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  1. #1941
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Ok Sheliah, I think you're missing the point.

    Those statistics are just general statistics. These are the horses in each category.

    When you look at the horses that are required to have a specific function - that is, not just stand around in a pasture eating for the occasional trail ride, what categories would *you* include?

    I am not trying to put forth any agenda, I'm trying to look at impact.
    I would have performance horses (including race horses, show horses, polo and rodeo horses). I would have recreational horses (trail horses, pasture pets and those horses that might go to a local show once or twice a year). Work horses (carriage horses, police horses, horses used in cultural expressions such as the Amish, the few horses that work on farms and ranches).

    I am not sure what point I am missing? I am not trying to disagree with you.
    Sheilah



  2. #1942
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Thanks jenm! I was hoping that I wasn't just missing it!
    I sent an email and really hope I get a response!
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg



  3. #1943
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    Was reading an article about Valley Meats and found this re: testing of meats in the US for residues:

    http://www.fsis.usda.gov/PDF/2012_Blue_Book.pdf

    Looking for more detailed information...

    this is a good article with many links [in red] to check out:

    http://www.latitudenews.com/story/th...can-horsemeat/

    Videos from above article:
    http://www.cbc.ca/thenational/indept...es-061008.html

    http://www.cbc.ca/thenational/indept...es-061008.html


    READ THIS LETTER, particularly the part about testing equine kidneys for bute residue vs testing muscle [came from the above article]:
    http://latitudenews.wpengine.netdna-...et-Officer.pdf

    2010 Tufts University study of racehorses who are shipped to slaughter
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20176071

    Here's more of that study, and it includes many references:
    http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/..._slaughter.pdf

    Analysis of the study results:
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/vickerye...-horse-meat/3/


    letter to Parliament from Jorgensem re: US horses and drug residues:
    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/...EN&language=SL

    Another interesting look at slaughter:
    http://www.equinewelfarealliance.org...onse-final.pdf

    If what you want is numbers, this article has some:
    https://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=79525

    'Defenders of horse slaughter have long pointed to USDA testing records which consistently showed no positive results for PBZ. The new study shows that the USDA testing could not have been accurate. Indeed, the study uncovered a pilot test performed by the USDA in 2004 and 2005 that used a different testing technique and found 8.3% of the meat to be contaminated with PBZ. The pilot program had been subsequently discontinued.

    The study estimates that sixty seven million pounds of horse meat derived from US horses were sent overseas for human consumption in 2008. If 8.3% of this meat contained phenylbutazone residues, it would translate to over 5 million pounds of contaminated meat.


    Interesting points made by the GAO in their report
    http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-11-228

    'First, among other management challenges, the current transport regulation only applies to horses transported directly to slaughtering facilities. A 2007 proposed rule would more broadly include horses moved first to stockyards, assembly points, and feedlots before being transported to Canada and Mexico, but delays in issuing a final rule have prevented USDA from protecting horses during much of their transit to slaughtering facilities. In addition, GAO found that many owner/shipper certificates, which document compliance with the regulation, are being returned to USDA without key information, if they are returned at all.
    Second, annual legislative prohibitions on USDA's use of federal funds for inspecting horses impede USDA's ability to improve compliance with, and enforcement of, the transport regulation.
    Third, GAO analysis shows that U.S. horses intended for slaughter are now traveling significantly greater distances to reach their final destination, where they are not covered by U.S. humane slaughter protections. With cessation of domestic slaughter, USDA lacks staff and resources at the borders and foreign slaughtering facilities that it once had in domestic facilities to help identify problems with shipping paperwork or the condition of horses before they are slaughtered.
    GAO suggests that Congress may wish to reconsider restrictions on the use of federal funds to inspect horses for slaughter or, instead, consider a permanent ban on horse slaughter. '
    Last edited by Angela Freda; Jun. 12, 2013 at 05:20 PM.
    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/



  4. #1944
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Thanks jenm! I was hoping that I wasn't just missing it!

    Sheilah, and before my intent gets too much muddier - this is all based on the idea that the folks on this board want to preserve the use of horses for recreational purposes and work (that includes all of the categories) but do not want slaughter to happen. When you're considering a system like that, you have to look at the whole picture, and that includes the economic impacts, which is the current piece under the microscope.

