The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 26
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
    Posts
    18,521

    Default Need thoughts about horse with issues

    I sent a 7 1/2 year old gelding back in December to be started. He was spoiled and had had very little discipline and no rigorous work at all. Because he had a history of peculiar injuries and health problems, I was concerned about ulcers cropping back up again. So I sent him with 50 sachets of blue pop rocks, 100 pounds of alfalfa pellets, and a canister of uniprim.

    For the first 50 or so days, he was almost perfect. Since then he's had good days and bad days. Some days like yesterday, he is perfect; some days he's a horse's ass. He'll just suddenly decide that he will fight things that he has done before a hundred times without resistance. 6 days a week he'll accept the saddle with no complaint; the seventh he'll decide to buck when the girth is tightened.

    I went to see him for the first time since December today, and he was not docile. He didn't do anything bad, but you could tell that he was not happy. Trainer and I talked a lot about what might be going on in his head. Either his mind is cracked or there is some problem going on that needs to be fixed. I had thought about trying him on Quiessence to see if the magnesium might mellow him out.

    It wasn't until the very end of the day that the subject of pop rocks came up. When they ran out, they just ran out. Same with the alfalfa pellets. So from going from ulcer prevention to nothing was sudden.

    Is it possible that he has his bad days because he's got ulcers again? The fact that he was perfect while getting the pop rocks to unpredictable without has got me wondering if I need to put him back on a prevention regime--or would it be too late and a healing regime is now what's called for.

    Would you start the pop rocks back up AND add the Quiessence?

    He also needs his teeth done badly, and trainer is going to set up a vet visit, but he's eating really well.

    Any thoughts? Is going off the pop rocks cold turkey likely to cause rebound acid production and new ulcers?
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar. 24, 2010
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    5,925

    Default

    It sounds very likely to me the ulcers are back. I don't know if from rebound, or just from the situation overall.

    I don't know if I would try them simultaneously, but I would try magnesium as well. I'm fairly convinced my TB had minor levels of tying up (only truly tied up once as diagnosed by a vet in unusual circumstances involving panick and a lot of running, but that was enough to convince me there was an issue), and he was CRANKY every time he had a day off, because riding helped loosen his muscles. Studies have shown Mg to help with that in TBs and there aren't tests (that I could find anywhere) for tying up in TBs. There was an almost instant and very clear change in the feel of his body under me and his reaction to days off as soon as I started him on Mg.
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan. 28, 2003
    Location
    Hollywood, but not the one where they have the Oscars!
    Posts
    7,135

    Default

    I had one do that, treated it for epm and she is so much happier now
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
    Posts
    18,521

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mroades View Post
    I had one do that, treated it for epm and she is so much happier now
    Have they got a reliable test for epm yet?
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2001
    Location
    Fort Collins, CO
    Posts
    16,396

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Have they got a reliable test for epm yet?
    Pretty sure you still need a spinal tap for 100% sure, but the IFAT blood test is better than the previous version, IIRC.

    We used the IFAT on Blush when she was going through her neck stuff and were able to rule out EPM. Worth a shot for Mr Bud.

    Also think ruling out anything tick-borne would be advised, if you've got that in your area.

    And perhaps even Vit E/Selenium?



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan. 28, 2003
    Location
    Hollywood, but not the one where they have the Oscars!
    Posts
    7,135

    Default

    I used the test from Pathogenes. I didnt think anyone did a spinal tap anymore. This horse had one of the three antibodies very very high, we did the Oroquin, and she is back to her normal self. She had become thin-ish, very spooky, and cranky. Ulcer meds did not help. I do not live in an area where scoping, spinal taps, etc are easliy accessible, so often we treat first.
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar. 15, 2007
    Location
    (throw dart at map) NC!
    Posts
    4,678

