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  1. #181
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    Mandy-

    I can't speak for lots, it just seems that the perception is that it is unacceptable to put a horse down unless - dangerous, badly injured, no hope for recovery, bad sickness, etc.

    Just from conversations I've had with a few vets, not a poll I did.

    I guess what I'm thinking of are people who for whatever reason, want to sell their horse. Start out with the best intentions. Then time goes by, horse still not sold, maybe their financial situation changes, whatever.
    They then get desperate. What to they do? they may want to do what's best, but now they are stuck - for whatever reason.

    Can they call the vet to euthanize?

    It's not the greatest solution, but better than than the low end sales, the slaughter pipeline, at least to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by MandyVA View Post
    The AVMA supports horse slaughter, but vets won't put down a horse just because? Perhaps THAT is the problem, it it's really the case.

    If there was really a supply of horses needing euthanasia, there would be plenty of industrious cowboys advertising their willingness to come and shoot them.
    My big man - April 27, 1986 - September 04, 2008-
    You're with me every moment, my big red horse.

    Be kinder than necessary, for everyone is fighting a battle of some kind.



  2. #182
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    Flat broke and can't afford to euth? I remember we discussed this pretty thoroughly on another thread.

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...ionals-to-take

    There's another...still looking.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  3. #183
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    Brandy, I know what you mean...it just doesn't seem like those people are really the ones sending horses to slaughter. I don't know anybody, who knows anybody, who tried everything to network a horse, could not find even a companion home, could not get a vet to euth, could not get a friend to shoot...and took it to the nearest auction as the last resort. People assume that's why horses go to slaughter, but it doesn't pan out if you look at the age and health of horses on the trucks. I think it's total fiction that slaughter is needed for those people. When Laura finds the other thread, about "who has an extra $500 lying around to euth their horse?"...
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns



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  4. #184
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    Thank for jogging the memory bank, Mandy. Here you go, Alagirl in all her glory. But you really must read the other thread as well.

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...g-around/page3
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandyVA View Post
    What would they do if it had a broken leg? A lot more horses die from causes other than slaughter every year in the US, and somehow people manage.
    You are right, according to some statistics, 90% of horses die from many causes and 10% go to slaughter.

    What I wonder, why do we not have a drive to ask everyone with a horse that dies or is going to be euthanize to be responsible and have it rendered or slaughtered, not waste it in the ground, maybe contaminating it or in the local trash dump?

    Well, we don't demand others do with their horses, even when they are going to or died, that they do what others want, so why get so up in arms about that 10% that some use one more time thru slaughter, as there is a demand for those, that are not wanted by the horse world for any other and are going to die anyway?

    I think that those that object to slaughter as "distasteful" and "not in my culture" are just following animal rights extremist propaganda, if they know it or not, when demanding those others now don't slaughter that 10% of horses.

    As for any other, the abuse and mismanagement card those against slaughter love to use, that is addressed by working on the abuse and mismanagement, just as society does in any other processes we manage.
    No one has drives to ban churches and schools because there are so many children abused there, as per the news?


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  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Flat broke and can't afford to euth? I remember we discussed this pretty thoroughly on another thread.

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...ionals-to-take

    There's another...still looking.
    pst:
    book mark them for quick access!
    Quote Originally Posted by fargaloo View Post
    Do you not understand how asking "why now?" is EXACTLY part of the reason why assault victims feel silenced?



