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  1. #1
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    Default Snotty nose in weanling/yearling (with no other symptoms): allergies?

    My filly has had a nasal discharge for about 4-6 weeks now, it crusts over, and I clean out her nostrils 3 times a week (whenever I'm out there.) It's not clear (and it has some viscosity), but it's also not yellow...

    The BM (who has cared for hundreds of foals over decades) is convinced that it's "just allergies", but I asked her to have the vet "just check her out" when she's there for other routine stuff--which will probably be later this week.

    Her temp has been normal when checked, every time; her coat is glossy, she's eating well and has great energy.

    She does occasionally cough (again, could be a symptom of spring allergies), but not after exertion. She had her first round of spring shots about 3 weeks ago (had the runny nose prior to this), and then the second round yesterday--so doubtful it's connected to that.

    Should I be concerned?
    "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

    "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")



  2. #2
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    Default

    When was she last dewormed?
    Equine Web Design http://www.tbconnect.net | Kingsgate Stud home of Legal Jousting (IRE)



  3. #3
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    Default

    I would be interested to also hear some ideas.

    I too have a yearling that before his third 5 way shot had a runny nose for 2 months!

    Vet said to give him the shot anyway.

    Gave it to him, he was wormed about a month ago and I just noticed a snotty nose again!

    It's been about 2 mo ths since the last runny nose.

    No fever and not yellow snot, but thick and clear with a little tinge of white.

    Wonder if allergies can cause this. We have a lot of blooms this year because of our odd rain this year.



  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by K~2 View Post
    When was she last dewormed?
    She has been de-wormed regularly; last time was in late March?, I should check...Would this factor in??
    "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

    "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samotis View Post
    I would be interested to also hear some ideas.

    I too have a yearling that before his third 5 way shot had a runny nose for 2 months!

    Vet said to give him the shot anyway.

    Gave it to him, he was wormed about a month ago and I just noticed a snotty nose again!

    It's been about 2 mo ths since the last runny nose.

    No fever and not yellow snot, but thick and clear with a little tinge of white.

    Wonder if allergies can cause this. We have a lot of blooms this year because of our odd rain this year.

    This sounds like my filly's "nasal discharge"--which started before everything bloomed! (we had an ENDLESS winter , lasting through the entire month of March and into April--everything was dormant "to the naked eye", at least.)
    "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

    "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")



  6. #6
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    Default

    Our Equine Dentist told us that when they are erupting molars and popping caps, that they sometimes end up with snotty noses, so other symptoms.


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  7. #7
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    The most common cause for low grade cough and runny nose in foals plus 70 days, weanlings and youngsters under 18 months of age is Round Worm (Ascaris). Even a low grade presence can cause the symptoms and have yet to have seen a rise in temperature. Low Grade burden doesnlt often manifest in lethargy either so its difficult to spot a change in general health other than the cough and runny nose.

    Regular woming with Ivermectin is the most practiced treatment in youngstock. However round worm has developed resistance to Ivermectin and Moxidectin. This has become a major issue in recent years with the intoduction of products such as Equimax that have become favourable for the treatment of tapeworm which many now use to replace the traditional treatment of a double dose of Pyrantel against tape twice yearly in the autumn and spring. Equimax remains efficent against tapeworm, however the second chemical is Ivermectin, which ascarids are now proven to be resistant to.

    The most efficient treatment to date against roundworm with no found resistance is a double dose of the chemical Pryantel. Don't know which brands are avalable in the US but in the UK it's Embotape or Strongid P.

    The low grade cough is caused by the larvae that are transmitted into the lungs and nasal airways via the blood stream following ingestion of the eggs found on pasture. The eggs migrate into the lungs and airways through the bloodstream and mature into larvae, the larvae are coughed up into the airways and are then swallowed and enter the digestive system where they mature and reasch juvenille stage at aprox 40 days and then become reproductive adults at around 70 days. - A single female can produce 200,000 eggs daily which are then shed onto the pasture and so the cycle continues.

