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  1. #21
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    At what point does a breeder need a license?
    In our county, you need a kennel license if you have more than three dogs on your property. Period. Breeding, not breeding, temporary, permanent.

    If by-law comes by in response to a complain about extra dogs, and you can't PROVE that the additional dog belongs to someone else and is not residing with you (ie: wandered in, TODAY) you pay the fine for being an unlicensed kennel.

    I like this, it gives you a really good basis for Animal Control action when you have a neighbor who is a terrible animal owner and is collecting dogs.

    Since our AC works primarily on complaints...I am sure there are plenty of people in the county who have unlicensed kennels, but IMO, I don't really care if I can't tell that they have multiple animals on the property. In this way "good" owners are not necessarily victimized. And most responsible kennel (boarding AND breeding) get licenses. If you made licenses harder to get, then enforcement would have to become a lot more important...because more people would risk being unlicensed. For a while. Until the fines came down.
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior



  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugbygirl View Post
    In our county, you need a kennel license if you have more than three dogs on your property. Period. Breeding, not breeding, temporary, permanent.
    This is a horrible law. Good owners most certainly are victimized.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  3. #23
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    As for the OP's title, I don't think rescues are an "easy out," but I abhor "rescues" who import dogs from other areas, who charge exorbitant fees ("But we need veterinary care!" Then you find out that all the vets donate their time and often the supplies/meds as well), and who are in reality puppy mills themselves.


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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLBGP View Post
    Legislation could definitely help. Too bad the AKC fights any attempts like crazy.

    http://t.today.com/news/akc-register...mber_242126060
    h well, since the HSUS is aiming to shut all breeders down, do you expect the AKC to take this laying down?

    It's an old hat, concocting requirements that look good on paper, with puppy mills in mind, but slam the small breeders who produce the quality animals.

    it's an old hat, older than my presence on the net!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
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  5. #25
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    This is a horrible law. Good owners most certainly are victimized.
    How? I honestly wonder.

    The vast majority of dog owners in the county are pet owners. How many pet dogs do you need on a single private property?
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugbygirl View Post
    How? I honestly wonder.

    The vast majority of dog owners in the county are pet owners. How many pet dogs do you need on a single private property?
    it depends on how it's worded.

    However, the HSUS intend is not to eliminate puppy mills. They make a good fund raising opportunity.

    I didn't look into the laws back in the day, but in essence the laws would put requirements on the small scale breeder that required huge investment for equipment and facilities they would not need nor ever use.

    it's kind of the thing, how do you tell a good breeder from a not so good one:

    The good breeder has a kenenl prefix, but seldom a kennel, while the other one has the kennels, but no kennel name.....

    You just don't let the 'one generation and out' Vegan crowd legislate animal husbandry! You might as well train a fox to herd your chickens
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.
    GNU Terry Prachett



  7. #27
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    You just don't let the 'one generation and out' Vegan crowd legislate animal husbandry! You might as well train a fox to herd your chickens
    Oh, I am in agreement there.

    I just don't think that the Kennel Clubs/Dog Show Organizations should be allowed to dictate either. Both parties are too extremist for my taste. Before someone else leaps down my throat though, no, I don't know exactly how to solve the issue...but I don't agree that the AKC is 100% in the right, and I want to illustrate that they do not share priorities with the vast majority of the pet-dog owning public, in my experience.
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugbygirl View Post
    Oh, I am in agreement there.

    I just don't think that the Kennel Clubs/Dog Show Organizations should be allowed to dictate either. Both parties are too extremist for my taste. Before someone else leaps down my throat though, no, I don't know exactly how to solve the issue...but I don't agree that the AKC is 100% in the right, and I want to illustrate that they do not share priorities with the vast majority of the pet-dog owning public, in my experience.
    well, see, that is the wrong argument.

    They don't dictate one bit. they keep records, they do not mandate you keep your dogs on the couch.

    In this instance they are 100% in the right. Because the welfare of the dogs is not the subject, but the straw man!
    The AKC published educational material and such to provide owners with knowledge. They don't require it. But they offer. And you do not have to have a pure bred, and they have changed a lot of things around for owners of mutts with competitive streaks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.
    GNU Terry Prachett


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  9. #29
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    I think the trick is targeting consumers. We're capitalists and we vote with our dollars. We need some kind of campaign around identifying puppy mill puppies. It seems obvious to most of the people who would post on here, but to much of America it isn't. I wonder if there is an opportunity for SPCA or Humane Society to sponsor an ad campaign around recognizing puppy mills and avoiding. If people stop giving them money they will get out of the business real fast.

    And I know this is not a total solution: it doesn't address the very real fact that there ARE puppy mill puppies who still deserve great homes. How can we solve both problems simultaneously?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



  10. #30
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    And I know this is not a total solution: it doesn't address the very real fact that there ARE puppy mill puppies who still deserve great homes. How can we solve both problems simultaneously?
    Well, a puppy mill will have a hard time proving that they are not a business. Crack down on them for tax evasion on all the unclaimed income. That might work.

