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  1. #121
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    Juvenile is 2-3.

    It is not a matter of repeated stressors on the bones but rather the conformation of many young horses, track conditions, and sheer crappy luck. Current US rate is 2 out of 1,000 starts.

    You could choose to go with your brand of logic, or you could choose to go with the scientific and veterinary studies. My bet is on the latter - no pun intended.

    A horse with a lotta bone, as a 7 year old is bound to be, is no more subject to a breakdown than my horses galloping around the pasture - which does indeed happen. Tendon loading is more in a jumping horse than a galloping horse.

    But hey, you know, logic and hearsay - way better than science and experience.


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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Glad you could have a chuckle but if you actually read for comprehension you might have understood that the concept was to retire a racing TB BEFORE they break down. But hey, by your logic and onegraypony's, cancer is cured since some people actually recover from cancer. The argument that out of hundreds of thousands of TBs racing maybe 25-20 race into their teens with no disabling injuries, so therefore racing is a completely sustainable career for all TBs. So glad that I have been taught logical arguments by others that actually make some sense. Also, "very few breakdown" that would depend on age and time at the track, but gee delusional thinking is so much better when you can chuckle reality away...

    That is exactly the point I'm trying to make, they ARE retired before they break down. They CAN retire or be sold as a pleasure horse without having broken down, as is the case with most retirees of any discipline. Lack of funds seems to be among the leading causes for owners to throw in the towel these days.

    "Pat the horse; kick yourself" - Carl Hester


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  3. #123
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    They aren't a ticking time bomb with legs waiting to go off.

    I'd guess that rest or the lack thereof, contributes as the biggest factor, since the bone doesn't have a chance to remodel. Bone, as I'm sure you all know, is fluid and continues to change with environmental pressures (which I find to be *so stinking cool!!!*)



  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelico View Post
    That is exactly the point I'm trying to make, they ARE retired before they break down. They CAN retire or be sold as a pleasure horse without having broken down, as is the case with most retirees of any discipline. Lack of funds seems to be among the leading causes for owners to throw in the towel these days.
    And the point some of us are trying to make is that this mare WAS retired after quite a few starts to be a pleasure horse, but then her TB-ignorant owner tossed her right back into the lowest levels of racing. Someone else felt she was raced out, and there was probably a reason.


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  5. #125
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    Unless someone knows the real reason the previous owners retired her, the whole argument is moot.
    Different Times Equestrian Ventures at Hidden Spring Ranch
    www.DifferentTimesEquestrianVentures.com


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  6. #126
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    If that's what you were trying to get across, I apologize that I missed it.

    I'm not sure that the mare was "retired" from the track to begin with. Again, if you read the OP it sounds like she picked up a mare who was in trouble. That could mean that the original trainer couldn't pay their debts or was retiring themselves and the mare was about to be sent to auction.

    I doubt, the way the COTH pile-on of the original owner went, that we will ever know what those circumstances were.


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  7. #127
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    Sep. 21, 2000
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    Just FYI:

    This year's MAryland Hunt Cup- 4 miles, 22 big fences. Most challenging Timber race in the world.
    2 9 year olds ( the babies)
    2 10 YO
    3 12 YO
    3 13 YO
    2 14 YO ( includes the winner)

    Virginia Gold Cup 4 miles, not such a premium on jumping;
    1 6YO
    3 7 yo (incl the winner)
    1 8 YO
    2 9 YO
    1 10 YO

    The winner of the Grand National ( National Velvet's race)this year was 11
    Look at the international level 3 day eventers, they're even older.

    Before you start suggesting that every 7 YO is over the hill, look at the ages of TB's succeeding in careers that require training and experience. While I agree that a horse who has been retired from the track due to injury or slowness probably shouldn't be sent back into flat racing, there are plenty of older TB's succeeding in stressful fields.
    madeline
    * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis


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  8. #128
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    My OTTB retired at 7 after 4 years on the NY circuit - Belmont, Aqueduct, Saratoga. Fortunately his trainer, a highly respected horseman, advised the partnership manager that at that point he would refuse to continue training him for that purpose. (Eventually partnership owner disagreed with him on another horse, sought out another trainer, and other horse broke down within 4 months with new trainer ).

    Trainer's words to me when taking the horse - he should be good for almost anything - he even was thinking out loud about whether or not he'd be a good steeplechaser. That was not in my option book since I don't have the funds and am in the wrong location, but I asked the trainer, really?

    His words to me - flat racing is the hardest thing on a horse. Training requiring galloping every day on a mile oval, and the percussion that is created on a horse's hooves and legs on those surfaces is very difficult. It's just too much wear and tear after awhile.

    Steeplechasing? The horse will be out in a pasture often enough, and the surfaces are nothing compared to the flat tracks.

    So thinking eventing is tougher than racing? Nope, I wouldn't go there...


