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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    it's ALWAYS the owner, not the dogs, that is the problem.
    if that were true, then there would be no problem. Sometimes it IS the dog. Often it's learned behavior but I've seen plenty of genetically fearful dogs that required strict management and never-ending training simply to keep the people around that dog safe.

    Unless, of course you are speaking of the legislators. In that case it is the people who are the problem because they have not educated themselves.


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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquishTheBunny View Post
    I think its really really important to ensure they get the right people rather than people getting the right dog.
    this is so incredibly true. I feel that the shelters in my area do a lousy job of matching people with appropriate dogs.


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    It's been on the books in Germany for many years now. Pain in the batooty. If I were to acquire a dog of unknown origin who just happens to look the part, part Pit, or Staffy or whatever, I would do well not even considering bringing the pooch along should I ahve to move there.
    I have a friend in Germany who found a Pit Bull here and really wanted to bring her home. She said something about having to pass obedience classes or something with her to get a license so she could have her. I'm not sure of how easy it is or costly, but it could be a good way to make sure Pit Bulls and other "dangerous" breeds always end up in good hands. DH and I have had Aussies, a Heeler/Aussie, a Doberman, a Beagle, and a Rat Terrier and the Beagle and the Rat Terrier were the two most likely to bite you and they're the only ones on that list that never show up on breed bans.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightlee View Post
    Solution is to require a permit for certain breeds. Prerequisite for permit is 1m umbrella policy.
    Because, of course, the gang members etc who are some of the owners of these bad dogs are definitely going to follow that law like they do all the others (like drug laws, gun laws etc).
    I have a pit bull who is sleeping here beside me at work. And I am happy to say that Liberty Mutual insures us with no problems for our homeowner's insurance.

    Breed bans punish the owners who are RESPONSIBLE and that is it. Breed bans are not the way to go.


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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquishTheBunny View Post
    I also believe 100% of pitbulls adopted from shelters are to be sterilized to prevent backyard breeding.
    I think this is true for EVERYTHING!

    A lot of times I'm tempted to include people in that as well.
    Pisgah: 2000 AHHA (Holsteiner x TB) Mare (lower level eventing, with a focus on dressage)

    Darcy: 7? year old Border Collie x Rottweiler? Drama Queen extraordinaire, rescued from the pound in Jan 2010



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by OveroHunter View Post
    I have a friend in Germany who found a Pit Bull here and really wanted to bring her home. She said something about having to pass obedience classes or something with her to get a license so she could have her. I'm not sure of how easy it is or costly, but it could be a good way to make sure Pit Bulls and other "dangerous" breeds always end up in good hands. DH and I have had Aussies, a Heeler/Aussie, a Doberman, a Beagle, and a Rat Terrier and the Beagle and the Rat Terrier were the two most likely to bite you and they're the only ones on that list that never show up on breed bans.
    it's a pain in the butt, since a lot of communities also have ridiculous license fees for 'fighting breeds', I heard a lump sum of something like 6-8 thousand marks back in the day, that's roughly about 3k dollars a year (or with the Euro conversion 6-8k....really insane!)

    I would not even bother to bring such a dog.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.



  7. #27
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    I'd never be for breed bans...once that snowball gets rolling it will grow into an avalanche pretty easily. With a big ol' hand from the insurance companies hoping to hold onto as much profit as possible.

    Most of my dogs have been either considered high risk breeds or were high risk individuals. And while certain breeds do indeed attract the worst possible owners, it is definitely not always the owner and never the dog.

    Not every dog of each at risk breed will be tough, but a dog will act like it's been purpose created to in general. And without the proper human and constant proper handling as the owner, it does too often result in problems; hence the lists of problem breeds. And that doesn't just pertain to "gangsta" owners...there are tons of dogs owned by Breed Blind people too and they cause almost as many problems for the breed they love.

    Learn to recognize and accept each breed for what it's been created for instead of taking the underdog, overly defensive position about it.

    Dogs will do what their breed dictates most of the time. Get a Siberian Husky or Alaskan Malamute and it's gonna pull on the leash most of the time, have a strong pack mentality and probably chase or bully smaller animals. Not every one, but most will regardless if they were bred to pull or to show or as pets.

    Get a Cattle Dog, Aussie Shepherd, etc and it's gonna herd stuff whether bred by a working dog line or not.

    A JRT loose in your house is most likely going to eat your gerbil if you let that gerbil roam free. It's not a vicious killer, it's a JRT and if they were raised together or not...at some point that instinct is going to kick in and JRT is going to shake Nibbles to death.