    Default

    If the horse had ulcers that were due to helicobactor pylori or infected by it, rather than just pH-related ulcerations of the stomach lining, then the poprocks may have helped but not cured the situation, which would have returned after cessation of meds and the wonderful buffer that is alfalfa. Antibiotics may be in order. Or, you horse may have needed a half-dose for a while (my horse was perscribed a dose for 28 days then a half-dose for 28 days). 2 1/2 months of almost perfect behavior only to have cranky attitude crop up when seemingly nothing has changed except for cessation of poprocks and alfalfa (is this true?) makes me think there's an underlying health issue. On the flip side, has anything else changed randomly? (i.e. a dog randomly sleeps under his trough and he hates it, wildlife sleep by his stall and set him off, other horses scrap for position in the herd, part time workers are rough with the horses or do things they shouldn't like sit on them in the stalls?)? I've known some horses very attuned to things like this who have random bad days from the human perspective but due to very specific criteria from horse perspective.
    Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2001
    Location
    Fort Collins, CO
    Posts
    16,396

    Default

    Is there ANY proof that H pylori actually infects horses? Last time I reviewed the literature (admittedly several years ago) there was ZERO evidence that H pylori was even FOUND in horses, much less that it caused gastric ulcers in equines. I would love to see any papers demonstrating that horses do get it, that it causes ulcers and it's fixed by antibiotics....


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
    Posts
    18,521

    Default

    Just remembered one odd thing. This is a horse with a broken tooth root that will eventually cause problems, but hasn't yet as far as I know. He's got at least one enlarged lymph node in his throat which I discovered today. Forgot to mention it to the trainer. I didn't ask if they had ever taken his temperature and won't be able to unless I call early tomorrow. Trainer will be off premises for ten days starting at noon tomorrow.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar. 15, 2007
    Location
    (throw dart at map) NC!
    Posts
    4,678

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Simkie View Post
    Is there ANY proof that H pylori actually infects horses? Last time I reviewed the literature (admittedly several years ago) there was ZERO evidence that H pylori was even FOUND in horses, much less that it caused gastric ulcers in equines. I would love to see any papers demonstrating that horses do get it, that it causes ulcers and it's fixed by antibiotics....
    I don't know, simkie, but I'll look through Pubmed. The vet who scoped my horse for ulcers is a certified equine internist and she mentioned this as a possibility to me. She said she had some horses who had visual ulcers that did not respond to omeprazole (she videotapes and documents the position of the ulcers) but did respond to follow-up antibiotics targeted to hit h. pylori. That's why she encourages follow-up endoscopy, especially in horses that don't appear to show improvement. She also has seen some horses that had flare-ups after abruptly stopping a 28 day treatment, which is why she prescribes a follow-up half-dose treatment. So, I don't know, but now I'm curious...
    Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb. 28, 2008
    Posts
    4,006

    Default

    Anytime I read a struggle like the one you are going through I feel compelled to share my story.

    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    7 1/2 year old gelding ... spoiled and had had very little discipline and no rigorous work at all... peculiar injuries and health problems ... ulcers... good days and bad days... Some days he is perfect; some days he's a horse's ass. He'll just suddenly decide that he will fight things that he has done before a hundred times without resistance. 6 days a week he'll accept the saddle with no complaint; the seventh he'll decide to buck when the girth is tightened.... not docile. He didn't do anything bad, but you could tell that he was not happy... Either his mind is cracked or there is some problem going on that needs to be fixed
    So much of your post resonated with me that I opted just to quote the bits that I said about my own horse.

    I bought a horse as a training project that had a history of major riding issues, very little work because of it, and was basically green broke at age 7. I tried for 3 years to train the horse to be a safe riding mount. While we had just enough good days to keep me encouraged to keep going, much of those 3 years are nearly verbatim to your words above.

    More often than not, I felt as if I were living the movie Groundhog Day. We'd work for days on X issue, and he'd be doing great 3 days in a row and on the 4th it was like he had never been trained at all.

    My desperation led me here to CoTH actually, searching for ideas. I addressed ulcers, teeth, saddle fit, chiro, living environment, feet, diet, supplements like MagOx, Se, and on and on. Everything had a positive effect on him, and everytime I felt "ah, now we've got it!". But as many minor issues as I fixed, it never solved what was becoming clearer as a bigger underlying issue.

