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  1. #1561
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    It might have been something like a bell gun??? Not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Can you elaborate on the difference between the bolt pistol used by James Herriott era Vets and the 'stunn things in the Slaughter houses'?



  2. #1562
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Yep, I agree JGHIRETIRE. I'm not thrilled about the rendered animals going into pet food either particularly if they have drugs in them.

    Which keeps me coming back to the drugs being an issue, no matter how I slice it.



    Bluey, I'm sorry if I have unfairly painted you as a slaughter proponent. I was assuming that everyone was being truthful about what you were saying. This is the first time I have heard otherwise and that may be because my reading comprehension isn't what it used to be.
    Naw, the animal rights extremists here have been trying to run me off,as they have some others, some PMs have indicated that to me, as per what some of those posters write in other web sites, for years now.
    Some have warned me when those launch a coordinated attack on me.
    That is why all the picking, because they want the floor to themselves and no inconvenient truths brought up, or just are mean people after having their fun off picking on others.

    Since I am not part of any group, that makes anyone an easy target.

    You can find posts back to when I started posting and, well, I have been called all kinds of things.
    I think that reflects on those posters that do that more than in what they are trying to accuse me of and most can see right thru them, as per what I am told.

    I have said from day one, slaughter is a process we use and as such, not inherently any more or less good or bad than any other process.
    Where someone finds fault with slaughter, that is addressed by the regulations and inspections we have, as any other process out there.
    If those don't suit you, work to see they do.

    This drive to ban slaughter has nothing to do with slaughter and how it is conducted, but is a first step in the rung animal rights extremists are using to eventually eliminate all uses of animals.

    On that ground, I think we should on principle try to keep those groups from getting, now slaughter, later other targets, banned.

    There are many terrible schools out there.
    No one is pointing to the bad ones and insisting all schools have to be banned.
    There are many bad drivers, drunk drivers out there, but no one is calling for banning driving.



  3. #1563
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    Drogheda Irish Ponies have a solution that has been extremely successful for them. They LEASE their hunter jumper ponies....starting at 12 hh and up to full size. They are leased from Canada to Palm Berach Fl. Phoenix, Indio, NYState to name a few.

    As the child grows out of the pony..they trade it bck in on another and as they grow in skill, they trade continue to trade up.

    It is hard to get started and it takes contacts, drive, ambition AND MONEY..but he has been doing it for over 15 years now and is very successful.

    It was also good for the horses during the recession. Those who couldn't keep the horse turned it back in. EVERYTHING is prepaid include the transportation back to an agreed upon destination.

    He has used Welsh, Connemara, American Saddlebred, Arabian, Thoroughbred, (a stallion stake winner from Brazil), and some other breeds

    Just a thought as to "thinking outside the box"
    Fairfax, that's an interesting proposition. How does he make sure they are well treated when he leases them out?


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  4. #1564
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    On that ground, I think we should on principle try to keep those groups from getting, now slaughter, later other targets, banned.
    I see what you are saying. I think what others are saying is that the current laws don't seem to be helping much and the governing bodies aren't working.

    Most of the other drives to ban things don't work either. We make laws against drunk driving and it still happens too :-(

    So - back to the topic of incentivizing good behavior. How do we do it?



  5. #1565
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    Another way to phrase my question is - how do we make it so that we don't need a ban?



  6. #1566
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    Quote Originally Posted by quietann View Post
    oops, OK, on reconsideration here is roughly what I said!

    Horses have a limited window of time where they can be resold, and it seems to be getting shorter. Anything over 11 or 12 is "too old." Anything below 6 or so is "too young/too green." (though obviously this varies by discipline.)

    And it's no help if a horse is in the right age range but "behind" in its training. My (ex-) trainer sneered at two nice sales horses I knew of, ages 6 and 7, because while they'd been started at 3 or 4, they'd been standing in a field until a few months before, when they went into dressage training. "6 and 7 and only doing Training Level? They're so far behind!" They have both earned very respectable scores (the younger one especially) at that level after 5 months of training, and should be moving to First Level sometime this summer, but they are, in her opinion "too old." Now these are not upper-level prospects, but solid, sound, ammy-friendly horses. (ETA: registered Morgans, sport-bred
    That is not quite so in the western world.
    Horses in different disciplines are priced by how talented they are and how much and good training they have to showcase that talent.

    Very young horses are very valuable because the good ones can earn what they cost double or more times if they show well enough.
    Once they are past the Futurity and such early big money classes, there is still plenty of money at the older levels and the better a horse, the more considerable that amount of money may be.
    Plus the fun those owners have with such horses, if their trainer is showing it or they are or both.
    Still, there is great demand for the lower levels for those older horses that have the talent to be competitive at some level and are experienced enough for the lower level riders to enjoy showing.
    One very nice 19 year old just sold for $10,000 and that is not an exception.
    Some of the NRA top finals ropers in Las Vegas were 17 to 22 years old and still at the top of their game.

    As far as soundness, horses are like humans, some are more sound than others.



  7. #1567
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    http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/camp...orse/all/1350/

    This is an interesting article from the UK about racing over there and it's challenges. They don't allow them to run on Bute over there.



  8. #1568
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    Bluey which western disciplines are you speaking of?



  9. #1569
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    Quote Originally Posted by quietann View Post
    oops, OK, on reconsideration here is roughly what I said!

    Horses have a limited window of time where they can be resold, and it seems to be getting shorter. Anything over 11 or 12 is "too old." Anything below 6 or so is "too young/too green." (though obviously this varies by discipline.)

