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  1. #1
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    Thumbs down That's Not A Vertical, That's A Spread!

    George commented on this months ago...somewhere, don't remember where....and he was right. I was in the show ring, most schooling fences at 2'6 yesterday, tho' I suppose height doesn't matter, and there was not a true vertical in the entire arena! The fences that should have been verticals--like a gate with a pole or two on top, had flower box as wide, if not wider than my forearm in front of it, in back of it (gotta be able to jump it both ways without stopping the flow of classes!) and an additional smaller flower box/ground line in front of that. It was wide. And certainly not even in the realm of a vertical. Likewise the oxers had the same wide flower box/ground line flower box arrangement, making the oxer wider than normal. What the heck is going on here?

    Show management, course designers! This is not a course of Verticals and oxers!
    My treasures do not chink, nor glitter. They carry me to great heights, they gleam in the sun, and they neigh in the night. That is my life, at the end of the day.



  2. #2
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    Agreed.
    Proud to have two Takaupa Gold line POAs!
    Takaupas Top Gold
    Gifts Black Gold Knight



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsegurl View Post
    George commented on this months ago...somewhere, don't remember where....and he was right. I was in the show ring, most schooling fences at 2'6 yesterday, tho' I suppose height doesn't matter, and there was not a true vertical in the entire arena! The fences that should have been verticals--like a gate with a pole or two on top, had flower box as wide, if not wider than my forearm in front of it, in back of it (gotta be able to jump it both ways without stopping the flow of classes!) and an additional smaller flower box/ground line in front of that. It was wide. And certainly not even in the realm of a vertical. Likewise the oxers had the same wide flower box/ground line flower box arrangement, making the oxer wider than normal. What the heck is going on here?

    Show management, course designers! This is not a course of Verticals and oxers!
    Thanks for bringing this to our attention. No one has ever mentioned this here before. I will be sure to check this thread regularly, as it will undoubtedly spark lots of stimulating, well-thought out responses.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
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    Go to some schooling shows. You can watch plenty of dismal jumping over jumps with no groundline. It will make you appreciate those nice flower boxes.


    21 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
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    The point of hunters is to encourage a smooth, flowing course and get the horse to jump its best, and definitely NOT knocking rails. Good ground lines and rampy, wide jumps encourage round, tight, 'pretty' jumps from horses. True verticals don't.
    .


    8 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
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    Does it matters at 2'6? It's a glorified canter step, a flower box isn't really going to make a difference at that height.

    My bigger complaint at local shows is oxers that are barely spread. OK I take that back, I'm an old weenie now, so I know I *should* complain about narrow oxers but I am secretly relieved.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
    The point of hunters is to encourage a smooth, flowing course and get the horse to jump its best, and definitely NOT knocking rails. Good ground lines and rampy, wide jumps encourage round, tight, 'pretty' jumps from horses. True verticals don't.
    This.
    You don't scare me. I ride a MARE!


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  8. #8
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    Nov. 30, 2008
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    But I'm not talking about a "good ground line", I am talking about a ground line, then a 1 foot wide box, then the vertical, then another 1 foot wide box and a ground line. So the vertical, just became a 2 foot wide--or better--oxer. Nothing "vertical" about it, and the type of wide jump that encourages horses to stretch out and NOT keep their front end tight, neat and SAFE.
    No DMK, the size doesn't matter, I was just spewing and that's what came out. It's the same fence build out on the 3'6 or 3'3' or what ever size jumps.
    My treasures do not chink, nor glitter. They carry me to great heights, they gleam in the sun, and they neigh in the night. That is my life, at the end of the day.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
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    I agree with the OP--the last time I was at the horse complex here for an indoor show, there was so much filler and flower boxes on all the jumps that the verticals were basically spreads, and the oxers were wider than they were intended to be. And this was also at 2'6"...not much, I know, but still. I agree that it's good to have good ground lines so the horses have a better perspective, but there is a difference between a ground line and a whole two feet of filler in front of the jump.
    FWIW, at this show there were a lot of rails. In the hunters. And in the classes at 2'6" and lower (didn't see much of the higher classes so I can't comment on that). The horses with the rails looked like they were just sprawling themselves over the jump instead of rocking back and pushing off. These same horses didn't seem to care to pick up their knees and be more careful. I don't know if this is because the horses in these classes were younger and less experienced, or if it was because the jumps made it easy to just sprawl and flatten out in the air; sometimes it was definitely rider error. Maybe it was one or the other, or a combination of the three, I'm not really sure. Just thought it was worth a mention...
    If i smell like peppermint, I gave my horse treats.
    If I smell like shampoo, I gave my horse a bath.
    If I smell like manure, I tripped.


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  10. #10
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    I would think that unless the flower boxes are outrageously wide, they are well within the space that a horse has to clear in any case in order to clear the top of the jump. The point is to encourage a bascule rather than a "pop".
    Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.