  7. #187
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    I guess there is always a bullet instead of paying for euth but out of sight out of mind comes to mind. A lot of people couldn't bring themselves to shoot their beloved horse, yet they send it on down the road and can sleep well dreaming of how old blackie found an amazing kid to take care of. Really I don't know what the answer is. I'm not here to argue but putting out thoughts and truthfully a lot of what I read here educates me further as well as opens my mind to other things. I just want a peaceful conversation. I really hadn't been in all the other threads on this much because they always become a fight and bad mouthing one another if you don't agree. I'm opened minded with things and just putting my thoughts out there. But even if they shoot blackie they still have to pay to dispose of him and where I'm from there is no where except pay someone to haul horse and bury on their property which is about 500 or bury in your property 250 or cremate a dollar a pound. Idk what people do when a horse breaks a leg or what not. My farriers horse did that and they buried him on their property because they had room and he has a tractor and bucket to dig the hole, cost him nothing but the vet euth. Like i said though there is always a zoo or university to look into. I have been to one auction, don't have them much around my area. The one I went to was not bad. Horses sold cheap but all were in good health it seemed and I didn't see a kill pen at all, so I can't really comment on what's there except what I see online photos of NH and Camelot etc and what people say. I maybe ignorant in some ways in this topic but this is why I throw my thoughts out and get conversation about pros, cons, agree or disagree but I'm not here to fight with anyone on it.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole


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  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabicon View Post
    I guess there is always a bullet instead of paying for euth but out of sight out of mind comes to mind. A lot of people couldn't bring themselves to shoot their beloved horse, yet they send it on down the road and can sleep well dreaming of how old blackie found an amazing kid to take care of. Really I don't know what the answer is. I'm not here to argue but putting out thoughts and truthfully a lot of what I read here educates me further as well as opens my mind to other things. I just want a peaceful conversation. I really hadn't been in all the other threads on this much because they always become a fight and bad mouthing one another if you don't agree. I'm opened minded with things and just putting my thoughts out there. But even if they shoot blackie they still have to pay to dispose of him and where I'm from there is no where except pay someone to haul horse and bury on their property which is about 500 or bury in your property 250 or cremate a dollar a pound. Idk what people do when a horse breaks a leg or what not. My farriers horse did that and they buried him on their property because they had room and he has a tractor and bucket to dig the hole, cost him nothing but the vet euth. Like i said though there is always a zoo or university to look into. I have been to one auction, don't have them much around my area. The one I went to was not bad. Horses sold cheap but all were in good health it seemed and I didn't see a kill pen at all, so I can't really comment on what's there except what I see online photos of NH and Camelot etc and what people say. I maybe ignorant in some ways in this topic but this is why I throw my thoughts out and get conversation about pros, cons, agree or disagree but I'm not here to fight with anyone on it.
    well, our specialists believe that because they can bury 1200 pounds of contaminated, toxic bio waste in their backyard everybody in the country has this option.
    Everybody who tells them that it might be not an option or even illegal is an <insert derogatory term of choice>.

    The options are dwindling, since a lot of old fashioned disposal services are also becoming increasingly rare - or refuse to pick up horses. All the things you can learn from COTH, if you care to listen. Alas....

    We are left with the following problem:
    We have a horse we cannot care for any more.
    We can't sell it without extended background check and multiple home visits
    We may never take it to an auction barn
    We can't euth it, unless it's at death's door anyhow.
    We can't shoot it (believe it or not, in some jurisdictions it is considered cruel!)
    We can't give it away, lest it might end up on the truck, regardless our best effords
    And of course turning it out to fend for itself is out of the question.

    Can't put it on blocks and wait for things to improve....

    So yeah, there are pockets of he horse world where it only costs you the bullet and the time/labor of a backhoe....but I have also heard 1000k and and up, cremation only....

    Of course, if you are that broke, you should not own a horse....but - hmm - how do you get rid of it when you find yourself this poor all over sudden! Since the market collapsed, tons of good horses can't be given away for free...much less when you have to stop the bleeding.
    Quote Originally Posted by fargaloo View Post
    Do you not understand how asking "why now?" is EXACTLY part of the reason why assault victims feel silenced?


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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandyVA View Post
    Brandy, I know what you mean...it just doesn't seem like those people are really the ones sending horses to slaughter. I don't know anybody, who knows anybody, who tried everything to network a horse, could not find even a companion home, could not get a vet to euth, could not get a friend to shoot...and took it to the nearest auction as the last resort. People assume that's why horses go to slaughter, but it doesn't pan out if you look at the age and health of horses on the trucks. I think it's total fiction that slaughter is needed for those people. When Laura finds the other thread, about "who has an extra $500 lying around to euth their horse?"...
    The primary people dumping horses into the slaughter pipeline are commercial operators--camps, riding schools, trail ride strings, pony rides and carnivals PLUS dealers with something unsaleable. The race tracks are also a player, though the peer pressure (from US!) is making that less and less acceptable and they now have to sneak it. Overbreeders out west (for the tax shelter and little more) are egregious SH feeders, as are the Amish in the midwest and East. But any horse can get sold down-river if he goes through enough hands.