    If we don't care about all of the different industries continuing, then it is enough to have a simple message.
    Well, I for one care very much about the various horse industries continuing. I love to go to the races here at our little third tier track. I love my recreational use of my own horse. I love attending shows local, regional, national and international in nature (as a spectator). And I have been known to pay for a carriage ride or two while on vacation.

    I am not sure how "simple" a message I would need? My whole point is that this is a complex issue and you can't rely on numbers entirely, since so much of contemporary horse culture lies in that gray area that does not exist for other typical farm species. Just as we have taken the dog and moved it into an area that exists separate from other animals and one that is entirely a human construct based on perceptual devices that rely on "feeling". Then you made my point by using your own thoughts, beliefs and feelings regarding how to read the statistics you were quoting.

    You say we need to place the economic impact under a microscope and I completely, absolutely agree with you. I am urging you to deconstruct the statistics, and to examine them under a microscope.

    I do feel as if we are now speaking at each other, rather than to each other. And that was not my original intent.

    So, carry on.
    Sheilah



  5. #1945
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    I do feel as if we are now speaking at each other, rather than to each other. And that was not my original intent.
    Mine either. I actually feel like we are speaking past each other lol!

    Ok- so I like your categories but that's not how the American Horse Council separated them out exactly.

    Oh one second - my pony kid is coming...well, maybe more like an hour...



  6. #1946
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    OGP, I know your personal experience tells you that most horses are sport horses and are used for shows, but I'm not sure you've got that right. Anyone know what the figures are for backyard trail horses, occasional riding, companion, as opposed to show horses?

    Just on my road alone...I have two retired horses (one is a boarder), across the road they have four. Two are trail horses, two are pasture ornaments. Down the road, five...none are ever ridden. A little further and 3, one is a trail horse...a very infrequent trail horse. Then, at the end of the road is the disgusting hoarder/breeder. He's moved on to minis since the market dropped for horses. No feed, no hay, no worming, no vet care...just breeds what he's got to what he's got. And yes, I've reported him, several times, for all the good it did...none.

    I had the only show horses on my road and I lost them both last summer.

    I'm going to guess, in my county, there's a dressage barn or two, a barrel racing western barn, a couple of BL TWH and the rest are trail or companion horses. That's my experience.
    I can count 56 within a 3-mile radius of my house that are not competing; most are backyard pleasure, trail, or beginner lesson horses. A large number are retired, and I can only think of about 3 that have -ever- competed. Depends heavily upon the neighborhood!



  7. #1947
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    I can count 56 within a 3-mile radius of my house that are not competing; most are backyard pleasure, trail, or beginner lesson horses. A large number are retired, and I can only think of about 3 that have -ever- competed. Depends heavily upon the neighborhood!
    Lady E, again, that doesn't add up with the stats of the American Horse Council.

    Racehorses and Show Horses (main purpose) alone make up a larger number than "Pleasure Horses" which, as defined by the AHC are not show horses.

    And that's ok, each region is different.

    Sheilah, I think the part that we're speaking past each other about is that you are assuming that I'm meaning that those horses aren't loved, thought of as companions or whatever. I'm not assuming any of that. I'm sure in each of those categories there are a percentage of owners who care and a percentage of owners who don't. Thats probably harder to determine, because in my area, the show horse owners are the ones more likely to have retirement plans in place etc, and the trail horse owners are the ones buying and selling at low end auctions.

    That is why I was trying to deconstruct it as a facts and figures examination of the money involved and where it goes on a national level.

    Make any more sense? :-)



  8. #1948
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    I can count 56 within a 3-mile radius of my house that are not competing; most are backyard pleasure, trail, or beginner lesson horses. A large number are retired, and I can only think of about 3 that have -ever- competed. Depends heavily upon the neighborhood!
    I agree with you. I board my horse at a horse park, and 99% of the horses there are competition horses.

