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  1. #101
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    Aug. 26, 1999
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    Concord, California, USA
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    Kande -I know you from the UDBB board. Enough said. (perhaps someone cached UDBB threads involving this poster. I would be interesting to see them up here- or maybe not!)


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #102
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    Sep. 15, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    That's fine. But what's the maximum one can get from clicker training?....
    That we don't know yet, simply because clicker training, just like pressure and release training, is still evolving.

    Do you still ride them, knowing that you are treating them badly?
    If I thought I was treating my horses badly by riding them I'd stop riding them. But as I mentioned before, I have no problem with horses having jobs, but I do have problems with jobs that I think are too punishing.

    So I don't care if a horse is born never wanting to do one tempis under saddle. If I can teach him to find joy and self-esteem in the training process, that's morally good enough for me.
    If I believed that horses found joy and esteem in the training process then I'd agree with you, but since I don't, I don't. I think what may be interpreted as joy and esteem may simply be acceptance.



  3. #103
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    Sep. 15, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Pony View Post
    Please post video of your clicker trained horse saddling itself, this I gotta see!
    My answer was in response to the words I quoted.



  4. #104
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    Jun. 7, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by kande04 View Post
    but I do have problems with jobs that I think are too punishing.
    i.e., ambling about the arena at a walk.



  5. #105
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    Aug. 26, 1999
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    Concord, California, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    i.e., ambling about the arena at a walk.
    Ah,meupatdoes, I suspect you have participated in/observed the UDBB threads involving kande.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #106
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by kande04 View Post
    If I believed that horses found joy and esteem in the training process then I'd agree with you, but since I don't, I don't. I think what may be interpreted as joy and esteem may simply be acceptance.
    How do you know horses don't find joy and self-esteem but do find mere acceptance in their work?

    If you think about this point, you'll see that the claim behind it is indefensible. Either you can accurately infer states of mind from horses' behavior or you cannot. But you can't legitimately infer only good ones or only bad ones. And there are behaviors horses do at liberty that we believe expresses joy and self-esteem that they sometimes do under saddle. So you can't have it both ways: The same behavior meaning different things in different circumstances.

    But hey, if you decided a priori that horses can't like jobs you deemed too punishing, the whole argument you have going on will continue to work.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  7. #107
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    Jun. 7, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy M View Post
    Ah,meupatdoes, I suspect you have participated in/observed the UDBB threads involving kande.

    No over in the "naughty behavior" thread she told me this video was me putting an iron bar in a horse's mouth and using it "less than gently" in a manner that was potentially "traumatic" to the horse, and helpfully informed me that there are "a lot of people" who "would consider that horse abuse."


    ...whoops?



  8. #108
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    Oct. 27, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy M View Post
    Ah,meupatdoes, I suspect you have participated in/observed the UDBB threads involving kande.
    I certainly have... And having seen her videos I find it highly amusing that she is can point a finger at anyone else (and Andreas Helgstrand of all people) and accuse them of causing their horses discomfort. My only response is:


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #109
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    Aug. 26, 1999
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    Concord, California, USA
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    meupadoes - wanted to send you a PM but your box is full.



  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy M View Post
    meupadoes - wanted to send you a PM but your box is full.
    Email works!



  11. #111
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    Sep. 15, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    How do you know horses don't find joy and self-esteem but do find mere acceptance in their work?
    I don't, which is why I doubt if I made any such claim. All I do is look at the evidence and attempt to interpret it without self serving bias, and that's what I've come up with as of right now. IOW, no wild claims at all, just opinion based upon observation.

    And there are behaviors horses do at liberty that we believe expresses joy and self-esteem that they sometimes do under saddle. So you can't have it both ways: The same behavior meaning different things in different circumstances.
    The fact that there need to be consequences (aversives and rewards) to get horses to perform the behaviors we want is what makes me think that they're not self rewarding.

    But hey, if you decided a priori that horses can't like jobs you deemed too punishing, the whole argument you have going on will continue to work.
    True. :-)



  12. #112
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    Sep. 13, 2002
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    Pacific Northwest
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    Soon as I saw the title, I knew it had to be Porter! I think he's awesome and his rider/trainer as well, and I am annoyed to see how this thread has devolved into ... Not sure what to call it ... The usual bickering that is COTH these days.