    More people should be informed, and COTH is great for that, about free leases, share-boarding, inexpensive retirement barns, and programs like the euthanasia assistance above; in short, ALTERNATIVES.

    BTW, the people "turning them loose" or "flat broke" aren't sending them to slaughter, by definition--if they'd done so, they'd have gotten paid! That's a red-herring argument. The people putting the horses on those trucks are doing it with their eyes wide open because $50 or $100 means more to them than compassion, common decency, or their reputation in the business.

    BTW--if you know and can prove that some barn, dealer, camp, or trainer IS dumping horses, run it up the Social Media flagpole! Maybe that's something all the mummies of the little girls who come for lessons need to know, eh? Just because it's "legal" doesn't make it acceptable. Maybe they can decide their reputation is worth more than their last deposit of blood-money.


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  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    well, our specialists believe that because they can bury 1200 pounds of contaminated, toxic bio waste in their backyard everybody in the country has this option.
    Everybody who tells them that it might be not an option or even illegal is an <insert derogatory term of choice>.

    The options are dwindling, since a lot of old fashioned disposal services are also becoming increasingly rare - or refuse to pick up horses. All the things you can learn from COTH, if you care to listen. Alas....

    We are left with the following problem:
    We have a horse we cannot care for any more.
    We can't sell it without extended background check and multiple home visits
    We may never take it to an auction barn
    We can't euth it, unless it's at death's door anyhow.
    We can't shoot it (believe it or not, in some jurisdictions it is considered cruel!)
    We can't give it away, lest it might end up on the truck, regardless our best effords
    And of course turning it out to fend for itself is out of the question.

    Can't put it on blocks and wait for things to improve....

    So yeah, there are pockets of he horse world where it only costs you the bullet and the time/labor of a backhoe....but I have also heard 1000k and and up, cremation only....

    Of course, if you are that broke, you should not own a horse....but - hmm - how do you get rid of it when you find yourself this poor all over sudden! Since the market collapsed, tons of good horses can't be given away for free...much less when you have to stop the bleeding.
    How do you know that? Last I looked, you don't even live in the United States, nor are you a horse owner. Oracle of Delphi in the Sky, are we? Or maybe just a noise machine. The scenarios you cite seldom even apply, as per many people's other posts. You will very seldom see private owners consigning Ol' Dobbin to the KB's. WEAK-WILLED people let bottom-feeders do their dirty work FOR them.

    The bottom line is to make proper provisions for ALL your pets (and family!) long BEFORE you're so down and out you're incapable. I would bet this applies to a vanishingly small number of mostly incompetent horse owners to begin with.


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  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    The primary people dumping horses into the slaughter pipeline are commercial operators--camps, riding schools, trail ride strings, pony rides and carnivals PLUS dealers with something unsaleable. The race tracks are also a player, though the peer pressure (from US!) is making that less and less acceptable and they now have to sneak it. Overbreeders out west (for the tax shelter and little more) are egregious SH feeders, as are the Amish in the midwest and East. But any horse can get sold down-river if he goes through enough hands.

    More people should be informed, and COTH is great for that, about free leases, share-boarding, inexpensive retirement barns, and programs like the euthanasia assistance above; in short, ALTERNATIVES.

    BTW, the people "turning them loose" or "flat broke" aren't sending them to slaughter, by definition--if they'd done so, they'd have gotten paid! That's a red-herring argument. The people putting the horses on those trucks are doing it with their eyes wide open because $50 or $100 means more to them than compassion, common decency, or their reputation in the business.

