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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post

    You just don't let the 'one generation and out' Vegan crowd legislate animal husbandry! You might as well train a fox to herd your chickens
    That's total bull and you know it. It was only said in reference to a discussion about a heirloom cattle breed and it's been taken out of context. I don't have time to find the full quote, but I've posted it before.

    Here’s what happened with this supposed iteration. Several years before I joined the staff of The HSUS, in 1992 or 1993, I appeared at an agricultural forum to address the issue of animal welfare in American agriculture. In the question and answer session, an attendee asked whether there should be an attempt to preserve all breeds of exotic livestock. I was specifically queried about so-called “heirloom breeds” (older breed variations that are often not used any longer for a commercial purpose and whose continued survival as a breed may be in jeopardy) and their value to agriculture.

    At the time, I did not consider the fate of such breeds an ethically significant dilemma (my views have become more nuanced on that topic through the years). At the time, I replied by saying that I did not believe we had a moral obligation to the animals to preserve such breeds; in short, I said we did not need an endangered species act for rare livestock breeds.

    A representative of an extreme and now defunct organization called Putting People First, present at this forum, took this passing comment about rare breeds of livestock and morphed it into a comment about all domesticated animals—devoid of its essential and undeniably clear context.
    http://hsus.typepad.com/wayne/2007/0...ate-disto.html

    Why is it necessary to take comments out of context and purposely twist them?

    In any case, Baltimore City has a 3 dog limit as well...if you have more, you need a kennel license. I don't see what the big deal is.

    Alagirl, you don't have a horse, don't ride, do you even have an animal as a pet? Why do you have to jump on any thread where you could possibly bash HSUS (even when it really has nothing to do with the topic)?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I don't agree with you on this one. By the time the rescue pays for vaccination, spay/neuter, etc., they have about $200+ into a dog. It's only reasonable to expect an adopter of a pure bred dog to pay $200 and up for a dog.

    Mixes...that's a whole different story.
    I disagree. I can use my own experience in RR rescue. We're not charging each person per the expenses of that dog. If that were the case then I should get an already speutered, vetted adult for the cost of the dog food the foster used on it. Nope, it's still $250. Why? Because we're trying to cover the costs of other dogs that need more care, vetting etc. I completely understand the model, I just think it's turning away potential owners because they don't see the need to pay $250 or $300 or $400 for a dog.

    Like I said, I don't know what the solution is.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    That's total bull and you know it. It was only said in reference to a discussion about a heirloom cattle breed and it's been taken out of context. I don't have time to find the full quote, but I've posted it before.



    http://hsus.typepad.com/wayne/2007/0...ate-disto.html

    Why is it necessary to take comments out of context and purposely twist them?

    In any case, Baltimore City has a 3 dog limit as well...if you have more, you need a kennel license. I don't see what the big deal is.

    Alagirl, you don't have a horse, don't ride, do you even have an animal as a pet? Why do you have to jump on any thread where you could possibly bash HSUS (even when it really has nothing to do with the topic)?
    already out of arguments?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  4. #44
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    We need to convey that these puppies are less healthy, more likely to have behavior problems, and less likely to have the looks, health, and temperament they are seeking.
    If that's true.

    I (and most reasonable, thinking, potential pet owners) will respond to a rational position that is well-proven. OTOH, the most expensive vet bills I've ever heard of were ALL paid by the proud owners of health-certified purebreds from reputable show lines who developed the exact conditions that the breeds are notorious for (joint-related.) Apparently those joints can go for reasons that AREN'T acronym-specific. Meanwhile, the animal shelter-obtained mutts that I know turned out to be much more maintenance free dogs, generally. I'd say, percentage-wise...it's maybe a wash, purebred to non-purebred, with regards to issues. Prove to me it isn't, and I can get behind that. If you need to call me an idiot as part of your explanation though...that's a hint that you might need to work on the evidence a bit more. I'm really, really, not an idiot.

    Unfortunately, what tends to be the case when people like me ask the question "well, what should I be looking for in a dog of XXX breed" I get some show breeder who rambles on about acronyms and health conditions I've never heard about, EVER, and shows me dogs who are champions at...standing around in a ring.

    Feel free to rabidly interject and tell me exactly why I'm an ignoramus, and why the health certifications are valuable, and how I'm stupid, and why the show ring is critical to breed integrity...

    But I'll stop listening, find some farm breeder who doesn't go nuts on me, whose dogs (mutt, purebred, or otherwise) are happy, healthy and exhibit the characteristics I actually want in a dog. Since I'm clever, I'll be wanting a puppy from a breeder who has OLD dogs. And maybe a few litters on the ground, so that I can determine what ACTUAL health concerns the family exihibits.

    Honestly, show me the proof rationally and without being a condescending prick, and maybe I'll be encouraged to go to a registered purebred type breeder again...otherwise, I'll go to the place that offers happy, healthy, fun dogs, and meets my own personal "reasonableness" criterion. I'm really not an idiot. I don't need a dog breeder to lecture me on genetics and insist that I'm an idiot for pointing out that just because a dog isn't ADVERTISED as "health checked acronym-free" doesn't mean it isn't verifiable.
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior


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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    I disagree. I can use my own experience in RR rescue. We're not charging each person per the expenses of that dog. If that were the case then I should get an already speutered, vetted adult for the cost of the dog food the foster used on it. Nope, it's still $250. Why? Because we're trying to cover the costs of other dogs that need more care, vetting etc. I completely understand the model, I just think it's turning away potential owners because they don't see the need to pay $250 or $300 or $400 for a dog.

    Like I said, I don't know what the solution is.

    Paula
    The collie rescue I volunteered with had a sliding scale, depending on age. They ranged from $0 to $375, depending on the age and the health of the dog. We had no shortage of adopters.

    Other collie rescues have adoption fees in the same range. I'm sorry, if you can't afford $250 for a vetted dog, maybe you can't afford a dog at all. We're talking purebreds only here.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  6. #46
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    Just to interject again, I believe that your average, reasonable potential pet owner is willing to pay for an animal.

    From my personal experience (again, I get it, some people would rather talk about imaginary groups of people who may or may not exist, versus listening to actual pet owners who have contradictory feelding) the cost is really not the issue at all. I agree LauraKY, if a person can't afford a few hundred dollars for a life-long pet, they aren't great owner prospects. The world doesn't owe you a free dog, and I guess you can always make to odd exception for homeless people that you really think will be a good home.

    Generally though? If a person wants a dog, they will go pay...the dog industry needs to start looking at where the money is actually being spent, where the shelter dogs are coming from...not making assumptions about everything. I was perfectly willing to pay $2500 for a purebred dog of the breed I ended up getting...it was honest-to-god all the nonsense in the contract and dealing with the self-righteous show breeders that turned me off. I had COME TO THEM as a potential client, and within minutes I was hearing about how pet stores are the devil and people selling dogs on Craigslist were vermin. We consulted some breed rescues too, perfectly happy to buy an older dog. That was even worse...there was no way we were going to be considered good enough to adopt from any of those. We don't let the dogs in the house. Since they are LGDs. That was too appalling to even consider, per the breed rescue folks.

    It was just a lot nicer experience to buy from a reasonable, down to earth person. They didn't even advertise. People love their dogs so much that when the litter was discovered, the puppies all sold before they were weaned. To nice people. They were vaccinated and checked by an actual veterinarian. The two we bought are enrolled in a puppy kindergarten thing right now.
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior



  7. #47
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    Maybe the sliding scale is a solution. I have been in this racket long enough to know that there is no connection between money and care. Just because you can afford to write a check for $250 is absolutely no guarantee that you will treat this animal well. And just because you cannot just write a check for $250 doesn't mean you can't afford a dog. Goodness knows we see this in the horse world. I do not hold that prejudice about people. And I don't care if it's a purebred because I'm not interested in capitalizing on brand name. Regardless of breeding the dog will need care, love, vetting, feeding, and training.

    Where I can see the cost being justified is if we're placing a well-trained dog, like an assistance dog washout who has had tons of training and time in its background.


    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugbygirl View Post
    Honestly, show me the proof rationally and without being a condescending prick, and maybe I'll be encouraged to go to a registered purebred type breeder again...otherwise, I'll go to the place that offers happy, healthy, fun dogs, and meets my own personal "reasonableness" criterion.
    The hard part is that no one really can prove that to you. The funding simply does not exist for much of the research that either side demands in these arguments.

    No one can force you to believe in supporting ethical show breeders.

    I am lucky enough to have a truly perfect example of what it should be like buy a well-bred dog.

    I bought Dexter as a pet from an ethical breeder recommended to me by the breeder of my last schnauzer (another ethical breeder and vet). What you might consider "grilling" I saw as compassion. These puppies meant the world to her and she wanted the Best life possible for them, not just an adequate one.