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  11. #11
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    Horses are jumping 6 feet out from the jump and 6 feet on the other side, so I suppose the only difference a vertical not being quite a vertical would make is a better jump. Yes, it's sad that riders aren't being taught to ride a good vertical with no ground line anymore, but if you want that, you can try out the eq and jumper classes. It's just not happening anymore, but I don't think it's that big of a deal.
    .אני יכול לעשות הכל על ידי אלוהים



  12. #12
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    A lot of the bad jumping described here is the result of bad riding off no pace though. Sloppy "dog jumps", sprawling, reaching, loose front end are normally the result of no pace, no help from the rider to get to the base and the rider getting in the way of the horse jumping ahead, laying on the neck and/or stiffing them and opening up too early.

    They do stuff the jumps pretty good these days, actually they have been since I started showing in '94 or 5 in the Hunters. It is intended to produce a better jump style wise-and it is a show. Rules are specific about width to height ratio at rated shows so it's not that big a deal IMO.

    Plus that, a lot of them jump ugly over low stuff regardless of width.

    ynl063w? Got your tongue in your cheek there?
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  13. #13
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    Yes, this is a topic that George has written about numerous times in the Chronicle. He bemoans the act that even 'verticals' now are essentially triple bars, with three planes of dimension.

    In fact, I'm working on an article with George to run in the magazine soon which includes photos of hunters from decades gone, jumping fences that would never appear on a course these days and doing it just as well as the horses that jump the 'triple bars' of today. In digging through the photo archives, I found a picture of one of the most famous hunters of all time, Cold Climate, jumping a section of snow fence that had been set between two wing standards. No filler, no ground line, just snow fence. And he's jumping perfectly.


    14 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBoylen View Post
    Go to some schooling shows. You can watch plenty of dismal jumping over jumps with no groundline. It will make you appreciate those nice flower boxes.
    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    It is intended to produce a better jump style wise-and it is a show.
    I agree it produces a nicer jump, but it narrows the definition of what a nicer jump is, right? Instead of there being a nice jump over a vertical and a nice jump over an oxer, there is just one nice jump and that is all the horses are being set up to do.

    A vertical can be be jumped well, so why not let the horses (and riders) prove that?

    Quote Originally Posted by DMK View Post
    My bigger complaint at local shows is oxers that are barely spread. OK I take that back, I'm an old weenie now, so I know I *should* complain about narrow oxers but I am secretly relieved.
    I resemble that remark.
    Last edited by RugBug; May. 23, 2013 at 04:53 PM.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"


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  15. #15
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    LOL me too!

    And while I don't get to hung up on what happens at 2'6, I do think it would be nice if we at least made true verticals mandatory in the handy (or at least one class if no handy is offered) in any rated division. Because anyone who has ever watched a hunter derby can see the quality of the jump (and the riding) when that stark old style vertical shows up. No need to make a ring full of them, I have a feeling one will get the job done nicely.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


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  16. #16
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    Rugbug, "A vertical can be be jumped well, so why not let the horses (and riders) prove that?"

    Maybe because so many couldn't?
    www.ayliprod.com
    Equine Photography in the Northeast


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  17. #17
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    "Maybe so many couldn't."

    Maybe they need to go back to basics and learn how to do them.

    I rode hunters back in the late '70's and early '80's. We always had a line with a vertical, five or six strides, to an oxer. We had a vertical to an oxer, one stride, in and out. No problems. They separate the good riders from the bad.

    BTW, if you are jumping a 2'6" vertical, your horse should leave the ground 2'6" to 2'9" away from the fence to produce a perfect jump. A 3' vertical should be jumped 3' to 3'3" away to produce a perfect jump. You would need a very scopy horse to leave 6' out from a 2'6" jump. I think that you might just be eating it for lunch.

    Placing a flower box directly under the vertical would be appropriate and can be jumped from either direction. Having one on either side of the vertical is odd.
    When in Doubt, let your horse do the Thinking!


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  18. #18
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    Feb. 6, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    I agree it produces a nicer jump, but it narrows the definition of what a nicer jump is, right? Instead of there being a nice jump over a vertical and a nice jump over an oxer, there is just one nice jump and that is all the horses are being set up to do.

    A vertical can be be jumped well, so why not let the horses (and riders) prove that?
    Really.
    If the idea is to pick out the best horse, why not pose a question or two that lets the judge see which horse actually has talent instead of doing the equivalent of providing someone taking a test with a page full of hints?
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auburn View Post
    "Maybe so many couldn't."

    Maybe they need to go back to basics and learn how to do them.
    Just maybe. Isn't THAT a novel idea.
    www.ayliprod.com
    Equine Photography in the Northeast



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsegurl View Post
    George commented on this months ago...somewhere, don't remember where....and he was right!
    He has been saying that for DECADES, not just months.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


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