    BTW--if you know and can prove that some barn, dealer, camp, or trainer IS dumping horses, run it up the Social Media flagpole! Maybe that's something all the mummies of the little girls who come for lessons need to know, eh? Just because it's "legal" doesn't make it acceptable. Maybe they can decide their reputation is worth more than their last deposit of blood-money.
    Define "dumping horses"?
    Not everyone thinks that taking their horse to a horse sale and have someone else bid and buy it is evil.
    Be careful who you are running up the flag pole accusing of blood money, whatever you mean by that.
    Some may take offense to being accused without merit.



  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    How do you know that? Last I looked, you don't even live in the United States, nor are you a horse owner. Oracle of Delphi in the Sky, are we? Or maybe just a noise machine. The scenarios you cite seldom even apply, as per many people's other posts. You will very seldom see private owners consigning Ol' Dobbin to the KB's. WEAK-WILLED people let bottom-feeders do their dirty work FOR them.

    The bottom line is to make proper provisions for ALL your pets (and family!) long BEFORE you're so down and out you're incapable. I would bet this applies to a vanishingly small number of mostly incompetent horse owners to begin with.
    Personal attacks are not acceptable, as per the COTH rules and that post just about is a poster child for it.



  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    How do you know that? Last I looked, you don't even live in the United States, nor are you a horse owner. Oracle of Delphi in the Sky, are we? Or maybe just a noise machine. The scenarios you cite seldom even apply, as per many people's other posts. You will very seldom see private owners consigning Ol' Dobbin to the KB's. WEAK-WILLED people let bottom-feeders do their dirty work FOR them.

    The bottom line is to make proper provisions for ALL your pets (and family!) long BEFORE you're so down and out you're incapable. I would bet this applies to a vanishingly small number of mostly incompetent horse owners to begin with.
    Oh, deary, your argument loses as soon as you have to resort to personal attacks.

    Maybe you need to hone your sleuthing skills, I certainly dropped enough hints as to were I live over the last 11 years. Although, I have to grant you this: I have moved once, about 30 miles down the road!

    Hint: It ain't in the Ivory Tower.

    and yes, deary, the provisions you make for all your pets can be out the window in a heartbeat. In my part of Lala Land, putting food on the table precedes animal having a cushy life.

    And I am sure these people will appreciate being labeled by you in such kind and caring manner.
    Weak willed and incompetent. Wow, just wow....condescending much?

    But for the Grace of G-d here I go. I can only say, a bit of humility would serve you well. Karma is an old B.....takes her time, but when she finds your behind for all those little indiscretions, it hurts.
    Quote Originally Posted by fargaloo View Post
    Do you not understand how asking "why now?" is EXACTLY part of the reason why assault victims feel silenced?


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  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Oh, deary, your argument loses as soon as you have to resort to personal attacks.

    Maybe you need to hone your sleuthing skills, I certainly dropped enough hints as to were I live over the last 11 years. Although, I have to grant you this: I have moved once, about 30 miles down the road!

    Hint: It ain't in the Ivory Tower.

    and yes, deary, the provisions you make for all your pets can be out the window in a heartbeat. In my part of Lala Land, putting food on the table precedes animal having a cushy life.

    And I am sure these people will appreciate being labeled by you in such kind and caring manner.
    Weak willed and incompetent. Wow, just wow....condescending much?

    But for the Grace of G-d here I go. I can only say, a bit of humility would serve you well. Karma is an old B.....takes her time, but when she finds your behind for all those little indiscretions, it hurts.
    Considering both the sources above, that's really a howler!

    Everything I really needed to say is in my Post#66 above.

    "Ignore" IS my friend.


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  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Guess why?
    Because it is not PC to be stalked and assaulted by animal rights protesters, not because it was not a good way to haul the horses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Sweet. it has been proven time and time again that a lot of thee regulations and rules have zip to do with welfare. Or knowledge.
    You can assume that the welfare was not high on the priority when they allowed the DDs to be phased out over 5 years or so.
    I'm still waiting for both of you to provide evidence to support your claims.

    Alagirl, DDs were not "phased out" over 5 years ago. They were deemed illegal for transport October 7, 2011.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
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  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    I'm still waiting for both of you to provide evidence to support your claims.