    Since the moment I took my boy home she has never hesitated to answer a question or provide support. Despite being sold as a "pet" Dexter finished his conformation champion title owner-handled, got 15 points towards his grand in one weekend, is the #1 OH MS, has his CGC, two legs of his CA, is trustworthy around babies and cats, and is one well rounded 18 month old boy. He has done a whole lot more than standing around and looking pretty even though that is what his bloodline suggests. Furthermore, he has numerous relatives on both sides that were sold to pet homes and went on to complete agility, rally, and obedience titles. Including a close relative going for MACH 10 at age 11.

    Yes I paid a whole lot more for him than $250 but I got a whole lot more than a puppy. I gained a relationship with someone who has 25+ years of experience in the breed, connections to the top medical professionals in my area, an invaluable training resource, and a friend who never tires of getting cell phone pics of his morning face.

    How many "farm" or "oops litters" sellers can tell you about the health, disposition, performance potential, and longevity of every dog in their 5 generation pedigree? I know that mine sure can.

    I think it is a mistake to discount a show breeder because you do not understand the reasoning behind their requirements for their puppies or you assume that they only breed for beauty. Good breeders care about the BREED and that goes far beyond the show ring.


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  9. #49
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    The grilling is also a result of the backlash from purebreds in the pounds. the ethical breeders do not want to take that trip to the shelter to bail out one of their pups (no doubt getting the hairy eyeball by now) or having their carefully thought out bloodlines disappear in - drum roll please - puppy mills or back yard 'programs' and being bred til the equipment falls off!

    Of course, you can also run into the condescending nutter...like anywhere in the world you deal with people!.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  10. #50
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    I think it is a mistake to discount a show breeder because you do not understand the reasoning behind their requirements for their puppies or you assume that they only breed for beauty
    I agree, that would be a mistake. I think it is equally a mistake to assume that the breeders of unregistered dogs don't care about where they end up, or are negligent in breeding quality animals.


    The reality is, there are some purebred/show breeders who have operations that look/feel a whole lot like puppy mills and who 10 pounds of crazy in a 5 pound bag, and there are unregistered breeders who care so much for breed integrity that they've struck off on their own against the direction of the show ring and now breed family pets.

    Registration doesn't decide the quality of a breeding operation, neither does the price of the offspring. CARING about animals really isn't what's missing from this entire situation...what's missing is reason, followed by economics.

    Are rescues an easy out? The well-publicized ones, yes. They consistently alienate adopters and many of them add to the perception of "whackadoo" that average pet owners are uninterested in dealing with. They take on more dogs than they can handle and beg for donations. They lack reason and common senes.

    Rescues like my friend, who quietly takes on "vicious" German Shepherds that he acquires through word of mouth and rehabilitates...he's no easy out. He doesn't do "volume" and generally he is PAID to take an animal. He's experienced and very often successful, and when he isn't...he puts the animal down. Those kind of rescues, that take dogs who are TRULY in need of rescue...no, they aren't easy outs. These dogs usually come to him from the reputable breeders, they've taken a sold puppy back when the owners have problems...they know full well that a human likely created the issue, and that this human might be able to solve it and give the dog a chance. THAT'S a rescue. He gives the dogs away, returns them to the breeder or sometimes sells them for a nominal fee. He's not a charity or a kennel. He takes on only what he can handle and afford. He has years and years of experience with these dogs and a deep love for the breed.

    The big problem is that the good, down-to-earth people are NOT the ones who are at the forefront of debates like this. They get lost in the hyperbole and emotional arguments.
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugbygirl View Post
    If that's true.

    I (and most reasonable, thinking, potential pet owners) will respond to a rational position that is well-proven. OTOH, the most expensive vet bills I've ever heard of were ALL paid by the proud owners of health-certified purebreds from reputable show lines who developed the exact conditions that the breeds are notorious for (joint-related.) Apparently those joints can go for reasons that AREN'T acronym-specific. Meanwhile, the animal shelter-obtained mutts that I know turned out to be much more maintenance free dogs, generally. I'd say, percentage-wise...it's maybe a wash, purebred to non-purebred, with regards to issues. Prove to me it isn't, and I can get behind that. If you need to call me an idiot as part of your explanation though...that's a hint that you might need to work on the evidence a bit more. I'm really, really, not an idiot.

    Unfortunately, what tends to be the case when people like me ask the question "well, what should I be looking for in a dog of XXX breed" I get some show breeder who rambles on about acronyms and health conditions I've never heard about, EVER, and shows me dogs who are champions at...standing around in a ring.

    Feel free to rabidly interject and tell me exactly why I'm an ignoramus, and why the health certifications are valuable, and how I'm stupid, and why the show ring is critical to breed integrity...