    Sight Hounds chase anything moving fast, scent hounds follow their noses. Setters are going to point, retrievers are going to retrieve.

    Unless you have a dingo, fox, wolf, etc...your canine of ANY type was purpose created by umpty-million generations of selective breeding and most will at some point ac exactly as their genetics dictate. It doesn't make any single breed or dog bad. And despite the head shakers reading this right now...some bully breeds are going to show dog aggression despite who bred it and who owns it. And sadly due to REALLY screwed up breeding or handling, some will show people aggression although that is probably most often from really fakakta owners or breeders. But anyone who is surprised that some bully breeds can become dog aggressive out of the blue or anyone who believes that because they love their pet and never wore their pants hanging off their bums it would never act on instincts for any reason is delusional. And it's not a bash against pitt bulls, Mals do a similar thing and probably on average more often than pitts. They're just a LOT less numerous.

    I'd not have an issue with permits required for certain breeds and anyone owning them being liable to show proof of permit of have consequences such as fines or confiscation even. Doesn't matter if the "bad guys" don't bother getting permits...if they take the dog outside then it's seen and reported for proof of permit. Could cut down on numbers dramatically since many thugs have a pathetic need to be seen with their dogs. No different than some exotic pets requiring permits. Legal to own or breed them, just registering and permit required. And just like for exotics...permits are for the benefit of the ANIMAL and not a punishment for the owner.
    You jump in the saddle,
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    ...Belefonte


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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquishTheBunny View Post
    The ban HAS cut down on the amount of pits in shelters, as there are less "unwanted" pits out there. I dont agree with euthanizing breeds just because they are of "that" breed, but I think adopting these breeds out from shelters MUST be heavily screened. I also believe 100% of pitbulls adopted from shelters are to be sterilized to prevent backyard breeding.
    I believe ANY dog or cat being adopted from a shelter or rescue should be spayed or neutered. I don't care WHAT kind of dog it is. For instance, I live in an area with a "pit bull problem" - there are tons - but there are plenty of other backyard breeder problems (particularly Chihuahuas/Chihuahua mixes). On county shelter has a no-cost spay/neuter program for Chihuahuas.

    The pit bull groups here in CA (particularly in the Bay Area) have done a great job with advocacy, low cost spay/neuter, and owner education. The city of Berkeley animal shelter has done a fantastic job of ensuring bullies go to good homes - it's a longer process than adopting non-pit bull breeds - and providing followup education with BAD RAP, an advocacy group that runs "Pit Ed" obedience/socialization classes. People adopting from the shelter get in on the classes immediately (they usually have a long waiting list).

    I have insurance through USAA & they've got no problem with my well-behaved pit bulls. I'm all for aggressively (ha) pursuing aggressive dog problems, but BSL is a crock.


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  9. #29
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    A breed ban is the only fair solution to the pit bull problem. Currently, pit bull owners are taking advantage of the historic positive attitude toward dogs - the sense that a typical dog bite is a nip or a scratch, and that common sense dictates that dogs sometimes have a good reason to nip or scratch - to avoid personal responsibility for their own choices. Everyone else is currently financing the choice of various people to buy or adopt animals that are not typical dogs. The "fighting" breeds are all different. They were designed to attack and not quit. They are mistakes, savage tragedies of human cruelty, to enhance a drive to maim, maul and kill their own species. They should be banned. If you like the look, if you like the other aspects of the breed, do what every other breed fancy has had to do, and eliminate the artificially enhanced drive that makes it unable to live normally in an average pet home. Or, if you find that distasteful and inauthentic, then go the other direction and admit they're not just labs with bad PR, and accept ownership restrictions. But you should choose, because there is a growing backlash as more and more pit bulls are adopted out and more and more people are going through the hell of losing a dog or a child or an arm to a "dog bite" that's quite a different matter than a "dog bite" used to be.


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  10. #30
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    What Vacation1 and MistyBlue are forgetting is that these dogs WERE bred to fight. Yes. But fight OTHER DOGS. Historical breeding (for umpteen years) has been to show aggression to other dogs.....NOT humans. ANY dog who showed aggression in the ring toward humans were culled.
    People who want breed bans and breed specific legislation do NOT understand that this only punishes the responsible owners who make sure their pit bull (please note the spelling) is properly socialized and gets along with other dogs.
    Those people who don't properly socialize their pit bulls are likely already NOT following laws anyway and would likely ignore breed bans.


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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    it's a pain in the butt, since a lot of communities also have ridiculous license fees for 'fighting breeds', I heard a lump sum of something like 6-8 thousand marks back in the day, that's roughly about 3k dollars a year (or with the Euro conversion 6-8k....really insane!)