    The problem with ascarids is that worming doesn't treat the larvae and eggs whilst in the airways ad bloodstream so it's a real problem breaking the cycle, what it does do though is prevent juvelilles reaching maturity and becoming reproductive adults. So even if treatment is given there are timeframes that the cycle can't be broken even if treated. Hence the reason its often given every four weeks to prevent the juveneilles reaching maturity.

    The other problem with Ascarids is unlike redworm and tape worm Ascarid eggs can lay dormant on pasture for up to ten years and unlike red worm and tape worm aren't killed off by extreme temperature, sun baking or freezing. :-/

    You could have a dung sample taken, any positive result even a low count means that there is a reproductive adult and this can quickly escalte into severe burden given that the eggs and larvae can't be killed off.

    The good news is that after 18 months of age horses generally develop natural imunity and becomes much less of a problem unless of course the presence on pasture is excessively high and repetitive infection occurs.


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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by L&L View Post
    The most common cause for low grade cough and runny nose in foals plus 70 days, weanlings and youngsters under 18 months of age is Round Worm (Ascaris). Even a low grade presence can cause the symptoms and have yet to have seen a rise in temperature. Low Grade burden doesnlt often manifest in lethargy either so its difficult to spot a change in general health other than the cough and runny nose.

    Regular woming with Ivermectin is the most practiced treatment in youngstock. However round worm has developed resistance to Ivermectin and Moxidectin. This has become a major issue in recent years with the intoduction of products such as Equimax that have become favourable for the treatment of tapeworm which many now use to replace the traditional treatment of a double dose of Pyrantel against tape twice yearly in the autumn and spring. Equimax remains efficent against tapeworm, however the second chemical is Ivermectin, which ascarids are now proven to be resistant to.

    The most efficient treatment to date against roundworm with no found resistance is a double dose of the chemical Pryantel. Don't know which brands are avalable in the US but in the UK it's Embotape or Strongid P.

    The low grade cough is caused by the larvae that are transmitted into the lungs and nasal airways via the blood stream following ingestion of the eggs found on pasture. The eggs migrate into the lungs and airways through the bloodstream and mature into larvae, the larvae are coughed up into the airways and are then swallowed and enter the digestive system where they mature and reasch juvenille stage at aprox 40 days and then become reproductive adults at around 70 days. - A single female can produce 200,000 eggs daily which are then shed onto the pasture and so the cycle continues.

    The problem with ascarids is that worming doesn't treat the larvae and eggs whilst in the airways ad bloodstream so it's a real problem breaking the cycle, what it does do though is prevent juvelilles reaching maturity and becoming reproductive adults. So even if treatment is given there are timeframes that the cycle can't be broken even if treated. Hence the reason its often given every four weeks to prevent the juveneilles reaching maturity.

    The other problem with Ascarids is unlike redworm and tape worm Ascarid eggs can lay dormant on pasture for up to ten years and unlike red worm and tape worm aren't killed off by extreme temperature, sun baking or freezing. :-/

    You could have a dung sample taken, any positive result even a low count means that there is a reproductive adult and this can quickly escalte into severe burden given that the eggs and larvae can't be killed off.

    The good news is that after 18 months of age horses generally develop natural imunity and becomes much less of a problem unless of course the presence on pasture is excessively high and repetitive infection occurs.
    Interesting (I knew that roundworms were a problem for babies, but didn't realize that these symptoms could be associated with a worm load!)

    Would you recommend having a fecal done, and then if there is even a low count, have her de-wormed with Strongid?
    "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

    "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Doolittle View Post
    Interesting (I knew that roundworms were a problem for babies, but didn't realize that these symptoms could be associated with a worm load!)

    Would you recommend having a fecal done, and then if there is even a low count, have her de-wormed with Strongid?
    Yes start with a worm count but worm with strongid anyway.