    I am sure that any reputable AKC breeder who sells puppies is reporting the income, you know, as a responsible member of society. Then you'd protect good breeders, hurt bad ones, and not affect the pet-owning public (who make up most of the homes for ALL the dogs produced, by ALL types of breeding operations.)
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugbygirl View Post
    How? I honestly wonder.

    The vast majority of dog owners in the county are pet owners. How many pet dogs do you need on a single private property?
    How many pet dogs do YOU need on a single private property? None, imo. I hate dogs; I don't think you should have any, therefore I get to make the laws. WTH?

    What business is it of yours if your neighbor has 4 Chihuahuas? You don't think they need 4? Well, plenty of other people don't think anybody needs even one. Keep your own nose in your own business and leave your neighbors alone. See abuse or mistreatment? Of course report it. Somebody could be abusing the one & only dog they have. Those are the laws we need to enforce, not screaming puppy mill! kennel license! at some family who exceeds some arbitrary limit.

    Don't you see that your law effectively eliminates all dog breeding period? One bitch has 3 pups, bam! call the cops. Kennel violation. "They don't need all those dogs."

    I repeat. This is a horrible law.


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  12. #32
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    Don't you see that your law effectively eliminates all dog breeding period?
    Not even a little bit? People who want to breed dogs in the county (or run boarding operations, or doggy day cares) BUY KENNEL LICENSES.

    No idea why that's a huge problem. If you're breeding dogs, you should have a kennel license. This isn't "my" law, btw. It's the ACTUAL by-law in the county I live in. It was also the ACTUAL by-law in the City I used to live in.

    If my neighbor has four chiahuahuas, and I never notice them, then I don't care. Not a whit. They are probably responsible, which is why I never notice them. The dogs I notice are the ones running loose, coming onto MY property, barking at all hours...if I happen to notice THAT owner has more than three...well, yes, I may make a call. Pretty easily enforceable kennel violation.
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugbygirl View Post
    They don't dictate one bit

    That's the problem, because they create, maintain and do all of the assessment of breed standards.

    The way this is accomplished alienates plenty of pure-bred breeders, so my major contention is just that "the AKC will fight it tooth and nail" shouldn't determine whether or not a policy decision is made that affects ALL owners. The AKC fighting something does not, to me, necessarily make it something that should be fought.
    that is BS.

    the breed standards are kept by breed clubs. Not all are included in the AKC, not all of them want to be included in the AKC.

    And yes, they are the leaders in the field, by sheer numbers. Even an owner of mutts can recognize that.

    And btw, the AKC champions purebreds....mostly produced by reponsible individuals, not mutts, happening by people to everything to take appropriate steps to eliminate those breedings.

    The AKC does not infringe on your rights to own dogs, they don't care how many you have, or even what kind. That makes them the polar opposite from the HSUS, who, btw does not want any of us to own ay animals!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.
    GNU Terry Prachett


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  14. #34
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    We also need to do a better job in educating people to not buy puppies produced by puppy mills. We need to convey that these puppies are less healthy, more likely to have behavior problems, and less likely to have the looks, health, and temperament they are seeking.

    I am not convinced that any laws that regulate puppy mills will result in the production of puppies that have the requisite health, temperament, or conformation that people seek, no matter how restrictive these laws may be.

    I don't have the answers as to how to educate people to simply not buy puppy mill puppies. It seems to me that the information is not all that hard to obtain. I have to say, I managed to figure this out at the age of twelve, forty uummmh years ago. But I have also talked to many people who were pretty well educated to did not have a clue.

    Educating people to buy a purebred puppy from a responsible breeder, and teaching people what a responsible breeder is, is not always easy! Some of the animal rights groups tell people that there is no such thing as a responsible breeder. I do not think this is helpful.


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  15. #35
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    It's a tough subject because it's a chicken/egg issue. Which benefits from which? I loathe piss-poor animal husbandry. Loathe it with a white hot passion. But jumping on bandwagons and bans most often results in throwing babies out with the bathwater. Sure it might crimp a bunch of mills, but it's going to harm a helluva lot more honest, decent owners and/or breeders. Also we can't go around legislating certain things just because we personally don't do it or understand it. By far the tried and true, 100% effective way to stop issues like this is to dry up the demand. Eliminate or drastically reduce demand is what gets rid of the supply. Education of the public is definitely the answer, but like everything it's not done in a constant, widespread and non-crazy way. Protests are fine and can work, but the general public tends to see protesters are wackos. And finding people able to protest without coming across as wackos isn't easy. (thank PETA for that) Media needs to have more coverage, all media. And when it's online, it has to be on main-line sites and not specialized sites. News sites. Buyers need to demand to know the exact location/physical address of where their pups come from. Pet stores always claim "not from puppymills' and then give out of state locations, knowing buyers can't/won't check it out fully. But everything needs to be done in a way that does *not* remove rights from people. Although I haven't had more than 1-2 dogs at a time I ages, I think requiring a kennel license if I wanted a sled team again ridiculous.
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  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=MistyBlue;6994922]It's a tough subject because it's a chicken/egg issue. Which benefits from which? I loathe piss-poor animal husbandry. Loathe it with a white hot passion. But jumping on bandwagons and bans most often results in throwing babies out with the bathwater. Sure it might crimp a bunch of mills, but it's going to harm a helluva lot more honest, decent owners and/or breeders. Also we can't go around legislating certain things just because we personally don't do it or understand it. By far the tried and true, 100% effective way to stop issues like this is to dry up the demand. [QUOTE]