    I would not even bother to bring such a dog.
    Wow, I had no idea it was that costly! She just mentioned it and then decided not to go through with it because the dog ended up finding a really good home.
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  12. #32
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    MistyBlue didn't forget, she mentions in the second to last paragraph of her post how the dogs have dog aggression instincts due to being bred that way. And how some, due to extremely poor breeding or handling, can show people aggression too.
    Not that the dogs are instinctively people aggressive.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by OveroHunter View Post
    Wow, I had no idea it was that costly! She just mentioned it and then decided not to go through with it because the dog ended up finding a really good home.
    I know, right.
    I have been looking on petfinder for a Dalmatian, but most are mutts, many with square heads like pits....I might have to move in the dog's lifetime. And I am really bad at giving animals away, since nobody wants what I have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    MistyBlue didn't forget, she mentions in the second to last paragraph of her post how the dogs have dog aggression instincts due to being bred that way. And how some, due to extremely poor breeding or handling, can show people aggression too.
    Not that the dogs are instinctively people aggressive.
    I'm NOT sure at all that the people aggression is bred into the dogs at all. It can certainly be TRAINED into the dogs but in such a short time, it is unlikely that it is bred in.
    What I WOULD support in regards to this issue, is enforcement of a unneutered animal rule. If you're out walking around with your unneutered dog, it better have a license and that license would be more expensive to obtain. If you are out walking around and found to NOT have that license, the dog is removed from your custody and neutered. THAT would be a good way to handle a lot of problems. Dog officers are well underfunded but this would be a good way to stop a multitude of problems.
    Note that I am saying DOG....not just pit bulls.


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  15. #35
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    Ah, a misunderstanding then. I wasn't clear...when I said "poor breeding" I meant that dogs showing aggressive traits towards humans weren't taken out of the gene pool, but allowed to breed. Well, that morons too cheap to speuter let anything hump and reproduce, and that includes dogs that show feed aggression, alpha tendencies, resource guarding, nervous biting, etc. All behaviors that can often result in biting people. Which can and does happen in any breed.
    Not that dogs showing people aggression were purposely bred.

    Although thugs do purpose breed 2 types of bullies: dog aggressive ones for fighting and people aggressive ones for guarding. But in general tons of bullies are "woops" bred by idjits who never fixed theirs.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    A breed ban is the only fair solution to the pit bull problem. Currently, pit bull owners are taking advantage of the historic positive attitude toward dogs - the sense that a typical dog bite is a nip or a scratch, and that common sense dictates that dogs sometimes have a good reason to nip or scratch - to avoid personal responsibility for their own choices. Everyone else is currently financing the choice of various people to buy or adopt animals that are not typical dogs. The "fighting" breeds are all different. They were designed to attack and not quit. They are mistakes, savage tragedies of human cruelty, to enhance a drive to maim, maul and kill their own species. They should be banned. If you like the look, if you like the other aspects of the breed, do what every other breed fancy has had to do, and eliminate the artificially enhanced drive that makes it unable to live normally in an average pet home. Or, if you find that distasteful and inauthentic, then go the other direction and admit they're not just labs with bad PR, and accept ownership restrictions. But you should choose, because there is a growing backlash as more and more pit bulls are adopted out and more and more people are going through the hell of losing a dog or a child or an arm to a "dog bite" that's quite a different matter than a "dog bite" used to be.
    Please read the following links in order to educate yourself on the breed and BSL....

    http://hugabull.com/resources/pit-bull/
    http://hugabull.com/resources/bsl/

    This is a wonderful organization in Vancouver, BC that advocates for the pit bull breed. I do have a pit bull, she is laying at my feet at the office right now. She came from a bad situation but is a wonderful dog despite it. She has had many health problems - hip problems, a knee thats been replaced, and cancerous lumps (she's only 8!). I don't let her play with unfamiliar dogs because of her hips, she has become more grumpy with strange dogs. Our vet says that is perfectly normal. She loves her familiar furry dog friends as well our cat, who she has lived with for 7 years. So yes, I disagree with BSL.

    So, a breed ban - how is that helpful? I've been bitten by a Chihuahua (who also bit my pit bull on the head...), Shih Tzu, German Shepherd, Labs, and a Standard poodle in my lifetime. Can we ban all of those breeds? OH WAIT. That wouldn't be fair, because the majority of those breeds are loving, friendly dogs.

    It comes down to proper socialization and training, with any breed. As for dog bites, the media does a great job of striking fear into peoples hearts about pit bulls, however, where is the proof that it is truly a pit bull? If it even resembles a bully breed it becomes a pit bull in the media - I have met people on the sreet who have no idea my dog is a pitty until I tell them. So, what are they doing running around screaming "breed ban!"...they don't even know what breed they're banning.


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  17. #37
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    Unfortunately, there are a few people out there who couldn't care less Miraya about the good pit bulls that exist out there. My Scarlett was with me all day the last two days at work socializing with people. She's been going with me to work because she misses her labrador cross brother whom we put to sleep a little over a month ago now.
    The media DOES do a good job teaching people to fear these dogs and unfortunately some people DO educate themselves through the media. These days the media's only job is to get ratings...not necessarily report facts. But some people obviously don't care about that.

    MistyBlue, I can't think of dogs more poorly bred than Michael Vick's dogs. They were trained to be fighters and just plain nasty. But just as they were trained to fight, many of them have been rehabilitated to become healthy members of society. The traits you are describing in my opinion are due to poor socialization and training rather than indiscriminate breeding.
    Why, then, will I support the "Speuter law" (great word btw)? How will that fix the problem if the problem isn't necessarily breeding? Because the idiots who are out there indiscriminately breeding are also the ones who are not doing poor job on the training. There is altogether too much over breeding of dogs as it is.



  18. #38
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    I think breed bans are terrible, permits to own a dangerous dog after it has been deamed dangerous and has shown aggression to people, no problem

    I have a doberman, she is an absolute doll to me and my family, warry of stranges but not aggressive, just watchful

    however she is leash aggressive and acts very rude to other dogs that are not in her "pack" (she loves our Remy boy) but she is easily controlled with her prong collar, and we walk her at parks and around lakes and take her to the beach but NEVER to a dog park, that would be a disaster

    its not that hard if you are a watchful and good owner to make sure that you set your dog up to succede and always keep an eye out for a possible problem and as the owner of the dog with the "problem" it is your responsiblity to get out of the situation and do what is best for all



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miraya View Post
    It comes down to proper socialization and training, with any breed.
    In the case of hard wired behavior, behavior that has been selectively bred for over many, many generations, it does not come down to proper socialization and training. In the case of my German Shepherd Dog, that hard wired behavior is being tuned in to motion. For Pit Bulls, it is being dog aggressive.

    I think the most effective advocates for the Pit Bull are the ones who can take an honest look at the breed and acknowledge that dog aggression was a trait that was bred for, just like being super human friendly was a trait. Nobody wanted a dog that wouldn't fight gamely, but nobody wanted a dog that would redirect on human handlers, either. So many people mistake the dog's human friendliness and automatically equate that to being safe with other dogs. It doesn't work that way.

    You can train and socialize until the cows come home. For many of these dogs, that is not going to make any difference. That is the reality. The sad fact is that many of the people who would selectively breed that dog aggression out, while keeping the uber-human friendly trait in, are vastly outnumbered by the idiots who are breeding dogs now that would have been culled out in years past because of their human aggression.

    The "good" Pit Bulls are out there. The ones that are safe around other animals and fantastic with people of all ages. Really, the perfect family pet. But to imply that you can train and socialize something into or out of a dog that just is or isn't there genetically? In the long run, that does just as much harm to the dogs as the thugs and idiots that flock to the breed. I have heard people go on at great length about how a Lab needs to fetch, it is a hard wired behavior that has been selectively bred for over generations. And then in the next breath, that very same person will swear up and down that a Pit Bull can be trained and socialized into being a dog that is safe around other animals. Why is it that the relatively benign behavior of being crazy for fetch in a Lab is totally acceptable as a hard wired breed trait, but the less benign behavior of dog aggression in a Pit Bull isn't?

    I own a breed that is often on banned lists. I don't think the issue is so black and white that you can ban an entire breed and call it good. It really is the deed and not the breed. But...we also have to be honest about the traits that have been breed into our dogs.
    Sheilah


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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by chancellor2 View Post
    MistyBlue, I can't think of dogs more poorly bred than Michael Vick's dogs. They were trained to be fighters and just plain nasty.
    No, actually his dogs were very well bred. He had the money and he spent it on the best bloodlines, the best training. Just because they were being used for fighting does not mean they were poorly bred. Some of his puppies sold for thousands and thousands of dollars.

    I think the fact that they were so well bred was a saving grace for them. Well, that and the fact that it was so highly publicized. If that case had been Joe Blow from Kokomo, and everyone from Sports Illustrated to the NYT hadn't been covering it? All of those dogs would have been euthanized immediately.
    Sheilah



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