    I board my mule at a different facility, and it's the opposite there. Most of the horses are trail/pleasure horses and only a handful, including my mule, go to shows.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg



  9. #1949
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    Nope, not at all, OGP. I wasn't considering who loves what or why at all. In this case I don't think we are reading from the same book, let alone reading from the same page. We can,"Yes, but..." each other until the cows come home. I think the disconnect is that we are addressing two different aspects of the question.

    And I don't know how to word my aspect any differently, or how to read your aspect any differently, to change that.
    Sheilah



  10. #1950
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    Back in the "olden" days the warmblood was an oddity. Tb's did nearly everything - now days you don't see that many tb's particularly in the h/j ring, that used to almost all be tb's. It's exciting to see that tb's are making somewhat of a comeback in eventing. They got a bad rap for being hot and/or crazy - thus the quieter supposedly more ammie friendly warmblood.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    Why do you say "used to be" when that is not necessarily
    the case. I don't know the state in which you reside, but here in California, thoroughbreds are so popular they even have their own show series:

    http://thoroughbredclassic.org/

    The big and always wait listed Spring Event at Woodside also had a Preliminary Challenge High Point OTTB award.

    They obviously aren't as popular in the hunter ring, but that doesn't mean they aren't sought after as show horses.

    Again, it may be a trend you see in your area, but it's not the case around here!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #1951
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Ok, once again, Laura's conjecture was that there were more pleasure horses than working horses. I consider show horses and racehorses to be working horses in that they are not purely for leisure.

    Therefore, to get the number of horses that "work", which means that aren't just standing around, waiting to go for a trail ride once a week, you have to add up the race category, the show category AND the other category.
    No, you're putting words in my mouth. I asked if anyone knew what the make-up was and I was wondering if you were using your personal experience to color your conclusions. I offered my personal experience to show that it my be different.

    I'm also very curious how the study was conducted...and I'm not willing to pay $35 for the entire study. I wonder if it's based on the USDA census, which would only count those horses that are identified through a business...whether boarding or ownership. For those of us who own horses, don't claim them as a hobby or a business, how would we have been counted.

    In other words, I question how accurate the numbers are for someone's backyard, personal horse.

    In any case, OGP, I think the up or down on slaughter will be decided on emotional terms, not purely financial ones. We don't raise horses for food in this country...the handwriting is on the wall, barring another great depression.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #1952
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Ok Sheliah, I think you're missing the point.

    Those statistics are just general statistics. These are the horses in each category.

    When you look at the horses that are required to have a specific function - that is, not just stand around in a pasture eating for the occasional trail ride, what categories would *you* include?

    I am not trying to put forth any agenda, I'm trying to look at impact.
    I'm intrigued. You have expended a very substantial portion of time over the past week "trying to look at impact." You are making a valiant attempt to codify everything with numbers, statistics, and references. Putting a dollar amount on everything, and attempting to clarify figures from every part of the equine population seems to be one of your primary aims. No public-relations, emotional, or cultural component is admitted to the discussion, which is unusual enough, along with the academic tone of your questioning, to make me wonder what's really behind this exercise.

    With all due respect, could you be working for someone who has assigned you this task? The questions you ask are those of the lobbyist, not hobbyist, nor the merely curious private owner, but those of someone who's been employed doing this as a research project with some clear use in mind.

    What is it you're trying to "find out" here, REALLY?


    3 members found this post helpful.

  13. #1953
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    For what it is worth, I believe that OGP is just another horse owner who is trying to make sense of a complicated issue. The use of somewhat academic language is an attempt to show objectivity on the issues.

    I am not sure if the language used has been used correctly, which accounts for some of the confusion. And I don't think that OGP is as objective as they would have us believe (rather than trail blazing together to reach a satisfactory conclusion, the route has been laid back from their already decided conclusion). I think that they have an argumentative end point in mind and when they reach that end point they can say how they used hard data to get there ("statistics" and "facts", never mind the personal assumptions used to mine the statistics for their desired facts).
    Sheilah


    4 members found this post helpful.

  14. #1954
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    I'm intrigued. You have expended a very substantial portion of time over the past week "trying to look at impact." You are making a valiant attempt to codify everything with numbers, statistics, and references. Putting a dollar amount on everything, and attempting to clarify figures from every part of the equine population seems to be one of your primary aims. No public-relations, emotional, or cultural component is admitted to the discussion, which is unusual enough, along with the academic tone of your questioning, to make me wonder what's really behind this exercise.

