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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May. 10, 2013
    Posts
    1

    Angry Please help the carriage horses in Atlanta GA

    Hi all,
    Hate to do this here, TOTALLY new here...just trying to get some help for these horses

    I'm sure you all get enough requests for signatures on FB but, this project has virtually NO support and I know you all will help with this.

    Atlanta GA Carriage horses need help.

    FB page of the group trying to help
    https://www.facebook.com/AAHDC?fref=ts

    Petition
    http://www.change.org/petitions/dema...-in-atlanta-ga


    video (cant imbed it)
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=3&theater
    Last edited by Maximus; May. 24, 2013 at 12:57 PM.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul. 21, 2011
    Location
    Co
    Posts
    4,827

    Default

    Oh dear, here we go..

    There is a "search thread" function on COTH and you will find many threads on this subject if you search.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb. 16, 2012
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    561

    Default

    Dear COTH, I apologize for feeding it but an idea has occurred to me and I would like to share it. With that being said...

    Max I didn't read everything, I did however waste about an hour visiting your FB. Now most of the time I think of any kind of "activists" at total nut balls, but you seem pretty intelligent and open to some reasoning. I do not like horses in cities, but often times there is very very little difference in horses lives that live in rural settings or city ones, aside from their view. Many expensive competition horses are kept at places with miles of pasture that they are never turned out on because they may sustain an injury. so a city "barn" with no turn out doesn't necessarily mean bad care, in fact some horse may even thrive in a no turn out + lots of work situation if they have a metabolic disorder or the hay being trucked in is of better quality than in their pasture. Every creature is different you cannot assume that pastures for these horses will make their lives better. I think people would be better and healthier in the country too but we do ok in cities :P

    Now on to my original thought, If there are issues that you feel strongly about, instead of complaining and petitioning why not make an attempt to fix them? As an example, I see there are concerns about the horses not getting watered (valid concern) So why don't you fund-raise and talk to the city about having water troughs installed? Or automatic waters put on lamp posts, their pretty small and it seems like the horses spend a lot of time there. I'm sure it's not hard to get water in a city, but it may be pricy and their may be legalities. However it may be possible and it would do the horses more good than your complaining about the drivers. Food for thought.
    Last edited by Stushica; May. 10, 2013 at 06:33 PM. Reason: Grammer


    20 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep. 21, 2009
    Location
    Queens, NY
    Posts
    1,546

    Default

    Agree with much of what Stushica has said.

    I have zero first-hand knowledge of the Atlanta carriages, but have been following the photos and posts and FB pages about them online for about 2 years.

    I am not one to put great stock into moment-in-time photos, or even videos, as they never tell the whole story.

    That said, there were things that I saw (especially from one company in particular) that can be pretty much be stated as fact; broken/rigged and/or improperly fitted harness and some neglected feet and/or bad shoeing being the main issues to my eye. 90% of the horses depicted looked shiny, in good flesh, sound, and fit.

    I followed as the RARAs unleashed their online assault on this business, and saw also that there is a heavy dose of racism underlying their efforts. Not that racism was their impetus, but it was a very obvious undercurrent in both their view of the people who operate the carriages, and how they treated and spoke about them.

    The sight of these black men - some of them almost elderly - being stalked and haunted and jeered at by RARAs made me physically uncomfortable. The drivers tried their best remain calm on camera - and I know from personal experience how hard that it is.

    Now, anyone who knows me knows I am the very last person to ever pull the race card - I am about as far from "politically correct" as one can get. So I trust my instincts and observations on this.

    But I digress - anyway, after following this situation for sometime, I brought it to our Urban Horse group on FB. We brainstormed, and got 5 volunteers from 3 different states who were willing to go to Atlanta and offer mentoring services and as much good harness as we could round up.

    We all believe along the lines of The Brooke's outlook; that working horses and people should be kept together wherever possible, and that if there are issues to be addressed, you help them address them.

    Our planned intervention fell by the wayside, however; the company under scrutiny and attack from the RARAs closed. I have no idea what happened to the horses.