    He had gone from overly violent, to basically a good boy but with a hefty dose of dirty behavior, spooky, very resistant, unable to keep his lessons, and just never really a happy camper. Willing to switch to any discipline he'd might enjoy I tried everything with him and he was never really enthused about his work. Once in a while he was, but it was fleeting at best.

    I had the horse vetted NUMEROUS times. I sent chiros and acupuncturists on missions to "find something, please!", turning up nothing. The horse appeared sound as a dollar from every possible angle.

    I started getting to the point where I was literally doubting my sanity. I wondered if I had become the person who makes chronic excuses for their horse. I completely lost my confidence in the process, being grateful I wasn't hurt most of our rides and becoming more and more of a cagy, fetal-position rider dreading his dirty sneaky tricks.

    All along, the horse never acted as if he were in pain, he was just sour, surly, dirty, resistant. More and more I was wondering if he had simply just gotten my number in a big way.

    The day he sent me to the ER I decided I needed to get to the bottom of this. I had my vet out and asked her to xray his back, I was sure he had KS or something. Turns out he has broken withers.

    He's now a driving horse and has made a complete 360° in his attitude and trainability. He is eager and happy to work, bold to new challenges, a loving affectionate little boy to be around, and is so easily trained I swear he studies his notes.

    Early on in my owning him, when I first had the nagging feeling something was really wrong, I had asked about possibly xraying his back, etc., but all of my friends convinced me no. His behavior was clearly training, he never acted sore or cold backed, and had no problem rolling with all 4 in the air grinding his withers into the dirt. He never acted like a horse in pain. And since he responded favorably to all the efforts I made, ulcers, etc, I kept thinking he "just needed time to heal", etc.

    I was so wrong, and I SO regret not following my gut feeling early on and having him xrayed, it would have literally saved years of grief and thousands $$ on saddles, pads, etc.

    Because our issue was so insidious in how it presented, as I said earlier I always feel compelled to share our story when I read someone else's struggle that I frankly was writing about myself a few years ago.

    Good luck
    Worry is the biggest enemy of the present. It steals your joy and keeps you very busy doing absolutely nothing at all... it’s like using your imagination to create things you don’t want.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
    Location
    West Coast of Michigan
    Posts
    36,321

    Default

    Certainly withdrawing full-dose omeprazole suddenly can cause tremendous rebound hypersecretion of acid and can send things back in the wrong direction in an ulcer-prone horse. Used longer than a few weeks, this drug should always be WEANED.

    H. pylori has not yet been conclusively shown to be an issue in horses WRT ulcers. Horse =/= human.

    FWIW, my anxious, nervy horse turns out to be EXTREMELY sensitive to even small amounts of alfalfa and the misguided attempts we've made to keep his stomach "happy" by giving it to him have backfired horribly. He can't even get grain that has alfalfa products in it. Since removing it from his diet completely he's like a different horse--still hot, but no longer seeing dead people.
    Click here before you buy.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
    Posts
    18,521

    Default

    I forgot to mention that his coat is very dull. There is no shine at all. This is the first time in his whole life that I've ever seen him with a dull coat.

    I just talked to a vet who has treated him before, told him all my concerns--tooth, ulcers, etc.--, and he suggested getting Budzoid back, starting ulcer treatment, and just letting him have time "to be a horse".
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug. 26, 2008
    Posts
    1,763

    Default

    You mentioned two things about his teeth that make me think before you even add the ulcer stuff back, you ought to have his teeth looked at and give him a week or so to recover (be a horse.)

    Try again, THEN see if he doesn't improve. A bad tooth might be preventing him from chewing properly, to the point where his digestion might be affected, he may be nursing some mouth pain or even the start of a jaw abcess or infection.

    I think that since he was good on the ulcer stuff, but bad off it...it makes a lot of sense to just put it back in...but then you added the information about his teeth, so I'd just clear that up before restarting the ulcer stuff again.