    Have had a scenario whereby six foals had a negative worm count and all evacuated adult round worm at six months of age post worming with embotape, hence the discovery of the Ivermectin resistance. Have discussed the protocol with concerned clients about their youngsters and they have been amazed at how quickly their babies have picked up post worming with embotape. Many of which have consulted with their vets and been given antibiotics for them, typically they pick up for a week or so but the snots and cough return.

    Our vet did recomend that the babies were covered with an antibiotic to aid with fighting the inflamation and low grade infection caused by the larvae in the airways.

    Keep us posted how you get on.



  10. #10
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    If you're using Strongid (pyrantel pamoate) or Safeguard/Panacur (fenbendazole) for ascarids, it needs to be a double dose.

    Even then, pyrantel pamoate is not nearly as effective against ascarids as fenbendazole is

    " PRT was tested on two farms, one farm at 1x (6.6 mg base/kg); 42 were foals examined, 16 with ascarid eggs (0% red.) and 33 with strongyle eggs (12% red.) and one farm at 2x (13.2 mg base/kg); 18 foals were examined, 13 with ascarid eggs (23% red.) and 15 with strongyle eggs (27% red.)."

    "
    FBZ at 10 mg/kg was tested on four farms; 76 foals were examined, 50 with ascarid eggs (84% red.) and 62 with strongyle eggs (0% red.);"

    The 10mg/kg of fen is a double dose.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18470536


    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET


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  11. #11
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    This is all very educational!

    Now, my problem will be convincing the BM to go along with all of this--she runs a tightly controlled ship, and my filly is turned out with 2 other fillies (they share the pasture with another horse who is turned out when they are not; IOW there are several horses who might re-infect her if I use the fen!)

    If I get a fecal done on my filly--and it's positive--getting the BM to do a "different de-worming protocol" on 4-5 other horses in addition to mine (and otherwise, is there any point?) will be a challenge!

    Thoughts?
    "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

    "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    If you're using Strongid (pyrantel pamoate) or Safeguard/Panacur (fenbendazole) for ascarids, it needs to be a double dose.

    Even then, pyrantel pamoate is not nearly as effective against ascarids as fenbendazole is

    " PRT was tested on two farms, one farm at 1x (6.6 mg base/kg); 42 were foals examined, 16 with ascarid eggs (0% red.) and 33 with strongyle eggs (12% red.) and one farm at 2x (13.2 mg base/kg); 18 foals were examined, 13 with ascarid eggs (23% red.) and 15 with strongyle eggs (27% red.)."

    "
    FBZ at 10 mg/kg was tested on four farms; 76 foals were examined, 50 with ascarid eggs (84% red.) and 62 with strongyle eggs (0% red.);"

    The 10mg/kg of fen is a double dose.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18470536


    Indeed, as mentioned in my first post the treatment should be a double dose as resistance to both chemicals has been established when given in a single dose. In addition strongyles also have a high established resistance to both chemicals.

    The advantage of Pyrantel is that it is also the most efficient treatment of tape worm and remains the most efficient treatment against pin worm which are also becoming an increased problem with resistance established to the other chemical groups.

    By choosing one chemical that treats three major parasite species you avoid having to overload the youngsters with chemicals from the other groups to treat the other species. Ivermectin, Fenbendazole (five day treatment) and Moxidectin remain efficient against redwom and encysted larvae so should remain part of a worming program at alternative intervals.

    Regretably in our case the five day treatment of fenbendazole had no impact on round worm. The fecal sample taken 14 days post worming revealed that the egg count remained unchanged, thus concluding that the strain of ascaris present on the farm when we moved here in 2008 was also resistant to Fenbendazole.

    There's an indepth article on the Parasites & Vectors website which gathers and publishes research conducted globally.

    It also provides information about the best methods / intervals for control.

    http://www.parasitesandvectors.com/content/2/S2/S8

    Now, my problem will be convincing the BM to go along with all of this--she runs a tightly controlled ship, and my filly is turned out with 2 other fillies (they share the pasture with another horse who is turned out when they are not; IOW there are several horses who might re-infect her if I use the fen!)
    Reinfestation is more than probably going to occur whereby eggs are found on pasture but the article highlights that a degree of tolerance is advised and if a degree of control is implemented it at least reduces the chance of heavy worm burden which can lead to impactation and death.