    And it's no help if a horse is in the right age range but "behind" in its training. My (ex-) trainer sneered at two nice sales horses I knew of, ages 6 and 7, because while they'd been started at 3 or 4, they'd been standing in a field until a few months before, when they went into dressage training. "6 and 7 and only doing Training Level? They're so far behind!" They have both earned very respectable scores (the younger one especially) at that level after 5 months of training, and should be moving to First Level sometime this summer, but they are, in her opinion "too old." Now these are not upper-level prospects, but solid, sound, ammy-friendly horses. (ETA: registered Morgans, sport-bred
    Interesting, so it is not just the hunters.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  10. #1570
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    It might have been something like a bell gun??? Not sure.
    I posted links to them a page back after Angela asked me.
    I can re link it if you like.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  11. #1571
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    It might have been something like a bell gun??? Not sure.
    It was my understanding that it in fact wasn't much different, other than the pneumatic action that makes it less fatiguing for the operator to fire over and over and over...

    I will be interested to look at what Sannois found.
    It is so great to have other participants posting who are offering research and links to the information for everyone to read.
    Thanks Sannois
    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/


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  12. #1572
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    That seems like a logical supposition to me.
    There are arguments out there to suggest that a horse has way more blood than a cow/pig/or sheep.
    Other violations may be the use of the "lagoon" used to hold wastewater.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    Well even though I have been accused of flip flopping, I am neither for or against, NEutral and still wanting it better, BUT
    I would think that the environmental issues with the large slaughter houses is much worse than small or locally shot and composted animals.
    Wouldn't it? I mean wern't there all sorts of reports about slaughter houses violating Ground and water etc?



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  13. #1573
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    Actually the James Herriot books were based on what an actual vet did - he just changed his name.
    I keep thinking of that humane killer as well. I agree - why can't that be used??
    I think it can and still is in the UK, I am sure it is a safe acceptable method of Euthanasia , But I bet you would be hard pressed to find any Vets who use that method here in the states. I could be wrong. I just have not known any around here. It is always the Juice.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  14. #1574
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    I think the issue of drugs in horse racing turns alot of people off. It's always the question of "is it a fair race or a fixed one"??

    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    I disagree, Bluey. This was a major point of contention and I've heard many times that people wouldn't support or watch racing because of the cruelty. Of course, I also heard that they didn't believe in fox hunting, but that was they thought I was planning on going out with a rifle and killing a fox for it's pelt. I was so shocked I nearly fell over.


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  15. #1575
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    It was my understanding that it in fact wasn't much different, other than the pneumatic action that makes it less fatiguing for the operator to fire over and over and over...

    I will be interested to look at what Sannois found.
    It is so great to have other participants posting who are offering research and links to the information for everyone to read.
    Thanks Sannois
    Your Welcome Angela, I did not have a lot of time to research further but I plan to tonight or tomorrow morning.
    The link I posted is old, The items are accurate, it does show Cattle bell guns that use a type of Bullet, that are no longer used.
    Then I looked up Captive Bolt guns, as opposed to Pneumatic stunners and there are all kinds, but the effectiveness of the bolt is far superior, it drives a bolt quick through the skull into the brain, Not just stunning them where they can awaken.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  16. #1576
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Bluey which western disciplines are you speaking of?
    Cutting, reining, team roping, barrel racing and lately team penning/sorting and ranch rodeos, all that is really taking off and in lesser numbers, cowboy mounted shooting.

    That takes many horses.

    Those running the different associations in those western activities tell me their competitions tend to be full.

    It is not unheard of for barrel racers or ropers to have 5-600 entries and have to compete thru several days.
    They have competitions all the time, in many different places, to chose from.



  17. #1577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    Your Welcome Angela, I did not have a lot of time to research further but I plan to tonight or tomorrow morning.
    The link I posted is old, The items are accurate, it does show Cattle bell guns that use a type of Bullet, that are no longer used.
    Then I looked up Captive Bolt guns, as opposed to Pneumatic stunners and there are all kinds, but the effectiveness of the bolt is far superior, it drives a bolt quick through the skull into the brain, Not just stunning them where they can awaken.
    Sannois I just looked at your links and the first one is actually very good... and there are several links available there, incl a link to how to dress a cow after you bolt and then bleed them out.

    You need to use the stunner vs the bolt that kills them in the slaughter plants because their heart needs to be beating to pump out the blood.

    And someone [up thread] mentioned the amount of blood, I've found data that horses have about 50% more blood than cows.
    Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

    http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/



  18. #1578
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    I see what you are saying. I think what others are saying is that the current laws don't seem to be helping much and the governing bodies aren't working.

    Most of the other drives to ban things don't work either. We make laws against drunk driving and it still happens too :-(

    So - back to the topic of incentivizing good behavior. How do we do it?
    These debates for some are not about finding any solutions, but the mere act of divide and conquer.



  19. #1579
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Much of the European market is covered with their own horses. Belgium breeds for meat and many of the other countries cull for meat. That is their current system.
    . . . and that's exactly where those 100,000 horses a year are going to come from. They will be purpose-bred or have the appropriate passport for the human food chain and will be raised either overseas or in Canada in all likelihood.

    BTW, if the economy of Western Canada is taking off the way Fairfax says, what man with a family to feed is going to seek work in a SH when he could be making far more in the oil and gas fields? Why raise horses for Premarin or knocking when you could be fracking for shale-oil? The times they are a-changin' folks!
    What someone stated up-thread about Bouvry having to "import" help from the shuttered Cavel kind of said it all, didn't it? NO ONE is going to do that if they have any other prospects.


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  20. #1580
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    I have never heard of a vet here in the US that uses that either. They usually don't even ask if you prefer something other than the pink juice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    I think it can and still is in the UK, I am sure it is a safe acceptable method of Euthanasia , But I bet you would be hard pressed to find any Vets who use that method here in the states. I could be wrong. I just have not known any around here. It is always the Juice.


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