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  1. #21
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    I could be reading something in to that video that isn't there in real life but I didn't like her action behind. She doesn't look right at all to me. Whether that is injury or conformation or even attitude I can't tell of course but it was enough for me to look in another direction.


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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSHEventing View Post
    Bacardi -well,why aren't you taking every available broodmare? maybe you aren't in a position to breed? Same thing applies here. Just because you want something doesn't mean you can have it... Opportunity cost.

    And if you read the bottom that message you will see where I said "However, I agree. I think marketing her as a broodmare prospect is the way to go"

    It would be nice to have posters read the posts before they respond with snarky comments. Please don't say things you wouldn't say to someone elses face.... such a problem on the Chron forum boards.

    ETA: actually, you will also see where I said I had three inquiries? Yeah, one of them was from the aformentioned "well-respected" breeder. I don't think you had all the information So sad you felt the need to reply with what seems to be quite a bit of attitude.

    I also don't understand why the assumption is I'm trying to "get rid of her." If I wanted to just ditch her I'd put her down. However, I'm trying my best to find a situation where she will be HAPPY and USEFUL.
    I've read EVERY SINGLE POST on this thread. And where did my taking ANY broodmare, not to mention "every one", come into the picture. Put down the wine glass, dear.

    I ALWAYS read through every thread before opening my big mouth (unlike 999% of everyone else here), & find those who don't before posting completely self-centered & obnoxious. Why do you feel I haven't read all of the posts on this thread? Definitely not true. I have.

    I stick to my original feeling that if you breed this mare (with all of her temperament problems) & sell her in-foal, that all you're doing is perpetrating poor temperament traits, & also setting into place a buyer keeping the foal & dumping the mare.

    I stated this before. Am not going to change my stance.


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  3. #23
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    I feel that way because of my comment.... "However, I agree. I think marketing her as a broodmare prospect is the way to go" (meaning NOT in foal, a broomare prospect)

    Selling in foal is a moot point... as stated. Three times.

    And, unfortunately I'm not a rescue and don't sell with caveats about what happens to the horses after I sell them. That being said, I'd like to place her in a good situation.

    and Laurie, Maybe you are seeing something, maybe not. Neither vet I've had out has found anything (after physical examinations), nor three different trainers (this is all seeing her in person) so maybe it is just the situation of the video.



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    I could be reading something in to that video that isn't there in real life but I didn't like her action behind. She doesn't look right at all to me. Whether that is injury or conformation or even attitude I can't tell of course but it was enough for me to look in another direction.
    Yep. And it was much more noticeable in the stadium jumping vid than the cross country one for some reason.


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  5. #25
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    Then definitely probably has to do with the attitude and/or tension. Notice the tail on XC? Not wringing? When she is happy she is more relaxed (easy to figure out). She doesn't want to go forward, so goes up and down.

    In the show jumping he was hop cantering in the beginning and that is her protest to foward and moving through her back.



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldernewbie View Post
    Yep. And it was much more noticeable in the stadium jumping vid than the cross country one for some reason.
    Agree with Laurie and Oldernewbie
    NQR behind - maybe why tail wringing


    if there are inquiries and others that think that is the way to go - mazeltov - I have one that I may just retire - "useful" is a difficult concept - rescue and keeping them on somehow? Somewhere?
    I think folks are struggling with the thought that "breeding" her is making her "useful" - since so many throw aways every single day - not to mention the tracks full of mares they want to place -
    But thank you for rescuing her from being tied to a gate !! I am not one inclined to suggest breeding her but if others want her and think otherwise? May she land softly!
    "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



    www.dontlookbackfarm.com


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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3Dogs View Post
    Agree with Laurie and Oldernewbie
    NQR behind - maybe why tail wringing
    Maybe, but if that is the case, vet work up is not finding it.


    Quote Originally Posted by 3Dogs View Post
    "useful" is a difficult concept - rescue and keeping them on somehow? Somewhere?
    I think folks are struggling with the thought that "breeding" her is making her "useful" - since so many throw aways every single day - not to mention the tracks full of mares they want to place -
    But thank you for rescuing her from being tied to a gate !! I am not one inclined to suggest breeding her but if others want her and think otherwise? May she land softly!
    Ah, but one eventers treasure is a dressage riders nightmare! Each discipline is going to have a different set of what is valued.



  8. #28
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    I agree. NQR behind- maybe SI or lower lumbar. Kissing spines? Bone scan might be interesting....- I know you don't want to put more money into her


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  9. #29
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    I had a horse in training that the vet couldn't find anything wrong with either but when he started striding out with both hind legs at once like she is doing in that video I retired him and gave him to a friend of mine. Just because they couldn't find it doesn't mean there was nothing wrong with him.