    Porter did scare my silly warmblood half to death at a show. Everything was fine until he called and my little horse thought demons were after him. He got over his fear when he came home to live with my mini mule and found out her braying meant the food delivery service has arrived!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #113
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    Mar. 16, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by kande04 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mvp
    How do you know horses don't find joy and self-esteem but do find mere acceptance in their work?
    I don't, which is why I doubt if I made any such claim. All I do is look at the evidence and attempt to interpret it without self serving bias, and that's what I've come up with as of right now. IOW, no wild claims at all, just opinion based upon observation.
    Quote Originally Posted by kande04 View Post
    If I believed that horses found joy and esteem in the training process then I'd agree with you, but since I don't, I don't. I think what may be interpreted as joy and esteem may simply be acceptance.
    Looks like you made that claim.


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  14. #114
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnm161 View Post
    Looks like you made that claim.
    Sigh. Kande, you did make the claim. Actually, there are two, one enfolded in the other.

    First, you claimed that training couldn't produce joy and self-esteem in a horse. But you did think it could only produce acceptance.

    Second, and the implied claim wrapped in the first, is that someone actually can infer either of those states--- the good one for the horse or the "mere acceptance"-- at all.

    When I asked the basis on which you might make that second, more basic and important claim, you said

    1. Observation
    2. Disinterested observation. (Here, you implied that anyone who similarly believed they are seeing happiness on the horse's part during training had their view clouded by self-interest; you, by contrast, do not).

    So you still have the logical problem I pointed out: On what basis can anyone authoritatively claim to have read a horse's mind accurately?

    You don't actually have an answer (and can't because no one can). In fact, I don't even see why you bother to try to make that empirical claim-- that a horse's mind can be read but that some people are just too selfish to do it right.

    That's because you accept the prior proposal I had: That one's held view about training being inhertently good or bad for the horse will determine his interpretation of the horse's behavior.

    You can't have it both ways: Insisting that you alone can accurate judge a horse's opinion and also that anyone's opinions about training will influence that judgment.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  15. #115
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    Mar. 16, 2006
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    Larkspur, Colo.
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    I love the mule. I love big ears. Go mules.

    You know, I had to beat my horse with a poop fork the other day. He liked it. He even thanked me for it. He would beat himself with a poop fork if he could.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  16. #116
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    Jan. 25, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarkspurCO View Post

    You know, I had to beat my horse with a poop fork the other day. He liked it. He even thanked me for it. He would beat himself with a poop fork if he could.
    My horse thinks the poop fork is the best horse grooming tool ever invented.

    I have been considering training a mule for dressage, and this video gives me the permission I seek.


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  17. #117
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    Mar. 25, 2011
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    Pennsylvania
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    No over in the "naughty behavior" thread she told me this video was me putting an iron bar in a horse's mouth and using it "less than gently" in a manner that was potentially "traumatic" to the horse, and helpfully informed me that there are "a lot of people" who "would consider that horse abuse."


    ...whoops?

    I remember that video and being inspired by how you just sat chilly while she sorted herself out. Thanks for re-posting it -I've put it in my favorites so I won't lose it again.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).


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  18. #118
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    Oct. 20, 2007
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    Wonderland
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarkspurCO View Post
    You know, I had to beat my horse with a poop fork the other day. He liked it. He even thanked me for it. He would beat himself with a poop fork if he could.
    Yup, the flat side of a poop fork is excellent for beatings and the tines can be an excellent back scratcher.


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  19. #119
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    Aug. 15, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Lu View Post
    Wow. A buckskin mule. I'd looooove to see that.
    I know the buckskin mule and his owner - he also JUMPS! How fun is that?



  20. #120
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    Jul. 3, 2012
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    Twin Cities
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    Yup, the flat side of a poop fork is excellent for beatings and the tines can be an excellent back scratcher.
    and all this time I have been beating my horses with clubs. Damn.



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