    BTW, about the OP: I was banned from that FB page after posting logical and germane questions and statements. Also, that is not their real page; they took it private, made another closed group, because they said they did not want those of us reading who were pro-carriage knowing their plans and strategies. They left this one up to get new members, who, after passing muster as toe-the-line individuals, get an invite to the closed group. Just an FYI.
    Last edited by michaleenflynn; May. 14, 2013 at 11:40 AM.
    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts


    23 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 19, 2010
    Posts
    417

    Default

    If you really are concerned about these horses then you need to partner with actual horse people - not with people that believe that no animal should work, ever, under any circumstances. The Brooke is opening an office in Kentucky (American Friends of the Brooke, www.thebrookeusa.org) and could be a great resource for you. In addition, open up your FB pages - banning those that have a different point of view is not helpful to your "cause" and it could actually bring real help to those horses that need it.
    Most people don't need a $35,000 horse. They need a $1,000 horse and $34,000 in lessons.

    "I don't have to be fair… . I'm an American With a Strong, Fact-Free Opinion." (stolen off Facebook)


    5 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct. 26, 2003
    Posts
    1,913

    Default

    Agreed. Censoring pages and deleting people who disagree with you mark you as a RARA, not a horsewoman.


    13 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct. 26, 2003
    Posts
    1,913

    Default

    Agreed. Censoring pages and deleting people who disagree with you mark you as a RARA, not a horsewoman.


    13 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep. 11, 2008
    Location
    Snohomish, WA
    Posts
    4,291

    Default

    and she(?) hasn't been back. Really.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun. 28, 2003
    Posts
    4,411

    Default How big is YOUR horse's stall?

    See... this is what I appreciate about the NYC commercial drivers. They don't just take it for granted everything is OK in another location. They check it out and try to help.

    As opposed to these folks who's answer is not to fix the problem, but to eliminate those animal's jobs entirely.

    Also good info to suggest working with Brooks, but obviously from the found comments on the site, working WITH someone to help make conditions better is NOT on the agenda.

    Does anyone else find it a bit scary that the Atlanta GA code mandates 200 sq ft of space per horse? I know it's probably talking about pens/paddocks etc, but obviously it is being interpreted as 200 sq ft in stall space... that's 10 x 20 or over 14 x 14 folks Is YOUR horse's stall that big?

    Atlanta, Georgia, Code of Ordinances > PART II - CODE OF ORDINANCES—GENERAL ORDINANCES - Chapter 18 - ANIMALS
    Sec. 18-39. - Keeping hoofed animals.
    Hoofed animals, such as horses, cows, goats, sheep and the like, may be kept within the city limits, subject to the following:
    (1) Housing and enclosures. All these animals must be provided with adequate housing, pens or enclosures. Floor space in such housing, pens or enclosures must have the following minima:
    a. Horses, mules, asses or cows, 200 square feet per animal over four months of age.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2003
    Location
    Deep South
    Posts
    14,937

    Default

    200 sq ft is rather large. I guess all us Georgia horseowners are criminals then. Did the OP actually describe any hardships these horses are having to endure ?
    ... _. ._ .._. .._


    5 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul. 21, 2011
    Location
    Co
    Posts
    4,827

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by michaleenflynn View Post
    Agree with much of what Stushica has said.

    I have zero first-hand knowledge of the Atlanta carriages, but have been following the photos and posts and FB pages about them online for about 2 years.

    I am not one to put great stock into moment-in-time photos, or even videos, as they never tell the whole story.

    That said, there were things that I saw (especially from one company in particular) that can be pretty much be stated as fact; broken/rigged and/or improperly fitted harness and some neglected feet and/or bad shoeing being the main issues to my eye. 90% of the horses depicted looked shiny, in good flesh, sound, and fit.

    I followed as the RARAs unleashed their online assault on this business, and saw also that there is a heavy dose of racism underlying their efforts. Not that racism was their impetus, but it was a very obvious undercurrent in both their view of the people who operate the carriages, and how they treated and spoke about them.

    The sight of these black men - some of them almost elderly - being stalked and haunted and jeered at by RARAs made me physically uncomfortable. The drivers tried their best remain calm on camera - and I know from personal experience how hard that it is.

    Now, anyone who knows me knows I am the very last person to ever pull the race card - I am about as far from "politically correct" as one can get. So I trust my instincts and observations on this.

    But I digress - anyway, after following this situation for sometime, I brought it to our Urban Horse group on FB. We brainstormed, and got 5 volunteers from 3 different states who were willing to go to Atlanta and offer mentoring services and as much good harness as we could round up.

    We all believe along the lines of The Brooke's outlook; that working horses and people should be kept together wherever possible, and that if there are issues to be addressed, you help them address them.

    Our planned intervention fell by the wayside, however; the company under scrutiny and attack from the RARAs closed. I have no idea what happened to the horses.