    But I'll stop listening, find some farm breeder who doesn't go nuts on me, whose dogs (mutt, purebred, or otherwise) are happy, healthy and exhibit the characteristics I actually want in a dog. Since I'm clever, I'll be wanting a puppy from a breeder who has OLD dogs. And maybe a few litters on the ground, so that I can determine what ACTUAL health concerns the family exihibits.

    Honestly, show me the proof rationally and without being a condescending prick, and maybe I'll be encouraged to go to a registered purebred type breeder again...otherwise, I'll go to the place that offers happy, healthy, fun dogs, and meets my own personal "reasonableness" criterion. I'm really not an idiot. I don't need a dog breeder to lecture me on genetics and insist that I'm an idiot for pointing out that just because a dog isn't ADVERTISED as "health checked acronym-free" doesn't mean it isn't verifiable.
    What breed are you talking about?

    I own a purebred "show" dog, and belong to a breed club, and I can't imagine anyone I know from either that would actually behave like you're describing. My breed club friends would bend over backwards to try to help you understand what you would/should see in a puppy or dog as far as temperament, health and conformation - most of all because they would be devastated to give you a puppy and have it be an unsuccessful match. (And, because most good breeders have a waiting list - they don't want to send a puppy to the wrong home).

    Now, I do own a breed that is known for being able to go from the show ring to the field in the same weekend, but seriously -- people are way nicer than you are describing.

    Unless, you go into a conversation about breeding looking to pick a fight. If you say something like "show me the proof rationally and without being a condescending prick" you're absolutely bound to get them on the defensive.

    Personally, the biggest thing for me is consistency of temperament, and a good breeder OWNS the breed of dog you are buying. If you ask, you should be able to get a list of references of people who own offspring or siblings, or just other good examples of the breed, and they would WANT to show you what the good dog is like.

    I agree with Grace that "research" on this sort of thing doesn't exist, so if you hold out for some sort of data, you will wait forever. But I can't tell you how many people have told me that "every brittany I've ever met is insane" despite the fact that 90% of the brittany owners I know call them "couch potatoes". (Partly, I am sure, because we understand that without proper exercise they could be crazy -- but I am confident that breeding plays a huge factor as well.) Either way, though, the biggest difference between a good breeder and a puppy mill breeder is that they would make sure YOU know what is necessary for the breed, and show you examples of proper temperament if given the proper exercise.

    After that, it's just the owners that need to do the work.


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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugbygirl View Post
    I agree, that would be a mistake. I think it is equally a mistake to assume that the breeders of unregistered dogs don't care about where they end up, or are negligent in breeding quality animals.
    If a breeder is breeding unregistered dogs - what is the purpose of their breeding program.

    If it is "to make money" - then I have a problem with that.

    If they are not registering, putting titles on their dogs (could be conformation but could be field, obedience, or agility?), evaluating for conformation, having health checks -- what makes this breeder a "breeder"? What criteria are they using to produce offspring?

    For some reason, some people on COTH would call that person a horrible backyard breeder if they were breeding horses - but that it is ok if they are breeding dogs.

    Because dogs are "only pets?"

    (That live in our house and interact with us every day, as well as our children and our guests, so why should we care about conformation, health and temperament?)


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  13. #53
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    What breed are you talking about?
    Pyrenees, although we also looked into Bernese Mountain dogs.

    I generally went into the interactions being pretty friendly and asking for information. With the Bernese, the lengthy written requirements that had to be completed before you emailed the breeder sealed the deal (when I called, she told me to complete the survey and please email her...so I started it...2.5 hours later I realized there was no way I would be qualified to buy a puppy from her, ever.) Also, since she and the rescue I contacted were adamant that the dogs must live in an environment where there was no possibility that they would have to climb stairs, ever...I was a little suspect of the "hip guarantee." That just seemed very odd. The Bernese I know in real life seem to make it to ripe old ages even if they have to walk up the odd staircase. When I asked "can you tell me a little bit more about the stair issue, please?" < direct quote...the woman at the rescue responded like I'd beaten a puppy to death. She was horrified that I would question such an obvious requirement, EVERYONE knows that Bernese puppies have special bone development requirements? Or something?

    We moved on to Pyrenees. Clearly too ignorant for the Bernese breed...honestly, husband and I don't want our ignorance to hurt a puppy...and we were obviously missing something about that breed. NONE of the show breeders I contacted had a single dog that was working with livestock. They were all show-ring only. When I let them know that our intent was to have the dogs live outside, that was the end of it. They said that they just couldn't let a good puppy go to a home like ours. You know. On a farm. With livestock.