    Alagirl, DDs were not "phased out" over 5 years ago. They were deemed illegal for transport October 7, 2011.
    yes, and prior to that the law was on the book....11-5=6 so around 2006.

    phased out over a period of 5 years...phase - time frame....you know....
    Quote Originally Posted by fargaloo View Post
    Do you not understand how asking "why now?" is EXACTLY part of the reason why assault victims feel silenced?



  17. #197
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    Question, how are cows slaughtered? Is it the bolt gun like horses? How do they travel? Are they crammed in like horses? Really just a question because if cows are not treated this way why would they let horses? Also if they are treated like this what is the difference since they are both livestock? Really trying to understand the arguments and maybe my ignorance shows on this subject but it is something I have never truly wanted to think about because I do eat meat yet I would never knowingly eat a horse for sure no matter if it became the norm.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole



  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabicon View Post
    Question, how are cows slaughtered? Is it the bolt gun like horses? How do they travel? Are they crammed in like horses? Really just a question because if cows are not treated this way why would they let horses? Also if they are treated like this what is the difference since they are both livestock? Really trying to understand the arguments and maybe my ignorance shows on this subject but it is something I have never truly wanted to think about because I do eat meat yet I would never knowingly eat a horse for sure no matter if it became the norm.
    yes, they are killed by bolt.
    yes they travel in trailers, tightly packed.
    I am assuming they are still allowed in double deckers.

    and the difference is more people eat beef than ride horses. All the other stuff is straw man arguments.
    Quote Originally Posted by fargaloo View Post
    Do you not understand how asking "why now?" is EXACTLY part of the reason why assault victims feel silenced?



  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabicon View Post
    Question, how are cows slaughtered? Is it the bolt gun like horses? How do they travel? Are they crammed in like horses? Really just a question because if cows are not treated this way why would they let horses? Also if they are treated like this what is the difference since they are both livestock? Really trying to understand the arguments and maybe my ignorance shows on this subject but it is something I have never truly wanted to think about because I do eat meat yet I would never knowingly eat a horse for sure no matter if it became the norm.
    Any time you haul live weight, that weight may shift on you.
    You have to load them tight in there, so they don't all move to the back end or the right or left side and stress and/or topple trailers.

    With cows, it depends on what kind of "cows" you are talking about, you sort them before you haul them.
    The same with horses, the dude ranches would set the DD trailers where the larger ones were loaded on the bottom and the smaller ones on top and if there was not a whole load, you would not fill the smaller compartments in the nose and "jail", put most in the middle, snug so they didn't move around on you.

    Those that haul regularly know how to do so and why.

    I have seen some of those much maligned traders loading after a sale and chewing up the sale barn workers if they were not very careful with their animals and brought them up to the loading deck gently and in the order asked for.
    Some sale barn workers have been fired for just not learning how to move livestock properly.
    Most people are caring, the few that are not give the rest a bad name and are not going to stay in business very long.
    But, while they are, the rest gets the blame for those few.


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  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    yes, they are killed by bolt.
    yes they travel in trailers, tightly packed.
    I am assuming they are still allowed in double deckers.

    and the difference is more people eat beef than ride horses. All the other stuff is straw man arguments.
    Transportation is NOT a straw man argument. The AVMA, which just so happens to be PRO slaughter, states why double deckers should not be used for hauling horses:

    The AVMA believes trailers on the road containing two or more levels to transport horses are not adequately equipped to humanely meet the space needs of a horse based on the following observations:

    A horse needs a minimum of 7 to 8 feet of height per level to have the ability to fully raise its head while standing

    If such a conveyance was designed with two levels at the minimum height requirement for humane transport, the trailer would be at least 14 feet tall without taking into account the height added by tires

    The maximum height of a trailer on interstate highways in urban areas is 14 Feet and 16 feet in rural areas

    No trailer with two or more levels that meets the minimum height requirements of humane transport would clear a bridge in an urban environment and most likely not clear a bridge in a rural environment


    Do you not consider the AVMA to be a credible source for information?

    So much for your claim that horses are fine standing around with their heads at the same height as their withers.
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