS civil servant......again....education is a wonderful thing...BTW-Lois Lerner essentially will likely lose her job. Where is her constitutional rights, but hey Big Government is a good thing when it is a hearing with the GOP.

    Obama's "house of cards" gee, prey tell what on God's green earth is that ? Facts are missing with the GOP group yet again...



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    So Obama can just fire a IRS civil servant......again....education is a wonderful thing...BTW-Lois Lerner essentially will likely lose her job. Where is her constitutional rights, but hey Big Government is a good thing when it is a hearing with the GOP.

    Obama's "house of cards" gee, prey tell what on God's green earth is that ? Facts are missing with the GOP group yet again...

    Libs would be screaming if a Republican had been doing all this! Liberals, Own it and change the outcome instead of passing blame to conservatives.

    Bengazi, IRS, AP and Fox News. Oh, and

    http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news...rs-emails?lite

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...y.html?hpid=z2

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-points-scrub/

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...-kathleen-seb/
    "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" Julian Lennon


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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    So Obama can just fire a IRS civil servant......again....education is a wonderful thing...BTW-Lois Lerner essentially will likely lose her job. Where is her constitutional rights, but hey Big Government is a good thing when it is a hearing with the GOP.

    Obama's "house of cards" gee, prey tell what on God's green earth is that ? Facts are missing with the GOP group yet again...
    She is being paid while on administrative leave. Citizens would not be given that privilege.
    "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" Julian Lennon


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