    YMMV.
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun. 9, 2001
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada, North America, Earth
    Posts
    1,078

    Default

    Just a thought - but I have heard that when girthiness is a factor - it's usually hind gut ulcers rather than stomach ulcers as it's actually the colon that lies above the girth. Has the horse been on antibiotics or NSAIDs?



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan. 28, 2003
    Location
    Hollywood, but not the one where they have the Oscars!
    Posts
    7,135

    Default

    our mare also had a dull coat...now shiny as a new penny
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar. 15, 2007
    Location
    (throw dart at map) NC!
    Posts
    4,678

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Simkie View Post
    Is there ANY proof that H pylori actually infects horses? Last time I reviewed the literature (admittedly several years ago) there was ZERO evidence that H pylori was even FOUND in horses, much less that it caused gastric ulcers in equines. I would love to see any papers demonstrating that horses do get it, that it causes ulcers and it's fixed by antibiotics....
    Well, there are very few papers even examining the subject at all. But Helicobactor and even H. pylori have been found in the stomachs of horses with ulcers.http://vri.cz/docs/vetmed/54-12-577.pdf, http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/ava...152004-171715/, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18619743. Other studies didn't find any Helicobactor spp. in horses testing positive for ulcers. Most studies seem to biopsy cadavers - controlled studies don't appear to exist. It seems clear that ulcer pathogenesis in horses is not well understood. It also seems clear that some ulcers in horses that don't respond to gastroguard respond to antibiotics. The most reasonable explanation is that the antibiotics target a bacteria residing in/perpetuating lesions.
    Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
    Posts
    18,521

    Default

    I just talked to a horse person who is also a human doctor. She thinks I should have a thyroid test done because of the dull coat and behavior. Says Bud's symptoms in humans would definitely be grounds to have his thyroid checked.

    She also talked to some Texas Quarter horse people who use Lavender Oil in water for its effects on behavior. Anyone heard of this? It would be like aromatherapy in humans. Sounds like witchcraft to me, but what do I know?
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2001
    Location
    Fort Collins, CO
    Posts
    16,396

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    I just talked to a horse person who is also a human doctor. She thinks I should have a thyroid test done because of the dull coat and behavior. Says Bud's symptoms in humans would definitely be grounds to have his thyroid checked.

    She also talked to some Texas Quarter horse people who use Lavender Oil in water for its effects on behavior. Anyone heard of this? It would be like aromatherapy in humans. Sounds like witchcraft to me, but what do I know?
    I'd chase down the things you KNOW he has problems with first. Ulcer, hindgut, potential infectious stuff (although no harm in throwing in a thyroid test in there) and potential hay/grain quality before going after zebras.

    I don't think thyroid problems are really seen in equines, barring using Thyro-L in cushings-type horses that either need help with weight loss or might be hypothyroid?



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec. 9, 2012
    Posts
    210

    Default

    On top of any medical things, I think there are ground for some behavioral background checks. You said saddled on the seventh day.. Is he a horse that just can't do work every single day? My mare absolutely gets sour if I work her every day without a break. She needs a day off and a light day, without a doubt. I've played with the schedule and tested this theory, and I swear on my life that she is a happier animal with a day off.

    Could he be mentally burned out? Full training is a lot for any horse, and at his age it might be harder for him to accept this new lifestyle after not doing much



Similar Threads

  1. Ongoing fetlock arthritis issues... thoughts?
    By cheerio280 in forum Horse Care
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: Feb. 23, 2013, 09:49 PM
  2. Options for an IR horse with SI issues?
    By grayarabpony in forum Horse Care
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: Jun. 26, 2012, 07:30 AM
  3. My HORSE and his mental issues
    By Crooked Horse in forum Off Course
    Replies: 102
    Last Post: Jun. 13, 2012, 09:16 AM
  4. horse issues
    By shellesis in forum Horse Care
    Replies: 85
    Last Post: Nov. 27, 2008, 01:06 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •