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  1. #1661
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    I don't know crap about the race business but I do know the breed show business. In the not so distant past (which we are still seeing as these horse are still in the pipeline) the big breeders in the breed show world would over breed hoping for the "ONE". It was promoted with plenty of small operations following suit. Those industries promoted the Las Vegas in horse flesh and people bought into it. *raises hand* These are many of the horses that are struggling for a home.

    OTOH don't think for one minute these big breeders didn't have an outlet. The outlet was slaughter. Their culls, which were/are nicer than most. They just didn't have _____ to fit the narrow paradigm of their world.


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  2. #1662
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    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    Breeders breed according to what buyers buy. Or what they want to keep thamselves. Breedig without a market is about the fastest way to lose money short of being defrauded by a con artist.

    The market allows drug use and veterinary intervention to enable horses that would not be sound to be sound and compete. Winners in the pedigrees are what buyers require. So I will turn that on its' head and say buyers are 'the origin of the problem' in this country.

    I don't think it is rational to say your animals came with problems and that now that you are aware of them, you do not cull them and get a 'perfect' horse; yet the breeders should have culled them so you couldn't buy them?

    Most of the time the issues were clear before the purchase - no one held a gun to your head to buy the horse. Why aren't buyers held to a standard of rationally not buying when the horse 'should be culled'?
    Telling people they HAVE TO cull their horses because they aren't 'useful' or have to be medicated or on special feed or farriery, will not go over well at all with those who have retiirees or 'companions'.
    Exactly. And furthermore, the American breeding industry has not relied on slaughter to eliminate the "surplus" supply of horses in a great many years; I'd say, since before WWII. If that were the case, the numbers being sent would be far higher than the 1% to 2% most often cited.

    Welfare issues have far more to do with people's employment situation, disposable income, and mental health than with the overall market's supply and demand.

    There is no clearer way to put it; the one has nothing to do with the other.


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  3. #1663
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    OTOH don't think for one minute these big breeders didn't have an outlet. The outlet was slaughter.
    Yes, they did. Wonder how long it is going to take them to stop breeding them.

    Lady E. do you have any data to support that theory? How many large breeders are there now compared to back then? Per capita?

    Again - this 100k horses per year...where are they going to go? Heck, even the first year...



  4. #1664
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    ++

    Maybe Valley meats is not a good fit..but I do think you will see some plants open in Texas..close to their feedlots.
    Except for the pesky state law banning the sale of horsemeat in TX, that shut down Dallas Crowne and Beltex...


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #1665
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    No, I think they are still going to try to sell them. I *am* concerned about who will buy them.
    Well, Backstreet Bully would have gone back to his breeder that offers a home for any of his horses. The camp/trailriding horses would more than likely be pretty easy to sell/find homes for, given the chance.

    People can still sell them at auction. People may actually feel safer being able to rehome them/give them away, if there were no KBers to worry about. There are KBers that will respond to CL ads for Free to Good Home ads, and bring their kids/grandkids and say the horse is for little Suzy, when they then immediately sell it to slaughter. There are 2 that I know of locally.

    Also, I have friends that are horsey that refuse to go to the local auction because it is too upsetting for them to see the horses that the KBers are buying. If there was no danger of going to slaughter, they may actually increase the attendance at auctions.

    In addition, right now the floor is set by the horse's weight. If people actually had to train a horse, in order to make any money off of it, then there is the positive "reward/incentive" for them to do so.


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  6. #1666
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    Ok, that's about 300 maybe. You've got 90,700 left to rehome.

    I follow both Camelot and AC4H on Facebook because I'm always terrified that I'll see a horse that I know come through there. Based on the comments of the people bailing the horses out and offering them homes, I'd say about 5% of the people actually have a clue about horses and are competent enough to get one.

    Many of them are offering a home if the purchase price is raised. I've no idea how often this happens, but that means they weren't willing to pay the pittance to purchase the horse. Does that make them a qualified buyer?



  7. #1667
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Ok, that's about 300 maybe. You've got 90,700 left to rehome.

    I follow both Camelot and AC4H on Facebook because I'm always terrified that I'll see a horse that I know come through there. Based on the comments of the people bailing the horses out and offering them homes, I'd say about 5% of the people actually have a clue about horses and are competent enough to get one.

    Many of them are offering a home if the purchase price is raised. I've no idea how often this happens, but that means they weren't willing to pay the pittance to purchase the horse. Does that make them a qualified buyer?
    No...you have 90700 horses that HAVE owners. If the owner wants to sell them they will need to train, market them...just like the rest of us (99%ers) do, that don't sell to slaughter. Yes, it may take a little more effort for someone to get a horse sold, but no one ever promised them that they could get money in hand for no effort at all. Or they can have the unsalable ones euthed/donated to vet schools, big cat santuaries or colleges...just like the rest of us that don't send to slaughter.


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  8. #1668
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    Why do I feel like I'm going in circles.

    They have owners now, yes. Owners who don't want them any more. They will still go to auction, because those owners will be even more convinced that someone will "give them a good home".

    Who is going to do that?



  9. #1669
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    Are you thinking that the auctions will no longer exist because the KB's won't be there? Because as you've noted, that's not the majority of business at the auction.

    I'm actually wondering if more horses will go to auction if transport for slaughter is somehow banned. Because then, people's consciences will be totally "clean". A couple of bucks at an auction will be more enticing than having to pay for euth, rendering or training. What's to stop them?



  10. #1670
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    Sep. 11, 2008
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    I got into body work/accupressure because of issues I had with my own horses.
    Amazing stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    Big fan of that! My favorite Long time equine vet went into Accupuncture, Chiro And Accupressure for horses after years of straight work. He is Great and has done some wonderful help for horses I have worked with.


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  11. #1671
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Are you thinking that the auctions will no longer exist because the KB's won't be there? Because as you've noted, that's not the majority of business at the auction.

    I'm actually wondering if more horses will go to auction if transport for slaughter is somehow banned. Because then, people's consciences will be totally "clean". A couple of bucks at an auction will be more enticing than having to pay for euth, rendering or training. What's to stop them?
    There is nothing wrong with auctions in general. It's how horses slated as "kill horses" are treated at auctions that's the problem. Have you seen the video of the Los Lunas auction? Several horses that were supposed to go to slaughter were down and struggling for a couple of days, and no one did anything, because they were "going to be killed anyway". It took AA pleading with them, before an auction employee finally shot them.
    If there are no KBers at auctions, it would probably increase the people that attend auctions, because they don't have to see the horses being bought for kill, and knowing what awaits those horses.
    Prices at auction will be determined by conformation, training, etc, instead of weight. So people have a positive incentive to actually train their horses, make them look nice, etc.
    People that breed crap, will no longer be rewarded for it simply because of a horse's weight. So economics will force them to reduce breeding or breed more carefully, or actually train their horses.


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  12. #1672
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    If there are no KBers at auctions, it would probably increase the people that attend auctions, because they don't have to see the horses being bought for kill, and knowing what awaits those horses.
    I think you are tremendously optimistic. No, I haven't seen the Los Lunas video, because I focus on my state, which might as well be the opposite side of the planet. New Holland is in my state, as well as the auction where the guy just dumped the Belgian. Then there's the middleburg auction. I can tell you that the people who sell there don't care who buys them. A little money is better than none, and they aren't going to make any special effort to fix them up. Because many of them are trainers and professionals, and if they could have sold them for more they would have already.

    I think I'm out. Good luck to you. I sure hope, for all of our sakes, that you're right and I'm wrong. Seems funny to want to bet against your own knowledge and experience, but hey, what can I say.


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  13. #1673
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    Well here's another thought. Say the EU gets its act together and enforces the no drug issue. There are places in Mexico where they don't care about the drug issue. So could more horses be sent to worse places in Mexico?? Things might get worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Are you thinking that the auctions will no longer exist because the KB's won't be there? Because as you've noted, that's not the majority of business at the auction.

    I'm actually wondering if more horses will go to auction if transport for slaughter is somehow banned. Because then, people's consciences will be totally "clean". A couple of bucks at an auction will be more enticing than having to pay for euth, rendering or training. What's to stop them?


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  14. #1674
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    I follow Camelot as well. I quit with the AC4H because some of what I saw seemed really shady.
    Sometimes I am incredibly surprised to see what goes through there. I agree with you about some of them really not having a clue about horses.


    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Ok, that's about 300 maybe. You've got 90,700 left to rehome.

    I follow both Camelot and AC4H on Facebook because I'm always terrified that I'll see a horse that I know come through there. Based on the comments of the people bailing the horses out and offering them homes, I'd say about 5% of the people actually have a clue about horses and are competent enough to get one.

    Many of them are offering a home if the purchase price is raised. I've no idea how often this happens, but that means they weren't willing to pay the pittance to purchase the horse. Does that make them a qualified buyer?



  15. #1675
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    Well here's another thought. Say the EU gets its act together and enforces the no drug issue. There are places in Mexico where they don't care about the drug issue. So could more horses be sent to worse places in Mexico?? Things might get worse.
    The largest market in Mex is the export to the EU, of horses slaughtered at EU regulated SH;s. The only horses that are pithed are in the small SH that sell the meat to the Maquidoras (factories) which they feed the factory workers, often passing off as beef. And they have been slaughtering fewer horses than they used to because of the factories shutting down. We've always exported a few thousand horses a yr to them, even when the SH were open in TX. They only slaughter what they need to, in order to meet the demand by the factories/locally. (The huge increase you saw in exported horses to Mex when our SH shut down were sent to the EU regulated SH that kill exactly the same as we did and Canada does.) If the EU wants to enforce a no drugs rule/passport rule, it would probably reduce the number of US horses exported, even to the local SH that isn't a EU SH, because they would then have plenty of horses in their own country to slaughter, that are no longer EU qualified.


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  16. #1676
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    Except for the pesky state law banning the sale of horsemeat in TX, that shut down Dallas Crowne and Beltex...
    That is too bad..guess they will be shipped to Mexico permanently..

    The banning of horsemeat IN Texas or is that slaughtering them for export



  17. #1677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    That is too bad..guess they will be shipped to Mexico permanently..

    The banning of horsemeat IN Texas or is that slaughtering them for export
    You can't sell horsemeat in TX, which precludes slaughtering them, and exporting the meat, as they used to do when Deltex and Dallas Crowne were open. They were shut down due to a law from 1949, which was found to be valid, but the SH's kept appealing into the higher courts for yrs, until finally the highest court ruled that they couldn't slaughter and sell the meat. There is nothing preventing exporting live horses, although the bill that is currently up for vote would ban the transport to slaughter, which would mean that they couldn't export to slaughter either.
    It may be a moot point if the EU decides to not accept horses without passports, so we'll have to see what happens there.


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  18. #1678
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Why do I feel like I'm going in circles.

    They have owners now, yes. Owners who don't want them any more. They will still go to auction, because those owners will be even more convinced that someone will "give them a good home".

    Who is going to do that?
    Because that is what these threads do.. You are sucked into the Vortex,
    The Slaughter Zone!
    Last edited by Sannois; Jun. 11, 2013 at 08:59 AM.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  19. #1679
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    Sannois, I think what drives me nuts about it is that the conversation seems to go like this:

    "You're a doo doo head"

    "No you are"

    "You eat babies for lunch"

    "You're not smart"

    "Guys knock it off"

    <some good dialogue, starting to have interesting ideas and facts>

    And then it goes in one of two very predictable ways, either:

    "The industry will never change, stop trying"

    Or

    "Yay, well you don't have to worry about it any more because it's all going to stop and everything is going to be just fine"

    <a few people express that they aren't sure that they believe either of those things>

    And then the cycle repeats. 84 pages worth.

    It is a vortex and what I don't understand completely is why people wouldn't want to solve any problems with the potential for collateral damage?

    They are so secure in their belief that everything will be just fine that they are willing to badger people into not talking about solutions - solutions that don't even involve slaughter.

    I find this attitude amazing. To be so confident that nothing bad will happen from an action even though we *know* that every time we change a system there are consequences, both positive and negative. This is the same kind of thinking that caused Prohibition in this country. People believed that by removing alcohol from the shelves that people would just "shape up and become responsible".

    We *know* that's not the case, not how it works. Didn't work for alcohol, doesn't work for drugs, and I'm pretty sure it won't work for horses either.

    IMPORTANT NOTE - I am NOT saying that nothing should change as it currently exists nor even that slaughter is the only option. The culling option was the only conclusion I could find but since people don't even understand what I'm saying it feels fairly useless to talk about it.

    Honestly? I'm disappointed. I don't have the desire to continue to go in circles. Not one bit. If the conversation cannot be productive then it is hopeless, but not because of pro-slaughter proponents.
    Last edited by OneGrayPony; Jun. 11, 2013 at 08:03 AM. Reason: Adding something.



  20. #1680
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Ok, that's about 300 maybe. You've got 90,700 left to rehome.

    I follow both Camelot and AC4H on Facebook because I'm always terrified that I'll see a horse that I know come through there. Based on the comments of the people bailing the horses out and offering them homes, I'd say about 5% of the people actually have a clue about horses and are competent enough to get one.
    Those horses weren't going to slaughter anyway. Come on you know that. It was a marketing ploy all along. When you take the "bail" and emotion out it, those who wanted to "save" a horse will stop buying.

    The market will absorb them, one way or another or they will be put down.

    It's been pointed out, several times, that demand drives the number of slaughtered horses, not the availability of horses for slaughter.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant

    Member of Kathy S. has me on ignore club.



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