    With all due respect, could you be working for someone who has assigned you this task? The questions you ask are those of the lobbyist, not hobbyist, nor the merely curious private owner, but those of someone who's been employed doing this as a research project with some clear use in mind.

    What is it you're trying to "find out" here, REALLY?
    Now you have to watch it, or you will be called an employee of that mythical horse slaughter association, as I have been repeatedly..

    There have been others asking just as you have, JSwan one, that finally either were run off or decided it was not worth their time, as trying to debate with animal rights extremists is the snake that ate it's tail.
    As it is obvious, they keep bringing the same old stuff up again and again, right out of their propaganda, I call it the abuse and mismanagement card, which this is where this is going again in a bit more.



  15. #1955
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    With all due respect, could you be working for someone who has assigned you this task? The questions you ask are those of the lobbyist, not hobbyist, nor the merely curious private owner, but those of someone who's been employed doing this as a research project with some clear use in mind.
    Lol! Uhh...thank you?

    Nope. I'm a horse owner who runs a design firm. I used to work at a large university, which may have something to do with the "academic" language.

    My background is in organizational change management. I also have a small farmette that makes me no money but bleeds me completely dry. I've got three "rescue" horses and one "moderately show horse"

    I'm trying to make just as much sense of this as anyone is.

    What I am is a person who is not content to make a purely emotional argument *because* that often results in bad stuff happening. Yes, I came to a conclusion at one point back on page, I dunno, 34 - BUT unlike many people, I am open to believing that I may well be wrong.

    My continued interest in the topic is that I see holes, and big ones, from both sides. Since you folks have the emotional component pretty well covered, it makes sense to me to expand and understand the quantifiable pieces. If I have to keep explaining that, it's gonna be mighty painful.

    My passion for it is twofold, one - I want to see horses continue in our lives because I've been a horse nut since I was an infant, and two - when I am presented with a puzzle - a complicated one - I have to keep hammering on it until it makes sense. My particular brain does not like things that are not well thought through.

    In other words, we could be trying to solve the financial issues of a small country in east gibip and if it were a puzzle, I'd be trying to solve it.



  16. #1956
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    (Oh, and today was the first day of summer for the kids and I've been mostly on vacation for the last few weeks, if you're wondering where my time comes from).

    My apologies if the numbers have been discussed in any great detail, but from what I see, the AVMA, the USHJA, the AAEP...they all state that they are against slaughter but *also* do not believe that a ban can be put in place without adequately addressing the solutions. Jenm is getting some more data from UC Davis on their suggestions, which I think is great!

    Btw, I'm a total nerd, read nonfiction and program in my spare time. I'm not offended that you find me odd.



  17. #1957
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    Oh, and I'm a mom of 3 kids too. So if you want to say she, that'd be accurate.

    If you're interested in getting to know who I am personally, to satisfy your suspicion, if you PM me I will give you my name. Only fair if you give me your full name too - then we can connect on Facebook and you can "check me out" as much as you like. Heck, you can even call me on the phone. I've got nothing to hide!



  18. #1958
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    Ah...I thought so. If the AHC used the USDA census for their numbers....
    The exclusion of the non-farm horse population from the census data, which may be as many as several million head, clearly suggests the need to collect data on the entire equine population.
    Above quote is from the American Horse Council.

    http://www.horsecouncil.org/regulati...-equine-survey

    And again, before using the numbers from their 2005 survey, you will need to know how those numbers were obtained.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  19. #1959
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    Laura, if you've got better numbers I'd be all over them :-)



  20. #1960
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Laura, if you've got better numbers I'd be all over them :-)
    I'm afraid that no one will have good numbers. The only way to have good numbers is to require all horse owners to register and/or chip their horses. It does sound like the AHC may have a decent total number of horse estimate based on a few other articles I've read that compares their numbers to the AAEP estimates, but as far as categorizing those numbers...I suspect it's a stab in the dark and probably heavy on the industry impact. After all, that's their job, to protect the industry. Every estimate will have built in bias.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



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