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  10. #30
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    OP you asked for opinions on breeding this mare, which you have received from some well established, thoughtful folks trying to fulfill your request. I don't understand why you are getting defensive and arguing with people that have only tried to be constructively critical about the mare's suitability as a reproductive animal. The market is saturated with average and mediocre horses for sale. Why not aspire to produce the very best instead of more average and mediocre? (Which will not be easy to sell.)


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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSHEventing View Post
    well, not to put too fine a point on it, but as a riding horse she is unusable. So she is either going to be donated to the University (who wont guarentee anything in terms of alive v. dead) or sold as a broodmare... so, options? please? As much as we'd all love to live in a world where we can collect useless animals as pasture pets, I do not live there. I "saved" her from being tied to a gate on a busy road. I've really tried to do my part, dumped mucho money in to her to try to fix the issue, and turns out that as a riding horse it isn't going to work out. So, plan b.
    Ok, I'm going to try to be gentle, but I have a couple questions.

    First, you've only had her since the first of the year, so about 5 months, right? What changed between the XC video and the show jumping video to make you determine that she's unusable as a riding horse? I've sorted through your past posts referencing her and is it just related to her change in personality with her cycles? How does she go with another rider? Is it possible that you are not a good match?

    Frankly, in the XC video she seems like a very pleasant, game horse. Green, but relaxed and willing.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what
    lies with in us. - Emerson


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  12. #32
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    I loved her attitude and ease in the x-c video. She looks beautiful in the confo shot.

    In the hunter video she went, but did not look happy about it and didn't move so well. I think the tail wringing and wonkier movement was a sign of tension and lack of harmony. It just looked like she wasn't having a good day compared to the other video.
    I think you have done a great job in 6 mos with her, especially considering her past. I wonder if she would work out with more time, patience, and strength and confidence building. I think that tends to tighten the loose screws.


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz 57 View Post
    Ok, I'm going to try to be gentle, but I have a couple questions.

    First, you've only had her since the first of the year, so about 5 months, right? What changed between the XC video and the show jumping video to make you determine that she's unusable as a riding horse? I've sorted through your past posts referencing her and is it just related to her change in personality with her cycles? How does she go with another rider? Is it possible that you are not a good match?

    Frankly, in the XC video she seems like a very pleasant, game horse. Green, but relaxed and willing.
    I was PMing with the OP and was the one who described the phenomenon as being similar to PTSD in a human, except we can't talk to the horses to help them get through whatever the issue is. I think you've seen more of my story with my guy? He's great 99% of the time, but once every few months something sets him off and it's like he's re-living less kind treatment in his past. He's super sweet, wants to please, tries to be a good boy - then goes into these moments where he's just not fully there. It's definitely a history thing from what I understand with my horse, and appears it is for this horse, too. I think she just has the problems more frequently than the maybe 4 times in a year my guy does, which is why it's a big issue.

    By the way - the movement in the first video definitely looked off, but I didn't necessarily hold that as her regular movement, and suspect the x-country is what you'd be expecting. My TB holds tension and looks extremely lame in front while tense, then works out of it and looks nice. Every time he gets tense, consistently, with the same issues in his movement - which are not there on the rides he's not tense. (And tense does not equal the days where he appears to be somewhere else mentally, but rather excited about a new situation, trailers pulling in and out, whatever. The kind of sane tense you work through and are fine.)

    To me, I like my horses sensitive and requiring kind and consistent treatment, with minds which can be blown in the wrong home and with inconsistent and harsh discipline. I've had the kind of horses who are just steady and fabulous, and despite loving working with them, just don't have the same kind of click as I do with the sensitive ones. This mare sounds like she's had the kind of treatment sensitive horses can't handle, rather than that she's a nut. There are some popular bloodlines I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole for their spookiness, their massive bucking tendencies, or their pigheadedness. The kind of temperament it sounds like this mare has is actually the kind of temperament I find a joy when the horse hasn't been mentally affected by clumsy treatment elsewhere.
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

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  14. #34
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    I have related my experience, but I'll add one more thought with an opinion.

    The horse's mind is a huge factor. That goes doubly for the ammy breeder and her market. That's because it's hard to breed the mind and the body that a professional will want all in one package. If you are going to produce a physically stunning horse with a tough mind, your market gets very small, very fast. It's hard to raise that horse and then hard (plus expensive) to put that horse in front of the people who can ride it.

    In other words, OP, even if you think her problem is not physical (or is, but you think it doesn't signify a congenital weakness), you'd do well to scrutinize the quality of this mare's mind.

