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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
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    CA
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    120

    Unhappy Late Twin Detection

    So... it's been a stressful weekend. I half own a mare with my friend. We bred her to Popeye K and she is due Aug. 3. We made sure to do the typical day 14 check, the day 16 twin check, and the heart beat check. All looked great. Vet is an experienced repro specialist. Best in the area. The mare has been doing very well throughout the pregnancy, and we were excited about entering the final trimester at last. Then, everything got turned upside down. The mare began bagging up and almost looked as if she was waxing (odd discharge from her udder). My friend immediately took her in and the vet looked at her cervix. Looked normal and tight. Then she ultrasounded and was able to see the foal's head. Also checked for response and he/she passed that as well. She also took a blood test for estrone sulfate levels. Sent us home with regumate and SMZ's. Today we got the blood test results back, and her estrone sulfate was perfect. However, she has started to produce discharge from her vulva, so the vet is having us bring in a sample. The vet says that due to the estrone sulfate results, her best guess is that SOMEHOW we missed a twin in there . We are increasing the regumate, and adding banamine as well as another antibiotic. Right now it really just feels like a super scary waiting game. She has 81 days until her due date.

    Anyone have experience with this? Words of encouragement? This is the mare's first foal ever, and my first time breeding, so it is all very overwhelming.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr. 28, 2004
    Location
    Saratoga Springs, NY
    Posts
    4,523

    Default

    At this point, if there WERE twins, shouldn't the vet have been able to see both on the ultrasound? Just seems like it would be a lot harder to miss now. Although I could very well be wrong.
    Different Times Equestrian Ventures at Hidden Spring Ranch
    www.DifferentTimesEquestrianVentures.com



  3. #3

    Default

    No...not necessarily easier to see twins at this point. at this point you see baby "parts" (eyeball ect) on ultrsound and not the whole foal... so really hard to see or feel if you have one or two unless it is super obvious...like 8 legs.

    I feel the posters pain, had a similar experience 6 years ago were the mare bagged up early. treated for placentitis but about a week in the mare aborted twins. Hopefully not the case in this situation and if so, you end of with the 1/15,000 of live twins.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2006
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    Maine
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    1,598

    Default

    I have heard of success with regumate getting foals to a viable point.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2006
    Location
    Virginia
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    274

    Default

    I had a mare foal full term undetected twins. We did not detect them until after the fact after multiple ultrasound checks from 14-16-18-30-45 days.

    We ultrasound checked again around 270-280 because I knew something was off. No signs of twins but she was treated for placentitis. She was palpated at sometime after that as well. No signs of twins.

    She foaled normally in a normal timeframe for her, a correct filly who stood and nursed immediately. I commented that she seemed smaller then her other foals but all else seemed ok.

    Later in the evening she became colicky. We administered Banamine. She seemed better. Thought it was some post foaling pain. The next AM she was up and down. She then foaled a smaller but fully formed dead foal breech who had umbilical strangle.

    My mare was fine and had a normal pregnancy & foaling since.

    This mare had Absorbed a few pregnancies in her past, so was on Regumate and immunal throughout the pregnancy. IIRC, we added SMZ and Pentoxifyline at 280 days.

    I'll look back thru my records.

    Hopefully your mare will have a safe foaling. At least you are aware of her twins.
    Robin Stewart
    www.woodsendfarm.com


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2006
    Location
    Virginia
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    274

    Default

    I just wanted to add that my mare often double ovulated. We successfully pinched twins on her on quite a few pregnancies. We were being very diligent looking for them and they were still missed.

    It's hard to believe it can happen, but it does.

    Again, best of luck to you!
    Robin Stewart
    www.woodsendfarm.com


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr. 8, 2009
    Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
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    954

    Default

    I had a repro vet miss twins one year. She was scanned at 14, 16, 21, 30, and 45 days. I also had her scanned at 5 months because I was going overseas and wanted to be sure she was still in foal. He did not suspect twins. Sadly she aborted twins at 7 months (while I was overseas!) with no warning

    She was not drug supported in any way though. Things are different if you know about the twins. Best of luck in this. My thoughts are with you.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
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    CA
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    120

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Justbay1 View Post
    I had a mare foal full term undetected twins. We did not detect them until after the fact after multiple ultrasound checks from 14-16-18-30-45 days.

    We ultrasound checked again around 270-280 because I knew something was off. No signs of twins but she was treated for placentitis. She was palpated at sometime after that as well. No signs of twins.

    She foaled normally in a normal timeframe for her, a correct filly who stood and nursed immediately. I commented that she seemed smaller then her other foals but all else seemed ok.

    Later in the evening she became colicky. We administered Banamine. She seemed better. Thought it was some post foaling pain. The next AM she was up and down. She then foaled a smaller but fully formed dead foal breech who had umbilical strangle.

    My mare was fine and had a normal pregnancy & foaling since.
    Thank you so much for this story. It is really easy to try to find what we did wrong or to blame the vet. But the reality is, the vet is great, and we really did everything we knew to do. I am really hoping that we caught it early enough, and that like in the case of your mare, she is able to produce the larger and currently healthy foal. I am assuming that the filly that was born first ended up surviving? Did it grow up successfully? Or did it continue to have problems throughout its life?


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  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
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    CA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerole View Post
    I had a repro vet miss twins one year. She was scanned at 14, 16, 21, 30, and 45 days. I also had her scanned at 5 months because I was going overseas and wanted to be sure she was still in foal. He did not suspect twins. Sadly she aborted twins at 7 months (while I was overseas!) with no warning

    She was not drug supported in any way though. Things are different if you know about the twins. Best of luck in this. My thoughts are with you.
    Thanks for the thoughts! I am so sorry that this happened to you! I will be in London during the final six weeks of her due date, so I can totally picture how hard that would be for you!



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul. 14, 2004
    Location
    Virginia. We Do Ponies!
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    11,699

    Default

    I too had a mare foal full term undetected twins. The vet I was using at the time also did multiple ultrasound checks from 14-16-18-45 days. She also (like Robin's mare) double ovulated. I had pinched twins on her on quite a few pregnancies. Those Thoroughbreds are prone to this, unfortunately. The difference with my situation is my mare delivered at 334 days full term twins and everyone (thank God) survived. Like your mare, she showed signs earlier that something wasn't quite right (and she looked like a freaking bus).

    Her earlier signs were waxing at 328 days, very stocked up legs but no discharge.

    You can read about my situation here from my thread from March of 2006:
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...AP%21+TWINS%21

    Good luck with your mare. It's a hellish thing for any of us to go through.
    Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov. 28, 2003
    Location
    MO
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    First, if your vet cannot perform a trans-abdominal ultrasound to diagnose twins, then find a referral center that can and take your mare there. You need to know if you definitely have twins (and an estrone sulfate test is not a definitive diagnosis) or if you have placentitis. If the mare has placentitis, then aggressive treatment is needed, but you may be able to save the foal. If the mare has twins (and this won't be a popular thing to say) then you should strongly consider having the pregnancy terminated NOW, in a controlled clinical setting. This is why a transabdominal ultrasound is critical; you will know if there are twins, you will know if one/both are alive, etc. and you can better make decisions regarding the mares treatment.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
    www.HillsideHRanch.com


    6 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec. 12, 2006
    Location
    Gulf Coast (AL/FL)
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    418

    Default

    Had a mare foal twins (undetected) last year - Born Friday April 13th. Full term, mare was never any larger than she had been for previous foals.

    Both were smaller than normal - 1 placenta shared for them both.According to the vet our odds were against them. Bottle raised the colt (he was the weaker of the two). But while he was always smaller of the two, both grew very well. Filly is a "normal" sized TB yearling. Colt was normally developed just small even at a year. Both eventually went out together into our main pasture and held their own very well.

    [We lost the colt to a freak pasture accident right after their year birthday ]
    Crayola Posse~ on the bus in Mahognany



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2008
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    575

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Justbay1 View Post
    She foaled normally in a normal timeframe for her, a correct filly who stood and nursed immediately. I commented that she seemed smaller then her other foals but all else seemed ok.

    .
    Did this foal catch up in size or remain smaller?



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
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    Default

    The surviving filly has topped out at 15 H as a 4 yo. So she is considerably smaller then her 5 other siblings that matured from 16H to 17.1 H with varying stallions.

    She hasn't had any problems, just an awkward size for A show hunter. I hope I can make her a family or local horse. Possibly a dressage horse for a smaller rider.
    Robin Stewart
    www.woodsendfarm.com



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct. 11, 2007
    Location
    Andover, MA
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    5,125

    Default

    EEk, this sounds very scary. I do hope you end up with a healthy mare and foal(s).
    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

    Proudly owned by Mythic Feronia, 1998 Morgan mare; G-dspeed Trump & Minnie; welcome 2014 Morgan filly MtnTop FlyWithMeJosephine



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
    Location
    CA
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    Hey everyone... it's about a week out since the mare bagged up and we had the vet check her. So far, since being on the regumate and SMZ regimen, her teats have tightened up and she no longer has any vulvar discharge. Definitely not "hopeful" yet, but feeling a little better about the situation. All of your input and experiences have been SO helpful, keep them coming! I will continue to post updates for better or worse for those who are interested...


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2002
    Location
    FL
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    8,246

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    In 1999 I had a mare bag up and start dripping milk at 280 days. She had been previously checked for twins at the usual times, and the vet even stated that she could not have twins, because she had had a single ovulation.

    We took her to my local veterinary teaching hospital and a trans-abdominal US showed twin foals of equal size, one in each horn. I chose to abort in a clinical setting for the mare's safety. It was a difficult choice, but one that I did not regret. The mare went on to have many other healthy foals and I was always insistent on aggressive twin checks for her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hillside H Ranch View Post
    First, if your vet cannot perform a trans-abdominal ultrasound to diagnose twins, then find a referral center that can and take your mare there. You need to know if you definitely have twins (and an estrone sulfate test is not a definitive diagnosis) or if you have placentitis. If the mare has placentitis, then aggressive treatment is needed, but you may be able to save the foal. If the mare has twins (and this won't be a popular thing to say) then you should strongly consider having the pregnancy terminated NOW, in a controlled clinical setting. This is why a transabdominal ultrasound is critical; you will know if there are twins, you will know if one/both are alive, etc. and you can better make decisions regarding the mares treatment.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
    Location
    CA
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    120

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    Just an update to this thread! My mare delivered a perfectly healthy single foal yesterday without assistance or any problems! So happy that what happened before was purely maiden mare drama.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2006
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    WNY
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    Thank goodness! Just think, all those stress ulcers you gave yourself were for nothing!

    Pictures???
    Against My Better Judgement: A blog about my new FLF OTTB
    Do not buy a Volkswagen. I did and I regret it.
    VW sucks.



  20. #20
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    Mar. 8, 2004
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    Baltimore, MD
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    Holy cow, what a relief! Glad she went at a reasonable date so you weren't waiting too long.



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