    At that point, honestly, I gave up. Maybe too easily, I guess. Around the same time, the very pair of dogs that had me looking at Pyrenees in the first place found themselves expecting...The one was second-generation at the same farm, the other was third (no they were not related.) The owner had some really good advice for us, we did some more of our own research, talked to some local people who were working their dogs...and bought our two. So far, we're happy...but they might fail puppy class, I guess. They are smart around the horses and treat the Cat nicely. For 12 weeks old, we're pretty satisfied.

    I remember back in the day dealing with a Dalmatian breeder who was very reasonable though. She used to have show dogs. She was helpful and we decided that a Dal wasn't the breed for us, and she was cool with that. Really, a Dal would not have been ideal for us. She agreed with us that a small, non-shedding dog would be a better fit...and at the time, Bichon/Shih Tzus were a big thing. Ours was a happy, wonderful dog and she recently was put to sleep at 18. So I do recognize that there are good, reasonable show breeders. Of course, she doesn't do the registered/show thing anymore either. Neither do ANY of the German Shepherd people I know.
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1969 View Post
    If a breeder is breeding unregistered dogs - what is the purpose of their breeding program.

    If it is "to make money" - then I have a problem with that.

    If they are not registering, putting titles on their dogs (could be conformation but could be field, obedience, or agility?), evaluating for conformation, having health checks -- what makes this breeder a "breeder"? What criteria are they using to produce offspring?

    For some reason, some people on COTH would call that person a horrible backyard breeder if they were breeding horses - but that it is ok if they are breeding dogs.

    Because dogs are "only pets?"

    (That live in our house and interact with us every day, as well as our children and our guests, so why should we care about conformation, health and temperament?)
    actually, I do believe there are breeders of using dogs who do not bother with registries. That does not mean they can't tell you the pedigree 5 generations back.

    but of course, they are in the same pool as the breeders off oodles and cockas....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    actually, I do believe there are breeders of using dogs who do not bother with registries. That does not mean they can't tell you the pedigree 5 generations back.

    but of course, they are in the same pool as the breeders off oodles and cockas....
    No, not necessarily. I suspect that a lot of actual working dogs are not registered with the AKC, or other registries. If the sire & dam are good hunters, then it seems like the pups would likely be as well - registered or not. How to prove that your dogs are good hunters, though? AKC titles are certainly not the be-all, end-all of proof, but at least it is something. Perhaps the breeders can demonstrate that the dogs are good hunters or working dogs? That would be useful.

    But that doesn't get them off the hook for health checks and for deliberate, well-reasoned breeding -- e.g. someone who breeds their own male and female repeatedly....hmmmm.



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    "By the time the rescue pays for vaccination, spay/neuter, etc., they have about $200+ into a dog. It's only reasonable to expect an adopter of a pure bred dog to pay $200 and up for a dog.

    Mixes...that's a whole different story. "

    I'm confused; do you normally find mixes are cheaper to vaccinate and spay/neuter? I shall need to speak to my vet immediately. I believe they are charging me purebred prices!


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    I'm confused; do you normally find mixes are cheaper to vaccinate and spay/neuter? I shall need to speak to my vet immediately. I believe they are charging me purebred prices!

    BWAHAHAHA Exactly.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



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    When asked if he envisioned a future without pets, “If I had my personal view, perhaps that might take hold. In fact, I don’t want to see another dog or cat born.” Wayne Pacelle
    HSUS is what it is...with Pacelle at the helm it's the less bombastic version of PETA.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


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    Quote Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
    "By the time the rescue pays for vaccination, spay/neuter, etc., they have about $200+ into a dog. It's only reasonable to expect an adopter of a pure bred dog to pay $200 and up for a dog.

    Mixes...that's a whole different story. "



    I'm confused; do you normally find mixes are cheaper to vaccinate and spay/neuter? I shall need to speak to my vet immediately. I believe they are charging me purebred prices!
    You missed the "reasonable to expect" part. Mixes just aren't as easy to move as purebreds...so you have to drop the adoption fee...at least in my experience. Someone who wants a collie, wants a collie, not a collie/something mix. In addition, mixes were much harder to find homes for and took much longer to place. We could adopt out 5 collies in the time it took to find a home for a mix. Face it, people go to a breed rescue looking for that breed, not a mix. It is what it is...
    Last edited by LauraKY; May. 23, 2013 at 09:07 PM.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



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    you have to look for the real problem- and that is the owner who turns a dog over to the rescues/ shelters or abandons it to be picked up later.
    Doesn't matter where that person got the dog from, doesn't matter if they don't neuter, if they didn't dump the dog it wouldn't be a problem.
    Focus on the real problem and you can find a real solution.
    All the other arguments are a smokescreen. Which is why the problem hasn't been solved.


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