    But then again, in reference to the subject horse in the field - there are situations where a horse does need a year or so off, and could be fine again for racing, but the original owner can't/won't pay the board. But one would hope if returning, the horse is gone over with a fine tooth comb, and worked well ahead of time to make sure they're safe to return. Doesn't sound like this is that kind of case, though...
    How can there be so many currents in such a little puddle?
    National Velvet


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  9. #129
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    They don't gallop every day. Some trainers give them a day off. Perhaps that is the reason that horse broke down if that guy gallops his horses every day


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  10. #130
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    No, 2nd horse broke down because he needed an extended time off for an injury, the managing partner wanted to keep him running because he couldn't pay bills, and found a trainer who told him he could do it (who, by the way, had several break down at Belmont the last 2 years). "That guy" has had 0 breakdowns, works his sound horses regularly, and doesn't any he has any inkling they're not 100%. Knows every hair of every horse he trains.
    How can there be so many currents in such a little puddle?
    National Velvet



  11. #131
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    Oct. 14, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by spotted draft x filly View Post
    They don't gallop every day. Some trainers give them a day off. Perhaps that is the reason that horse broke down if that guy gallops his horses every day
    Maybe a race horse doesn't gallop every day - that is the trainers decision. Some trainers train too much, some too little and others just right. But no trainer can see into the crystal ball of percussion impact on a given race horse and break downs. Its a best guess scenario.

    Gallop regimen doesn't doesn't change the fact that flat racing is the hardest thing on a horses legs. The race itself is very stressful too.


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  12. #132
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    I found statistics last night that said the opposite - that flat had fewer breakdowns than timber or steeplechases, but I'm going to have to hunt for it again, because I can't find it now.

    They have also blamed the prevalence of breeding for the 6f race as opposed to the longer races. And so many of those races are on turf.

    That does not make it a poor home, though, for a horse. Again - horses don't plan for the future, and if you think that they do, then humane euthanasia isn't quite so humane. Horses live in the moment, and generally they are well fed and well treated as working animals at the track.

    I've seen a lot of "track rescues" and I know that in many cases the horses would have been far far better off at the track. Not all, sure, but that's why I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that the mare is in need of any kind of rescuing. I wanted to rescue the very thin OTTB that was being ridden by a 4H teen that I saw the other day...and they HAD a trainer.


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  13. #133
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    As far as breakdowns - aren't the quarter horse sprints really high?

    Getting solid injury and fatality statistics on any sport is tough -- because data on all injuries is not collected. Horses that are retired unsound (pasture puff) or that break down in training are not counted. That includes dressage, reining, H/J, etc. It would be really interesting to see those numbers - but impossible to collect if training related.



  14. #134
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    I'd like to see some statistics on bush track breakdowns. Bet ya we can't find those. And, yeah, I agree that some racing homes are better than some non-racing homes. But, come on, did you read the OP and the follow up? You honestly think this is a good racing home and that this mare isn't in the racing home equivalent of that 4-H horse you saw the other day?



  15. #135
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    Well, does depend on the bit you use!
    How can there be so many currents in such a little puddle?
    National Velvet


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  16. #136
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    Apr. 23, 2004
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    What do you mean? Charts and everything-

    http://www.equibase.com/static/chart...C052513USA.pdf

    Way more information than you will ever find out about someone's training level schooling show dressage horse. (And I can't tell you how many times I've seen oblivious owners riding arthritic lame versions of that--sometimes things are all a matter of perspective)

    Seriously if it weren't Montana and racing, would some of you be this sniffy?

    Quote Originally Posted by FineAlready View Post
    I'd like to see some statistics on bush track breakdowns. Bet ya we can't find those. And, yeah, I agree that some racing homes are better than some non-racing homes. But, come on, did you read the OP and the follow up? You honestly think this is a good racing home and that this mare isn't in the racing home equivalent of that 4-H horse you saw the other day?


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  17. #137
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    What you provided is not statistics on bush track breakdowns. Additionally, you do know that there are many bush tracks that are not even operated legally and have no statistics available at all? Miles City actually does sound like it is a step up from a "typical" bush track. Google Louisiana bush track racing. Watch some YouTube videos. Then tell me if you think there are a lot of statistics out there regarding those "tracks."

    And the fact that this horse is in Montana does not impact how I feel about the situation one way or another. The horse could be in Illinois and I would feel the same way.



  18. #138
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    The horse is with a trainer, FineAlready, racing under her owner. That trainer and jockey have a vested interest in keeping this mare sound and healthy. Are you saying that the OP is now going to starve her? That's a heck of an assumption from a very brief post. The OP didn't sound like an inexperienced horse owner, but rather like someone who didn't know TBs, so she/he got someone involved who did. That someone happens to be a race trainer.

    Found the stats:
    "At present overall about 2 in every thousand runners are fatalities. Flat and All Weather racing accounts for around 0.6 fatalities of every thousand runners, Jump racing accounts for just over 4 fatalities of every thousand runners. "

    From http://www.britishhorseracing.com/re...fatalities.asp

    Now, that is British statistics and hence why I didn't quote it last night.



  19. #139
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    And FineAlready - those were the race results *from* Miles City. A quick google search reveals that the owner is from Miles City, so we're not talking about sending the mare off on some bush track circuit.



  20. #140
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    Here's some info about Miles City racing. http://m.billingsgazette.com/sports/...ile_touch=true

    Sorry for the short posts but I'm on my phone :-)



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