    In still more words: If the expert breeders you spoke to like her body standing still, do they like her moving? Do they like her mind (in the sense that they could see producing the kind of foal you or some other ammy breeder could raise or market)?

    I have a dear friend with 3 or 4 of these kinds of horses. She has a wonderful eye and has bred some great athletes. But good lord, they are mentally complicated. Because she didn't have the money to simply send these horses off to a pro for a solid 2 or so years of civilizing bootcamp, she still has them.... at 10 or so.
    The armchair saddler
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  15. #35
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    You should breed her to Harvard. You can't go wrong with his foals and they're usually sold in utero.
    "My ideal horse is the horse that I fall in love with again every morning when I see his face hanging over the stable door, looking for breakfast. " - Jim Wofford



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSHEventing View Post
    Purchaser had many personal issues and mare ended up in really bad care (with a giant scar where she almost lost her leg i.e., life) and then purchaser found her tied to her front gate on a busy highway as a 6 year old..... I can deal with the handing issues, but she doesn't want to play under saddle.
    She doesn't want to play under saddle because she is hurting. Which leg did she almost lose? She is definitely not right behind, and even if the injury was to a front leg, there is something else going on. As another poster mentioned, she appears to have an SI issue, kissing spines, or maybe even hock / stifle problems. It would be interesting to see some trot video...

    As for the vettings - were you using a generalist, or a really good sports medicine vet?

    And if you are determined to sell her in foal, your biggest market is hunters, but so many hunter breeders use TB mares, you are going to have to use a stallion that will make her stand out from the crowd. Maybe the hunter breeders on this board can make some recommendations, but whatever you do, don't send her to Grey Fox Farms (and if you don't know why, check out the many threads on Grey Fox / Redwine).


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  17. #37
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    You might consider Apiro for a hunter breeding. I think he's lovely and has a great jump. By all accounts his temperament is great too.

    I also really like Sea Accounts (TB) and Tatendrang (Trak) for eventing. Both are performing well and seem to have the temperament you'd need also.

    I do like your mare, I think she's lovely and the XC video shows some real promise but I'd be worried about the "mental" stuff you describe and how that might affect a foal, maybe enough to turn me off of her, maybe not. I'd have to meet her to know for sure.



  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    And if you are determined to sell her in foal, your biggest market is hunters, but so many hunter breeders use TB mares, you are going to have to use a stallion that will make her stand out from the crowd. Maybe the hunter breeders on this board can make some recommendations, but whatever you do, don't send her to Grey Fox Farms (and if you don't know why, check out the many threads on Grey Fox / Redwine).
    Gray Fox Farm where Redwine used to stand no longer exists for the most part except on the internet. Her website is still up but that is about it as Redwine and Aloha are in Canada and Romantic Star is still in the custody of the humane society. I bring this up because Grey Fox Farm is very much still in business and has nothing to do with the Jill Burnell fiasco so I assume they would like us to spell carefully.


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  19. #39
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    Personally, I would just list the mare for sale or giveaway. It is up the prospective buyer whether they want her to ride or breed or have as a pasture ornament. Rather than trying to determine what she should do in her next home, just focus on finding her that next home. Maybe someone else would think they could try something different and get past her tension under saddle, maybe someone else has the resources or interest to breed a mare like that and are willing to risk the temperment. Ultimately it doesn't matter what they want to do, be honest about her shortcomings and her strengths and advertise her. I think that is the bottom line here: she is not a horse you want to keep, why that is isn't really relevant. Sell her, and allow the prospective buyers to determine what they want her for. Just because you think she is unrideable, someone else may not, you never know, she is lovely in the cross country video.


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  20. #40
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    While being a broodie may be her future, I think you'll be hard pressed to "sell" her as one...give her away to be a broodie is more likely. Why do I say that? Well, in the last 6 months I have been given three mares. One is a Windfall out of a Hann/TB mare, one is a Quaterback out of a SWB mare who's half (true half) brother was a 4* eventer (WEG team) and the other a TB mare who's owner not only gave her to us, but paid close to 1k to have her shipped to us and agreed to take her back if we don't like what she produces.

    So, what I'm saying is that it's a tough market for unproven broodies, especially those with any "issues".

    If you do decide to breed her and try to sell in foal, then temperament and disposition of the stallion would be paramount in mind. Do your research, talk to the stallion owners, ask them for names/numbers of foal owners. Unfortunately, there are a lot of stallions out there who have less than ideal dispositions (discounted as having "stallion prescence") who are touted as having great temperaments.

    Just my .02
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