    Don't forget that it is very important to have a fecal sample taken post worming, this will help your vet to establish if there is indeed resistance which may require worming with the alternative chemical, which ever one you decide to use.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Doolittle View Post
    This is all very educational!

    Now, my problem will be convincing the BM to go along with all of this--she runs a tightly controlled ship, and my filly is turned out with 2 other fillies (they share the pasture with another horse who is turned out when they are not; IOW there are several horses who might re-infect her if I use the fen!)

    If I get a fecal done on my filly--and it's positive--getting the BM to do a "different de-worming protocol" on 4-5 other horses in addition to mine (and otherwise, is there any point?) will be a challenge!

    Thoughts?
    Don't worry about what the other horses are doing. Worry about what yours is able to handle or not. Do the FEC and go from there. Do a FEC 4 weeks past the ERP for the chemical used, for a few go-rounds, and determine her natural immunity in that environment. If she is constantly exposed to parasites and just can't deal with it all herself, then in this environment she may need more regular deworming. If/when she finds herself in a new environment where there is a much larger pasture and/or the other horses are dewormed properly and/or her immune system strengthens, then her need for chemicals may be reduced a bit.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Don't worry about what the other horses are doing. Worry about what yours is able to handle or not. Do the FEC and go from there. Do a FEC 4 weeks past the ERP for the chemical used, for a few go-rounds, and determine her natural immunity in that environment. If she is constantly exposed to parasites and just can't deal with it all herself, then in this environment she may need more regular deworming. If/when she finds herself in a new environment where there is a much larger pasture and/or the other horses are dewormed properly and/or her immune system strengthens, then her need for chemicals may be reduced a bit.
    Okay, will start with doing the fecal. If there is even a *low* ascarid count, she should be dewormed with a double dose of Panacur (should I get the powerpac?, double dose for 5 days?), then take another fecal one month after dosing. If positive, de-worm again?

    ETA: Just texted my BM, she has already de-wormed with double Panacur!

    Soooo. ?? Could it simply be allergies?
    "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

    "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Doolittle View Post
    Okay, will start with doing the fecal. If there is even a *low* ascarid count, she should be dewormed with a double dose of Panacur (should I get the powerpac?, double dose for 5 days?), then take another fecal one month after dosing. If positive, de-worm again?

    ETA: Just texted my BM, she has already de-wormed with double Panacur!

    Soooo. ?? Could it simply be allergies?
    From above
    Regretably in our case the five day treatment of fenbendazole had no impact on round worm. The fecal sample taken 14 days post worming revealed that the egg count remained unchanged, thus concluding that the strain of ascaris present on the farm when we moved here in 2008 was also resistant to Fenbendazole.
    Do the FEC
    Double dose with Strongid
    Repeat the FEC

    (note that false negatives among FEC's may occur re lab technique & sample inconsistencies)

    It could simply be allergies but I'd prefer it was worms, much easier to predict & treat



  16. #16
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    Default Jingles for Ella and her family ~ I had one with similair allergies now outgrown ~

    Morning Dr. D !

    Sending along Jingles & AO for ELLA ~

    I had one young mare who had allergies ``` she out grew the condition ~

    Hoping this is the case for your dear filly too !
    Zu Zu Bailey " IT"S A WONDERFUL LIFE !"



  17. #17
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    Since there hasn't been a FEC before the Panacur, do one in 8 weeks and see what you have.

    You COULD do one in 10 days (post Panacur) and see what's there. If you have a high count, you do need to deworm again, but you've lost some value of the FEC by not having a FEC before the Panacur. So, even if there is a reduction in parasites, you won't know by how much in order to determine how how in/effective it was. However, you'll still have some value by seeing what the state of things are
    ______________________________
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  18. #18
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    While worming correctly is obviously important, my guess is virus ie baby snots.


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