    BTW, about the OP: I was banned from that FB page after posting logical and germane questions and statements. Also, that is not their real page; they took it private, made another closed group, because they said they did not want those of us reading who were pro-carriage knowing their plans and strategies. They left this one up to get new members, who, after passing muster as toe-the-line individuals, get an invite to the closed group. Just an FYI.
    Well done you! I'm sorry that your efforts to help educate came to naught, but I applaud the effort.

    Many years ago I noticed a lame carriage horse in New Orleans. Just the one, the others looked quite well. It was disturbing and that particular situation needed to be addressed. My thought, was just that. Not a reactionary "Oh no shut down the industry"!

    It's good that you offer knowledgeable help to your fellow carriage people, instead of the meaningless criticism of the RARA's that have no working experience with horses and/or an obvious agenda.

    If there are problems then they need to be addressed case by case, as is every other equine welfare issue that does not involve inherent cruelty.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul. 15, 2003
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    4,343

    Default

    Curious that the original poster has not been back. I checked out the FB page and a lot of the photos are really non-issues that appear to be "issues" thought up by people that don't know horses ( farrier work they didn't understand, slight nasal discharges in springtime, a horse with a ding on his leg....a horse playing with a food pan seemed to get everybody upset).

    The issues did not appear that bad. I saw a couple of photos of horses with shelly hoof walls and some harness rubs on winter coats. There were a lot of photos of dirty looking harness and diaper bags held on with baling twine....image issues more than harmful to the horse.

    Horses were being housed in a converted warehouse called (the Icehouse) and lived in a dirt paddock under what looks like an expressway and the place was cluttered.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13

    Default

    this is what really happens in Atlanta

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=aSY7rXmZS8U


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul. 21, 2011
    Location
    Co
    Posts
    4,827

    Default

    I see people who don't seem to know that it could be detrimental to give a horse that has been working a full bucket of water. I see people who have no idea if the horse has been given water or not before they arrived.

    The horse seems to be the type that was quite prevalent back in the day, such as the milk or beer wagon horse who knew his rounds and stopped and stayed until his driver came back. Perhaps it is best not to leave the horse unattended in this day and age, because of traffic concerns and because ignorant do gooders could give it a big bucket of water or otherwise interfere when it would be harmful to the horse.

    The driver probably stopped to take a quick pee and then was confronted by women freaking out because the horse was blowing. Jeeze..


    9 members found this post helpful.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov. 18, 2010
    Location
    california
    Posts
    4,732

    Default

    Well, you must be new here since all carriage horse (I believe we have only had pro-carriage horse threads by Michaleenflynn )threads are posted in Off Course.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul. 21, 2011
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    Co
    Posts
    4,827

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Well, you must be new here since all carriage horse (I believe we have only had pro-carriage horse threads by Michaleenflynn )threads are posted in Off Course.
    As you can see, it was this person's first post..


    2 members found this post helpful.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov. 18, 2010
    Location
    california
    Posts
    4,732

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post
    As you can see, it was this person's first post..
    Hence the direction to "Off Course"....Since even Michaleenflynn knows to post on a thread that gets more traffic....



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2002
    Posts
    1,214

    Default

    [QUOTE=ElizabethNYC;7019098]this is what really happens in Atlanta

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=aSY7rXmZS8U[/QUOTE
    You're not going to get too many actual horse owners fired up because a horse has gotten a little exercise. I did enjoy the hysterical shrieking to give poor horsie some water, after it had just turned its nose up when offered water. Thank you for this evidence of your followers' stupidity.
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns



    9 members found this post helpful.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct. 26, 2003
    Posts
    1,913

    Default

    Now we've got Stalin posting, so-called because she believes in seizing private property and censoring and banning all those who disagree with her.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov. 18, 2010
    Location
    california
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    4,732

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Now we've got Stalin posting, so-called because she believes in seizing private property and censoring and banning all those who disagree with her.
    Why start name calling ? If you really think you have the better argument why would you start the name calling ? Unless that is all you have going for the pro-carriage cause....


    1 members found this post helpful.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Dec. 19, 2005
    Location
    Some where in the middle of nowhere.
    Posts
    3,691

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Why start name calling ? If you really think you have the better argument why would you start the name calling ? Unless that is all you have going for the pro-carriage cause....
    Since you don't drive horses for pleasure or commercial one just has to wonder why you are riffling through and posting in the driving forums SV..other then the obvious?
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


    1 members found this post helpful.

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