    Agreed. Are rescues an easy out? Sometimes, but once people want an animal out if their home, many don't really care what happens after that. I hate seeing dumped animals, but I think the practice would increase.
    I do think that the public is shockingly uneducated on things like health testing. Yes, reputable breeders are more expensive and might have a wait list, but I can't imagine not wanting that done.
    However, in terms of homeless animals, it often isn't the little dogs mills are breeding that are the problem - it is pit bull mixes, black lab mixes, German Shepherd mixes, etc. Low cost s/n programs are probably the best bet.



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    One thing I have to say from my own observations as a rescue volunteer in Rhodesian Ridgeback Rescue for years, these adoption fees are a bit intimidating to normal people. I understand the motivation behind them (to cover the costs of vetting, behavioral issues, training, etc), but anything more than about $100 turns good people away. I mean, in order to be a good do owner you ought to be able to write a check for $300 right now? I don't know what the solution is there.


    Paula
    I don't agree with you on this one. By the time the rescue pays for vaccination, spay/neuter, etc., they have about $200+ into a dog. It's only reasonable to expect an adopter of a pure bred dog to pay $200 and up for a dog.

    Mixes...that's a whole different story.
    Join the Clinton 2016 campaign...Hillary For America. https://www.hillaryclinton.com/


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugbygirl View Post
    If my neighbor has four chiahuahuas, and I never notice them, then I don't care. Not a whit. They are probably responsible, which is why I never notice them.
    Exactly. And this law, which you like, punishes the responsible family with 4 Chihuahuas who do everything right and don't bother anybody in the least and does NOTHING about the loose-running, barking dogs you're complaining about. There are already laws to deal with those loose-runners and nuisance barkers. Enforce those.

    Communities should enforce the laws already on their books and leave the good people alone: there are already laws against mistreatment, inadequate food/shelter, free-roaming, nuisance barking. Enforce those.

    And don't lump in 4 Chi family with doggy day cares and boarding kennels. Yes, those last 2 should have licenses. You are also lumping in quality breeders who have one litter ONCE in with puppy mills. This is wrong.



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houndhill View Post
    We also need to do a better job in educating people to not buy puppies produced by puppy mills. We need to convey that these puppies are less healthy, more likely to have behavior problems, and less likely to have the looks, health, and temperament they are seeking.

    I am not convinced that any laws that regulate puppy mills will result in the production of puppies that have the requisite health, temperament, or conformation that people seek, no matter how restrictive these laws may be.

    I don't have the answers as to how to educate people to simply not buy puppy mill puppies. It seems to me that the information is not all that hard to obtain. I have to say, I managed to figure this out at the age of twelve, forty uummmh years ago. But I have also talked to many people who were pretty well educated to did not have a clue.

    Educating people to buy a purebred puppy from a responsible breeder, and teaching people what a responsible breeder is, is not always easy! Some of the animal rights groups tell people that there is no such thing as a responsible breeder. I do not think this is helpful.
    well, we have come to a point where you are lower than the snake's belly when you get a pup from a good breeder instead of a mutt form the pound.

    And in turn when the millers and pet store get is past the cute stage, off to the pound they go, to let the county clean up their mess....and us feel happy and all warm and fuzzy inside when we get the critter from the pound/rescue.

    That mechanism alone is putting a damper on reputable breeders!

    so yeah, while the critter isn't at fault, the rescues do perpetuate the ill bred animal and the mongrel. After all, it's hybrid vigor, right!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter88 View Post
    I think the trick is targeting consumers. We're capitalists and we vote with our dollars. We need some kind of campaign around identifying puppy mill puppies. It seems obvious to most of the people who would post on here, but to much of America it isn't. I wonder if there is an opportunity for SPCA or Humane Society to sponsor an ad campaign around recognizing puppy mills and avoiding. If people stop giving them money they will get out of the business real fast.

    And I know this is not a total solution: it doesn't address the very real fact that there ARE puppy mill puppies who still deserve great homes. How can we solve both problems simultaneously?
    The SPCA of Texas put together a really nice anti-puppy mill PSA. Not sure if it's made a difference, but it's a compelling 30 second spot.

    See it here: http://www.spca.org/knowpuppymills



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